Challenger keg ‘challenge’

[duskb]

Hi all. I have a keg that appears to have worn through the bottom to the rubber with two small sized holes.

Is this keg still safe to use assuming regular sanitation or because of the missing bottom is it shot?

It still appears to hold water and gas. Go figure.

I have a picture but don’t know how to post it here.

 

[Misplaced_Canuck]

The rubber has holes? Or the Stainless? If it's the rubber, no issues there. If it's the Stainless, you'd need to get the holes brazed shut.

 

[duskb]

It’s the bottom of the keg. Stainless has two small pinholes in it. It appears some rust got in and ate thru the bottom I didn’t know that was possible...

Is it even possible/economically feasible to repair the very bottom of the keg?

I thought Of using JB weld but I’m not sure long term if that’s ‘food grade’.

May also try covering up holes with keg lube and see how that works.

 

[Misplaced_Canuck]

If it's not accessible to be brazed or welded... I would retire that keg.

 

[VikeMan]

I thought Of using JB weld but I’m not sure long term if that’s ‘food grade’.

JB Weld is not food safe, long term or any term.

May also try covering up holes with keg lube and see how that works.

Keg lube is not a sealant. It lubricates O-rings so that they don't tear when when parts are installed/removed. Using it this way would be like trying to fix an oil pan leak with vaseline (though admittedly with less pressure).

 

[Broken Crow]

It’s the bottom of the keg. Stainless has two small pinholes in it. It appears some rust got in and ate thru the bottom I didn’t know that was possible...

Is it even possible/economically feasible to repair the very bottom of the keg?

I thought Of using JB weld but I’m not sure long term if that’s ‘food grade’.

May also try covering up holes with keg lube and see how that works.

Stainless can be compromised by chemistry or heat..once that has happened, you can no longer treat the keg itself as 'food-safe'. Theoretically, you could get it tig-welded, polished and passivated, but the cost of that would outwiegh just buying a new one. I can speak highly of the new rubber-handled corny's that @KegLand is making now...good price and reliable...I've got 2 in regular use so far and they made me decide to never buy another used one.

 

[duskb]

If it's not accessible to be brazed or welded... I would retire that keg.

Not what I wanted to hear but thankful for the straight truth. In my efforts to disinfect the keg I let it sit with bleach and a follow up long term treatment with star San. I think the aggressive treatment was ultimately responsible for the damage. Now I know what not to do in the future.

 

[Misplaced_Canuck]

Not what I wanted to hear but thankful for the straight truth. In my efforts to disinfect the keg I let it sit with bleach and a follow up long term treatment with star San. I think the aggressive treatment was ultimately responsible for the damage. Now I know what not to do in the future.

Bleach and Stainless don't play well together. Short term rinse is acceptable (at best) but not long term.

 

[lumpher]

I use Star San in my kegs, and bleach in my plastic buckets. If you use bleach on stainless it will corrode it, making it unsafe to use.

 

[duskb]

JB Weld is not food safe, long term or any term.



Keg lube is not a sealant. It lubricates O-rings so that they don't tear when when parts are installed/removed. Using it this way would be like trying to fix an oil pan leak with vaseline (though admittedly with less pressure).

On the subject of keg lube - the keg does appear to hold pressure and liquid. Your collective answers may not change but would this keg be useful for aging beers as opposed to holding them under pressure. My thought behind keg lube was I could use it to keep the beer from contacting the rubber and aging on it but still use the keg for long term storage before transfer to a working keg.

Not trying to press my luck perse but understand the realities of a damaged keg.

 

[SanPancho]

On the subject of keg lube - the keg does appear to hold pressure and liquid. Your collective answers may not change but would this keg be useful for aging beers as opposed to holding them under pressure. My thought behind keg lube was I could use it to keep the beer from contacting the rubber and aging on it but still use the keg for long term storage before transfer to a working keg.

Not trying to press my luck perse but understand the realities of a damaged keg.

if that was your goal, non-pressurized aging, i'd say go ahead. use some jb weld. it will be fine.

 

[VikeMan]

if that was your goal, non-pressurized aging, i'd say go ahead. use some jb weld. it will be fine.

As previously mentioned, JB Weld is not food safe. The manufacturer says "we do not recommend consuming the product or using it on areas that directly touch food or beverage."

 

[VikeMan]

On the subject of keg lube - the keg does appear to hold pressure and liquid. Your collective answers may not change but would this keg be useful for aging beers as opposed to holding them under pressure. My thought behind keg lube was I could use it to keep the beer from contacting the rubber and aging on it but still use the keg for long term storage before transfer to a working keg.

I wouldn't count on keg lube to provide an impermeable barrier between the beer and the rubber over time. Again, it's not really a sealant.

I would have two concerns about the rubber. First, what kind of rubber is it (I have no idea), and is that rubber safe? Second, how do you keep a probably only partially bonded metal to rubber interface sanitary?

 

[duskb]

As previously mentioned, JB Weld is not food safe. The manufacturer says "we do not recommend consuming the product or using it on areas that directly touch food or beverage."

I wouldn't count on keg lube to provide an impermeable barrier between the beer and the rubber over time. Again, it's not really a sealant.

I would have two concerns about the rubber. First, what kind of rubber is it (I have no idea), and is that rubber safe? Second, how do you keep a probably only partially bonded metal to rubber interface sanitary?

This is why I asked. I figured JB well would solve the problem for non food related issues but aging beer is a whole other story.

I’d think enough keg lube would at least keep the beer from sitting on unsanitary rubber but the consensus seems to think I couldn’t get enough in the holes at act as a barrier.

 

[IslandLizard]

I've not had much luck with JB Weld, it's adhesive properties are quite poor, even with proper cleaning and roughing up adhesive surfaces.

You can silver solder the pinholes. Since the surrounding metal gets really hot during that process, the rubber boot needs to be removed prior to that. Then re-glue it back on after testing has confirmed the keg to be leak free.

I'm surprised there's no beer oozing out those holes right now, certainly when put under pressure.

 

[duskb]

I've not had much luck with JB Weld, it's adhesive properties are quite poor, even with proper cleaning and roughing up adhesive surfaces.

You can silver solder the pinholes. Since the surrounding metal gets really hot during that process, the rubber boot needs to be removed prior to that. Then re-glue it back on after testing has confirmed the keg to be leak free.

I'm surprised there's no beer oozing out those holes right now, certainly when put under pressure.

This is a brilliant idea. Hadn’t thought of it. It should be easy enough to remove the base and inspect the damage from the underside. Haven’t tried that yet.

I’m quite skilled at soldering electronics but never used industrial grade tools. I’m assuming it’s easy enough to get some silver solder and heat the bottom of the keg up but are the fluxes used for soldering silver to stainless benign to a good grade keg?

 

[IslandLizard]

I’m quite skilled at soldering electronics but never used industrial grade tools. I’m assuming it’s easy enough to get some silver solder and heat the bottom of the keg up but are the fluxes used for soldering silver to stainless benign to a good grade keg?

Same here, only with electronics soldering.

Although I haven't done any of those myself (yet), many kettle modifications are silver soldered, such as ports for valves, probes, pump/whirlpool return, etc.
With the proper burner, gas, filler metal, and flux it should be fairly easy to fill those pinholes in stainless.

As always, proper cleaning/prep work is half the job of course.

I've read people referring to some Gorilla Glue to reattach loose rubber keg boots and handles. Not sure which type they use. Construction adhesive perhaps, or Polyurethane glue?

 

[SanPancho]

This is a brilliant idea. Hadn’t thought of it. It should be easy enough to remove the base and inspect the damage from the underside. Haven’t tried that yet.

I’m quite skilled at soldering electronics but never used industrial grade tools. I’m assuming it’s easy enough to get some silver solder and heat the bottom of the keg up but are the fluxes used for soldering silver to stainless benign to a good grade keg?

flux is acid, mostly removes rust and other oxide type stuff. clean it off when you're done. let the keg sit for a few days to passivate, or do a small acid soak if you really wanna be anal about it. if you can solder electronics you'll be fine to solder this. you dont need any other tools really, but a little plumbing propane torch will be faster that soldering iron. make sure you clean well if you see anything looking like rust, give it a good scratch with emery cloth to help adhesion.

as for jbweld, dont listen to self proclaimed internet authorities. its fine to use in food contact. "not recommended" is not the same as "unsafe" and to be able to say your product is food safe you need an NSF certification which costs money. now if they'd paid for NSF evaluation and were rejected, they would clearly state on their product that is cannot come in contact with food or food handling. which they dont. they say it is fine for toys. kids put toys in their mouths. also notes "ag equip" as well as "Plumbing" so think about that for a minute...
now, since i just told you not to trust self proclaimed internet authorities, i'll explain that this information comes from a guy i spent freshman year in a study group with at uc berkeley school of chem engineering. i hated it and bailed after 2 semesters, he ended up going on and getting a masters. he uses it in his kettles, fermenters, tools, faucet, etc. dude is not afraid of it, just has to be fully cured.

but taking the bottom rubber off is a way better idea in either case, solder that sucker and just use it without pressure for aging like you want. guy down the street used silicone adhesive to glue his rubber back to his keg and says he hasnt had any trouble. not sure what other options there are for that job but whatever you use make sure you clean/prep.

 

[IslandLizard]

as for jbweld [...]

I don't think JB Weld is gonna stick all that well, it's adhesive qualities are not very good, IME.

Although... I've patched a few cast iron radiators with it that had sprung a pinhole leak after a haphazard freeze-up. Those JB Weld patches had held up fine for well over 20 years without any issues, and probably much longer after that and may very well still be on there.
But that's on cast iron, not ultra smooth, mirror-like stainless steel.

 

[SanPancho]

I don't think JB Weld is gonna stick all that well, it's adhesive qualities are not very good, IME.

Although... I've patched a few cast iron radiators with it that had sprung a pinhole leak after a haphazard freeze-up. Those JB Weld patches had held up fine for well over 20 years without any issues, and probably much longer after that and may very well still be on there.
But that's on cast iron, not ultra smooth, mirror-like stainless steel.

i've done it a few times, on various pieces of gear. like you said before, its all about prep. clean it and scratch it up good. it holds for normal use, but if you're banging things around it might not. since OP is looking at something on the very bottom that wont take any direct hits, etc. i'd say it'd be fine. halfway up the keg? maybe not.

but in any case, your solder idea is a better solution hands down.

 

[duskb]

I've not had much luck with JB Weld, it's adhesive properties are quite poor, even with proper cleaning and roughing up adhesive surfaces.

You can silver solder the pinholes. Since the surrounding metal gets really hot during that process, the rubber boot needs to be removed prior to that. Then re-glue it back on after testing has confirmed the keg to be leak free.

I'm surprised there's no beer oozing out those holes right now, certainly when put under pressure.

Great idea. After tearing the boot off the keg bottom I discovered two pinhole leaks at the bottom. Not nearly as bad as I thought. Under pressure it does leak but I think braising/soldering some sort of metal at the nipple and sanding it down should reinforce the keg and make it serviceable again.

I haven’t done much metalwork before outside of soldering but I know how to use a torch. The heat should kill off any organisms and a good cleaning should remove any dirt, rust and debris. Any advice on how to use plumbing silver to close the gap up?

 

[IslandLizard]

Any advice on how to use plumbing silver to close the gap up?

I've never used silver solder, but there's a good chance the pinhole will close, perhaps even fill up, due to capillary action, if that's the right term. That's the idea behind soldering. Brewers (silver) solder spuds on their kettles all the time.

Hopefully someone who has experience with this can chime in.

Here's an array of solderable bulkheads/spuds/flanges etc. at @Bobby_M's store:
https://www.brewhardware.com/SearchResults.asp?Search=solder&Submit=
And an instruction video where he shows how prep and solder a spud into a kettle:

 

[SanPancho]

Any advice on how to use plumbing silver to close the gap up?

why dont you pull the rubber boot off and show us some pics of what you're working with?

 

[redrocker652002]

I have no idea what you should do, but if it were me, I'd let my wife use it as a planter and get another one. Used you can get them for 50 bucks off craigslist, sometimes even cheaper. There are countless web sites that sell reconditioned ones for cheap as well. No need to spend a whole day brewing a beer only to find it is ruined because either it leaked out, or you contaminated it with a non-food safe stop gap. But, that is me. Good luck with whatever you decide.

 

[VikeMan]

also notes "ag equip" as well as "Plumbing" so think about that for a minute...

I asked the manufacturer, who informed me that (direct quote) "The plumbing repair approved items are for drains, irrigation systems and other non-consumable water repairs." <emphasis added>

i'll explain that this information comes from a guy i spent freshman year in a study group with at uc berkeley school of chem engineering. i hated it and bailed after 2 semesters, he ended up going on and getting a masters. he uses it in his kettles, fermenters, tools, faucet, etc. dude is not afraid of it, just has to be fully cured.

Is your ChemE friend also a toxicologist or something related? If not, it seems a strange appeal to authority.

 

[duskb]

After examining the keg closely with the boot off I found a few areas that needed corrosion removed which at that point left me with 4 small holes in the keg bottom.

We tried using a tin/silver solder combo and after 20 minutes of trying we could not get the solder to bond. We could get the solder to melt on contact but it just rolled off. I’m not sure what we’re doing wrong but this approach appears to be a no go. At least without more knowledge.

The good news is the keg would be 100% repairable if I could flow food safe metal into the holes. Not impossible but beyond my magic at the moment.

I understand there are those out there that would advise me to abandon hope and purchase a new keg, and I would agree with them, but I’m determined to try to fix this if it’s possible to do so on my own. If the only solution is to hand it over to a professional welder and pay them $50+ for their time to repair it I would call it a loss but if it’s doable I don’t mind learning how to do a keg repair. The knowledge itself is useful and this exercise may inform future repairs.

 

[IslandLizard]

We tried using a tin/silver solder combo and after 20 minutes of trying we could not get the solder to bond. We could get the solder to melt on contact but it just rolled off. I’m not sure what we’re doing wrong but this approach appears to be a no go.

Did you use (ample) flux? That should make it flow and spread out.
The edges inside the pinholes also need to be clean.

 

[duskb]

Did you use (ample) flux? That should make it flow and spread out.
The edges inside the pinholes also need to be clean.

Yes a ton of flux inside and out and very high heat as well. It could be that the nature of the nipple makes the solder run off and that could be exacerbating the problem but it should at least stick.

Everything was cleaned and I sanded the whole working area with 220 grit inside and out to roughen the area.

 

[Broken Crow]

I found a few areas that needed corrosion removed which at that point left me with 4 small holes in the keg bottom.

A simple but annoying fact: You can neither solder nor braze oxidized metal. It sounds as if the whole bottom has been reactively compromised....I'm sorry, but you are wasting you time on it. You will not be able to 'remake' a non-reactive surface with it, and if by pure luck you get your holes plugged with solder, it will only be a matter of time before the next leak corrodes through while you ingest metals from the brews you put it in until that happens.....Give @redrocker652002 's alternative some thought and buy another keg, new or used... you can always salvage the lid, posts, poppets and diptubes.

 

[duskb]

A simple but annoying fact: You can neither solder nor braze oxidized metal. It sounds as if the whole bottom has been reactively compromised....I'm sorry, but you are wasting you time on it. You will not be able to 'remake' a non-reactive surface with it, and if by pure luck you get your holes plugged with solder, it will only be a matter of time before the next leak corrodes through while you ingest metals from the brews you put it in until that happens.....Give @redrocker652002 's alternative some thought and buy another keg, new or used... you can always salvage the lid, posts, poppets and diptubes.

Thanks for the clarification. These are the physical realities I needed to know about. If it’s impossible to repair then so be it.

 

[IslandLizard]

Thanks for the clarification. These are the physical realities I needed to know about. If it’s impossible to repair then so be it.

Before chucking the keg, perhaps put a grinder or a sharp file on that area where you want to solder and try it again. Nothing to lose, project keg.
I do wonder if there are specific solders and fluxes for these applications.
@Bobby_M may know.

If no go, dismantle it, all the parts are surely worth keeping.

 

[day_trippr]

There was someone on HBT looking for keg rubbers in the last few days...

Cheers!

 

[Broken Crow]

Before chucking the keg, perhaps put a grinder or a sharp file on that area where you want to solder and try it again. Nothing to lose, project keg.
I do wonder if there are specific solders and fluxes for these applications.
@Bobby_M may know.

If no go, dismantle it, all the parts are surely worth keeping.

If it were just one pinhole, I'd agree with that but 4 indicates a much wider degradation. The soldering itself will involve at least the heat of a butane torch multiple times... Stainless Steel ceases to be 'Stainless' under a sliding scale of heat/time, and to do that to metal that has already shown it's affliction with 'Steel-Cancer'....well, it just won't last long and as one who has issues with ingesting nickle and chromium in the molecular form that does the body no good.....well; I won't even use PC shanks or taps for the same reason.
The first thing I taught as a kid about working with steel, and then learned for myself both theoretically and empirically in the many years since: Oxidation is Steel-Cancer. To properly repair it, you must cut away and replace all the oxidized portion... Stainless brings with it another set of rules involving the manner in which it oxidizes. It's desirable mostly non-reactivity and non-corroding is the result of intentional oxidation on the surface through passivating.. The oxidation is kept to the outer surface. Once that surface has been comprimised though, a chain-reaction has begun below the surface that must be cut away to fix and with the size of the area involved, it'll require enough heat applied to begin an uncontrolled oxidation throughout unless it is properly polished and passivated.