Champagne bottle with no punt?

[Salmonlust]

Hello guys,

I sent my friend out to buy some champagne bottles because I was stuck at work. When I came home I realised that the bottles have no punt and are considerably lighter than my other 'reclaimed' champagne bottles. My plan was to bottle my cider in the champagne bottles with around 4.5 volumes of CO2.

I can't see any markings on the bottles or the box except for '750 ml'.

Any idea on how many volumes of CO2 it can take?

 

[RPh_Guy]

I don't think the punt really matters, but being light might be a problem.

There's no way for us to know whether it's safe. Check with the supplier or manufacturer.

Welcome to HBT!

 

[Chalkyt]

I looked into this a while ago and found that information is a bit rubbery. The best I could find is Jolicoeur Table 15.3 where he suggests beer bottles are good for 1.5-2.5 vols of CO2 (1.5-2.8 atmospheres at 25C), and for 3.5 vols (4+ atmospheres) upwards, use champagne bottles.

Another approach is to consider that your planned 4.5 atmospheres is about 70 PSI as I understand that an atmosphere is around 15 PSI.

I believe that here in Oz, beer bottles are tested to 150 PSI and typically bottled to around 50PSI, i.e. they have a safety factor of 2-3. This seems fine for cider purposes since most people seem to carbonate around 2-3 vols of CO2, otherwise you might get a volcano.

In your case, using a beer bottle should give a safety factor of 2, so it is probably a case of eyeballing your new bottles in relation to a beer bottle and a "proper" champagne bottle, and making a judgement call.

Sorry this doesn't give you a definative answer but at least you have an idea if what you are dealing with. BTW I tend to put my carbonated stuff in a "bomb container" (a trash can with a lid) for a month or so, just in case. SWMBO was reasonably unhappy when I lost several bottles of Rhubarb Champagne all over the ceiling as the corks blew out.

 

[RPh_Guy]

In your case, using a beer bottle should give a safety factor of 2...

Who said he had beer bottles?

Sounds like probably wine bottles to me. If that's the case, they're probably not safe since they're not designed to hold pressure like beer or champagne bottles.

SWMBO was reasonably unhappy when I lost several bottles of Rhubarb Champagne all over the ceiling as the corks blew out.

You didn't cage?

 

[Chalkyt]

Yep, did cage. But, it was in the early days before I knew better and the recipe said something like "uses natural yeast to make a pleasant low alcohol beverage". I thought "that doesn't sound like much fun" so I had better add some extra sugar and yeast. Boom!!!

Re the beer bottles, I just used that as a reference for physical comparison with the bottles that Salmonlust has.

 

[Salmonlust]

I don't think the punt really matters, but being light might be a problem.

There's no way for us to know whether it's safe. Check with the supplier or manufacturer.

Welcome to HBT!

Unfortunately the store they were bought at seem to know less than nothing about these bottles.
They are not super light novelty bottles. Thicker glass than your average beer bottle. Just not as heavy duty as a "proper" champagne bottle, punt and all.

I looked into this a while ago and found that information is a bit rubbery. The best I could find is Jolicoeur Table 15.3 where he suggests beer bottles are good for 1.5-2.5 vols of CO2 (1.5-2.8 atmospheres at 25C), and for 3.5 vols (4+ atmospheres) upwards, use champagne bottles.

Another approach is to consider that your planned 4.5 atmospheres is about 70 PSI as I understand that an atmosphere is around 15 PSI.

I believe that here in Oz, beer bottles are tested to 150 PSI and typically bottled to around 50PSI, i.e. they have a safety factor of 2-3. This seems fine for cider purposes since most people seem to carbonate around 2-3 vols of CO2, otherwise you might get a volcano.

In your case, using a beer bottle should give a safety factor of 2, so it is probably a case of eyeballing your new bottles in relation to a beer bottle and a "proper" champagne bottle, and making a judgement call.

Sorry this doesn't give you a definative answer but at least you have an idea if what you are dealing with. BTW I tend to put my carbonated stuff in a "bomb container" (a trash can with a lid) for a month or so, just in case. SWMBO was reasonably unhappy when I lost several bottles of Rhubarb Champagne all over the ceiling as the corks blew out.

Thanks for a very informing answer. I found that the bottles were a bit thicker and 'safer' than your typical beer bottle. I went for about 3.5 volumes or about 10gr/L of table sugar and packed it in a cardboard box and into the garage. Maybe I should put a trashbag around the box just to make sure it doesn't stink up my garage in case it blows.

 

[ten80]

These sound like Martinelli "cider" or Lindemans Lambic-type bottles, are they green glass and about 650 grams? If so, I've done up to 4 volumes without issue.

The punt IS SUPER IMPORTANT to the strength of champagne bottles as it prevents the bottom of the bottle from blowing out at >4 volumes. The punt distributes pressure to the edge of the base of the bottle where the glass is very strong, whereas a non-punted bottle with a flat base has a force of 70 PSI on about 9 square inches of flat surface.

Not to mention that pressures inside a bottle can spike by about two-fold if CO2 is produced at a rate greater than the dissolution of the CO2 into the liquid as carbonic acid.