Change my mash / sparge mothod?

[Pumbaa]

OK normally I have been using 1 qt per pound for my mash then fly sparging with 2 quarts per pound and saving all the liquid and boiling it down to my desired volume. So if i was looking at a 12 lbs of grain (not uncommon for me) I would be looking at 3 gallons of mash water and 6 gallon of sparge water. That would mean I have about 8 - 8.5 gallons in my kettle and a LONG arse time to boil down to 6.5 gallons when I would do my first hops addition with 60 minutes left in the boil so I end up with 5.5 gallons in my fermentor.

This method has worked for me so far but to be honest it's a PITA and I'm kind tired for boils lasting up to 5 hours. I checked out www.howtobrew.com again and ws re-reading the mash / sparge procedures and read

When all is said and done though, single rest infusion mashing is the easiest method for producing an all-grain wort. The most common homebrewig mash schedule consists of a water-to-grain ratio of 1.5-2 quarts per pound, and holding the mash between 150-155F for 1 hour. Probably 90% of the beer styles in the world today are produced with this method.

Sparging is the rinsing of the grain bed to extract as much of the sugars from the grain as possible without extracting mouth-puckering tannins from the grain husks. Typically, 1.5 times as much water is used for sparging as for mashing (e.g., 8 lbs. malt at 2 qt./lb. = 4 gallon mash, so 6 gallons of sparge water). The temperature of the sparge water is important. The water should be no more than 170°F, as husk tannins become more soluble above this temperature, depending on wort pH. This could lead to astringency in the beer. . . .
Continuous Sparging usually results in better extractions. The wort is re-circulated and drained until about an inch of wort remains above the grain bed. The sparge water is gently added, as necessary, to keep the fluid at least at that level. The goal is to gradually replace the wort with the water, stopping the sparge when the gravity is 1.008 or when enough wort has been collected, whichever comes first. This method demands more attention by the brewer, but can produce a higher yield.

Following this I would use 4.5 gallons for the mash and 6.75 gallons for the sparge. Thats a total of about 10 gallons of wort BUT you only save 6.5 gallons to boil for 1 hour and end up with 5.5 in the primary. Thats about 3.5 gallons of wort wasted . . . or is it?

Am I reading this wrong?

Any input or advice would be GREATLY appreciated.

 

[Yuri_Rage]

The wort is re-circulated and drained until about an inch of wort remains above the grain bed. The sparge water is gently added, as necessary, to keep the fluid at least at that level. The goal is to gradually replace the wort with the water, stopping the sparge when the gravity is 1.008 or when enough wort has been collected, whichever comes first.

You've got to add more water than you eventually want to boil. This method actually suggests stopping the sparge when you have enough wort for your boil...or continuing until you've got a pretty diluted wort draining into the brew kettle. So yes, you will use (or at least prepare to use) a larger volume of water than the volume of wort you will create. If I've been studying correctly, continuing a sparge beyond that point will actually decrease your apparent efficiency.

 

[Chairman Cheyco]

Have you thought about batch sparging? After the initial run-off all you need to do is figure out how much more wort you need to hit your boil volume and batch-sparge with exatly that much water. Run off again and done!

 

[Pumbaa]

yeah I have thought about it but I really dont want to have lower efficencies. Call me cheep or what not but to me it just doesnt make sense to batch sparge and buy more grain if I dont mind fly sparging and spending a extra 90 minutes on it.

What kind of efficency would I be looking at if I batch sparged?

 

[Chairman Cheyco]

Well using the above method, I have hit high 70s the last two brews. What I do is take the water needed and divide it into two equal volumes and do two sparges. I was just breaking 70% with one large volume sparge. The more times you sparge, the higher your efficiency, but you will obviously run into other problems.

 

[the_bird]

So, help me understand batch sparging, I know it's easy, but I'm a *******. You have a link handy for a description of the process?

EDIT: Forget it, Dude posted something recently that looks real helpful.

Let me ask one thing, though; since I've got a stainless steel hose braid in my lauter-tun, do I need to worry about recirculating the initial runnings? Won't the braid do the job of making sure the loose particules don't end up in my wort?

 

[Chairman Cheyco]

http://www.hbd.org/cascade/dennybrew/

http://cruisenews.net/brewing/infusion/

These are both really good references.

 

[the_bird]

So, if I'm reading the Dennybrew link right, does this mean that I don't have to worry about Ph levels if I'm batch sparging? That's one thing I'm a little worried about, the dude at the HBS couldn't help me very much in this regard. I use bottled spring water, I don't know how to check it's Ph or how to adjust (other than adding gypsum, not sure how much). Does this mean I can just fuggetaboutit?

 

[Chairman Cheyco]

You should go listen to the "Batch Sparging with Denny Conn" show on the brewing network. In it he says that he monitored his pH during the sparge for a really long time over a great number of batches and he said that it never even came close to being in the red zone. So yeah, you can officially fuggetaboutit. Heat - pour - stir - drain.

 

[utahusker]

So, if I'm reading the Dennybrew link right, does this mean that I don't have to worry about Ph levels if I'm batch sparging? That's one thing I'm a little worried about, the dude at the HBS couldn't help me very much in this regard. I use bottled spring water, I don't know how to check it's Ph or how to adjust (other than adding gypsum, not sure how much). Does this mean I can just fuggetaboutit?

That's it

 

[the_bird]

Beauty.

So, should I forget I even own a small bottle of gypsum now? Would a small amount (how small?) help in the mash?

Thanks, guys! Can't wait until Sunday!

 

[Waldo]

yeah I have thought about it but I really dont want to have lower efficencies. Call me cheep or what not but to me it just doesnt make sense to batch sparge and buy more grain if I dont mind fly sparging and spending a extra 90 minutes on it.

What kind of efficency would I be looking at if I batch sparged?

The low efficiency myth is alive and well

I never drop below 80% and have gotten as high as 85% you need a good crush and lots of stirring before you vorlauf.

 

[the_bird]

(kinda)

How do you calculate efficiency? Link?

 

[Chairman Cheyco]

So, should I forget I even own a small bottle of gypsum now? Would a small amount (how small?) help in the mash?

Well... There is no easy answer here. You may need it in a recipe for reasons other than mash pH. Percieved bitterness, and color can be affected by water chemistry, so there is more to it than just mashing. If you're concerned about pH, I'd try to find some of that 5.2 buffer. It's supposed to work like a damn. The thing to remember about batch sparging is that in the process of doing it, you're not going to have pH problems if your pH was good to start with.

 

[the_bird]

Ah, so that's why I was seeing it in all kinds of stout recipes. I was hoping the HBS had some of the BF buffer, but they don't; I'll have to order some online, I suppose.

 

[Waldo]

I use BeerSmith, you calculate Brewhouse efficiency based on target volume, efficiency into the boiler and efficiency into the fermentor. Simply put when you create a recipe and make said recipe you check your OG and then compare it to what BeerSmith had projected. I base all of my recipes on 80% efficiency and my OG's are usually right on the money some times a point or two over.

 

[Chairman Cheyco]

You may not need it, try brewing a few times without. If your beer isn't turning out then try it, but I wouldn't worry all that much about it at this point.

 

[Exo]

That's a lot of boiling Pumbaa!! I use about 1qt/1# and when I fly sparge I just fill about 5gal into the HLT and when I hit around 6.5 to 7gal total volume (target 5.5) in my boiling vessel I stop sparging. Granted I've only done two batches with my cheap-ass bucket system but I've had 77 and 83% efficiencies. There has to be a point where your not doing your beer any good by rinsing it to much.

ProMash usually hits the water amounts pretty dang close...

 

[Pumbaa]

Simply put when you create a recipe and make said recipe you check your OG and then compare it to what BeerSmith had projected. I base all of my recipes on 80% efficiency and my OG's are usually right on the money some times a point or two over.

Exactly when are you checking your OG right after the Sparge while it's in your kettle befor the boil OR after the boil when it's in your primary or both? If both which are you using to figure out your efficency?

BTW it looks like I'll be batch sparging for now on

 

[Desert_Sky]

I batch sparge, but Im still doing a mashout for 10 minutes. Is this really even neccesary with batch sparging?

 

[Chairman Cheyco]

Exactly when are you checking your OG right after the Sparge while it's in your kettle befor the boil OR after the boil when it's in your primary or both? If both which are you using to figure out your efficency?

It's most accurate to take your gravity measurment in the kettle before the boil. That way you don't have to deal with the inaccuarcies of volume losses due to boiling, kettle dead space, boilovers, chillers, hopbacks etc.

BTW it looks like I'll be batch sparging for now on

Another convert!

 

[Axegod]

Following this I would use 4.5 gallons for the mash and 6.75 gallons for the sparge. Thats a total of about 10 gallons of wort BUT you only save 6.5 gallons to boil for 1 hour and end up with 5.5 in the primary. Thats about 3.5 gallons of wort wasted . . . or is it?

Am I reading this wrong?

Any input or advice would be GREATLY appreciated.

Grain absorbs water ! You will lose about 1.5ish gallons of mash water to the grain.

A Quick calculation on promash shows about 6.5-7 gallons pre-boil..and 5.5 afterboil. Then there is loosing some at various stages for the deadspaces, transfering, ect. which is close to the final of 5G.

Cheers.

 

[Pumbaa]

yeah I know the grain absorbs some but I was at work and just estimating, thats why I used "about"

I need to get a laptop so I can have my brewing programs at work, plus some games or somestuff:rockin:

It's most accurate to take your gravity measurment in the kettle before the boil. That way you don't have to deal with the inaccuarcies of volume losses due to boiling, kettle dead space, boilovers, chillers, hopbacks etc.

Wouldnt your OG be what it is in the Primary though? Your gravity of the 6.5 gallons in the kettle is going to be less then the 5.5 you end up with in the primary

 

[Chairman Cheyco]

Wouldnt your OG be what it is in the Primary though? Your gravity of the 6.5 gallons in the kettle is going to be less then the 5.5 you end up with in the primary

Yes, it will be the same. The difficulty is knowing your exact volumes. When you use promash, it takes into account all your losses in your various bits of equipment and unless you know all that you'll get a wonky reading because the error compounds. Pre-boil in the kettle is one measurement - no room for compound errors.

 

[Waldo]

I'm very particular about water amounts, I use 1.3 qts water to 1 pound grain for my mash, I always top off my mash to equal 1/2 of my preboil amount, and Yes I still do a 10 minute rest before vorlauf, I'm afraid not to, don't want to mess with what works for me. I sparge with what ever amount I need to get to my preboil volume. I use to check the gravity on my wort preboil, but eventually gave it up, the main reason for checking preboil gravity is if you are short you can add some DME to make up the difference. The next important thing is to know your system, I know I boil off .66 gallons every 30 minutes so I rarely miss my post boil volumes. To get an accurate efficiency percentage you need to have a plan, and then end up with the numbers matching the plan.

 

[boo boo]

So, if I'm reading the Dennybrew link right, does this mean that I don't have to worry about Ph levels if I'm batch sparging? That's one thing I'm a little worried about, the dude at the HBS couldn't help me very much in this regard. I use bottled spring water, I don't know how to check it's Ph or how to adjust (other than adding gypsum, not sure how much). Does this mean I can just fuggetaboutit?

So when you are fly sparging, how do you check your runoff?
keeping your ph down and your sg to about 1010 before stopping your runoff is key to fly sparging I'm told.
I batch sparge/single infuse and my last two efficiencys ( I haven't bothered doing efficiency testing before) were in the mid 80's (pre boil calculations).