Caustic Cleaner for Equipment

[Saboral]

My Brutus 10 system has developed some brown staining on the inside of my stainless components and silicone tubing. While the tubing is easy enough to replace, I have to figure there is come sort of cleaning substance that will remove this material. Perhaps a caustic cleaner? Are there any common brewery caustic cleaners that are available to homebrewers?

I also considered filling the HLT with 5 gallons of Beer Line Cleaner solution and running this through the system. Any thoughts?

 

[day_trippr]

Powdered Brewery Wash (aka PBW).
It's the thing for that...

Cheers!

 

[Saboral]

Powdered Brewery Wash (aka PBW).
It's the thing for that...

Cheers!

I had read that PBW and Oxyclean are essentially the same thing. I use hot oxyclean cycles for 20 minutes + on the brewery and it isn't taking it out. What kind of concentrations are you using?

 

[Yeastieboy]

SS Brewtech's literature recommends PBW while saying not to use Oxyclean or Bleach on their stainless equipment. Leads me to believe Oxyclean and PBW are not the same thing.

 

[IslandLizard]

PBW is around 70% Sodium Percarbonate (the main ingredient in Oxiclean) and 30% Sodium Metasilicate (TSP 90). It also contains a little Sodium EDTA and a stabilizer.

It's the Sodium Metasilicate that has a lot of cleaning power, beyond the Percarbonate, which after the O2 splits off, becomes Sodium Carbonate (washing soda). I use a lot of washing soda for routine cleaning and (homemade) PBW only where needed.

I've recirculated a strong boiling PBW solution for 4+ hours through my system and it cleaned off a lot of the brown deposits in my silicone hoses, and plate chiller. The hoses remained brownish, but what didn't come off after that cleaning cycle is likely to stay. I think it's simple discoloration.

Beer stone is also brown, and heavy deposits on stainless steel are easiest removed with Barkeeper's Friend, which will auto-passivate the stainless.

Instead of PBW you could run a hot 5-10% caustic soda (Sodium Hydroxide) solution through your system. It may clean things that PBW can't. Just watch out, that stuff is dangerous. It dissolves skin. Definitely wear good eye protection when using it.
Pro brewers also use various acids in their CIP systems.

 

[oujens]

SS Brewtech's literature recommends PBW while saying not to use Oxyclean or Bleach on their stainless equipment. Leads me to believe Oxyclean and PBW are not the same thing.

They say not to use oxyclean with hard water. From their FAQ:

"OxiClean or other peroxide cleaners in combination with hard water – This can cause calcium carbonate to precipitate onto the surface of the stainless. If this happens, a re-passivation (per above) should remove the deposits nicely."

 

[jsprinceiii]

Acid Cleaner 5 works great on beer stone.

 

[jsprinceiii]

SS Brewtech's literature recommends PBW while saying not to use Oxyclean or Bleach on their stainless equipment. Leads me to believe Oxyclean and PBW are not the same thing.

Never use Bleach!!

SSB recommends not using Oxiclean and Hard Water.. Otherwise Oxiclean is fine..

 

[Saboral]

Ok so I did a little research and I found out from MSDS sheets that Beer Line Cleaner is 30% Sodium Hydroxide with miscellaneous surfactants. I'm thinking I could get a big bottle of it, dilute to 30% in distilled water. Heat a bit and circulate through the system for a short time. Now my research then found that following with an acid wash/rinse is recommended. Problem is acid washes aren't exactly easy to purchase for homebrewers. Would a phosphoric acid solution by itself be sufficient?

 

[Yeastieboy]

Never use Bleach!!

SSB recommends not using Oxiclean and Hard Water.. Otherwise Oxiclean is fine..

Yeah fair enough. I see that now. I remembered reading something about no Oxiclean. It kinda surprised me.

 

[jackyl]

Ok so I did a little research and I found out from MSDS sheets that Beer Line Cleaner is 30% Sodium Hydroxide with miscellaneous surfactants. I'm thinking I could get a big bottle of it, dilute to 30% in distilled water. Heat a bit and circulate through the system for a short time. Now my research then found that following with an acid wash/rinse is recommended. Problem is acid washes aren't exactly easy to purchase for homebrewers. Would a phosphoric acid solution by itself be sufficient?

Dude, like someone said earlier, just use PBW. It works perfectly. Fill up your kettle however far your deposits go, heat the water up, put in the right amount of PBW, mix it up, and then walk away for a while.

Come back and drain your kettle, then wipe the stuff off.

 

[mattd2]

Ok so I did a little research and I found out from MSDS sheets that Beer Line Cleaner is 30% Sodium Hydroxide with miscellaneous surfactants. I'm thinking I could get a big bottle of it, dilute to 30% in distilled water. Heat a bit and circulate through the system for a short time. Now my research then found that following with an acid wash/rinse is recommended. Problem is acid washes aren't exactly easy to purchase for homebrewers. Would a phosphoric acid solution by itself be sufficient?

30% Caustic is way to much! typical CIP strenth for brewery/dairy is in the 2% range.
INteresting for those after a Nitric/Phos blend SikaGard Heavy Duty Concrete Cleaner & Etch is a possibility (do more research though) https://usa.sika.com/dms/getdocumen...s-cpd-Sikagard Heavy Duty Clean & Etch-us.pdf

If it is beer stone you are looking at I have seen some info suggesting a acid wash (I think it needed to be an oxidising acid like nitric) followed by a non-caustic cleaner (e.g. PBW) is more effective than caustic at removing it.
http://www.birkocorp.com/brewery/wh...stone-a-look-at-alternative-cleaning-methods/

 

[Saboral]

30% Caustic is way to much! typical CIP strenth for brewery/dairy is in the 2% range.
INteresting for those after a Nitric/Phos blend SikaGard Heavy Duty Concrete Cleaner & Etch is a possibility (do more research though) https://usa.sika.com/dms/getdocumen...s-cpd-Sikagard Heavy Duty Clean & Etch-us.pdf

If it is beer stone you are looking at I have seen some info suggesting a acid wash (I think it needed to be an oxidising acid like nitric) followed by a non-caustic cleaner (e.g. PBW) is more effective than caustic at removing it.
http://www.birkocorp.com/brewery/wh...stone-a-look-at-alternative-cleaning-methods/

Apologies, I didn't mean to write 30% that was a typo. I would use the BLC to make a sufficient caustic cleaner (as you noted maybe 2%). I will take a look at the SikaGard product.

For those that continue with the PBW recommendations. I agree that moving forward I will use PBW circulation to throughly cleanse my equipment, but at this time the build up is a bit beyond that. I want to get everything out of there. Caustic wash for the organics, proteins, bacteria, mold. Followed by an acid cleanser to destroy any beer stone, remove inorganic buildup, and passivating the stainless.

Then in the future PBW immediately after brewing.

Thank you everyone for the help. If anyone has any other suggestions regarding obtaining an appropriate acid cleaner, please let me know. I have thought about custom mixing some phosphoric and nitric acid for this purpose, but I need to figure out the appropriate ratios.

 

[TrickyDick]

Five star has a new product called BS remover. Kinda a funny name, but is for beer stone removal. Never used it though.

 

[jsprinceiii]

I have used 5-Star Acid Cleaner #5.
Works great. Removes beer stone.
Depending on your area, your LBHS should be able to get it for you.
http://www.fivestarchemicals.com/wp-content/uploads/Acid-5-Tech2.pdf

 

[mattd2]

I have used 5-Star Acid Cleaner #5.
Works great. Removes beer stone.
Depending on your area, your LBHS should be able to get it for you.
http://www.fivestarchemicals.com/wp-content/uploads/Acid-5-Tech2.pdf

This is probably the best option for a food grade nitric / phos acid blend
http://www.fivestarchemicals.com/wp-content/uploads/Acid5MSDS1.pdf

And as in the Birk reccomendations Acid#5 first to soften the oxelate/beer stone then straight away hit it with the PBW to clean it off.

 

[stonebrewer]

+1 on PBW. I also use a product called Barkeeper's Friend which is mostly oxalic acid. It does a great job of getting the stainless completely clean, like new.

 

[Sparge]

I use PBW for a normal cleaner but it didn't do very well on beer stone. I tried Barkeepers Friend on it and was amazed at how easy it came off. Now, I use PBW for general cleaning, but use Barkeeper's Friend when I see any beer stone.

 

[orangehero]

Be careful using Acid #5 with silicone. Works great on stainless, though.

 

[Jhenjum]

If you have any Farm and Fleet stores near you they will have dairy tank acid rinse available - cheap. I use it when I had Oxyclean calcium deposits. Worked great. Here is an example

 

[jsprinceiii]

Be careful using Acid #5 with silicone. Works great on stainless, though.

Agree!!

 

[olie]

There's another thread somewhere around here where the author breaks down all the chemical contents of each product, then has a spreadsheet showing how to make something that's pretty-much exactly PBW, but at 1/3 the price. I can't find the link, but I've been using it for dozens of batches and it's great. The gist is:

12 parts Oxyclean (unscented!)
6 parts TSP/90
5 parts 7th generation dishwasher powder.

(A "part" can be a scoop, an ounce, a pound or a bucket -- just so long as the ratios are the same and you mix it well.)

From memory:
* The oxy is a strong oxygen cleaner.
* The TSP is a "scrubber" and helps the little bits come off.
* The 7th gen has some of the other 2, but is largely added as a water softener, to prevent hard-water scale.

Overall, it's kind of amazing stuff.

NOTE: cleaning should be between 140°-180°F. Boiling causes some of the gunk to release proteins that can make cleaning more difficult. I typically shoot for mid-range: 160°-ish.

If I find the link to the one with the chemistry and spreadsheet, I'll update here.

 

[sicktght311]

I use Oxiclean free for all my general brewery cleaning purposes. However i use a strong solution of warm starsan every 4 or 5 brews in the brew kettle to remove the brown deposits and circulate it through my pump and lines. I let it circulate for about 20-30 minutes, scrub down the sides with a brush, rinse with clean water, drain, rinse again with clean water, circulate through the pump, and then dry everything off. The Oxiclean cuts through the heavy gunk, adn then the starsan cuts through the beer stone. Works great. My element comes out looking brand new as well

 

[IslandLizard]

However i use a strong solution of warm starsan

You could simply add some phosphoric acid to a regular Starsan solution to increase the acid content.

Not sure if citric acid would offer any additional benefits aside from passivating stainless.

Most commercial breweries use Peracetic Acid for sanitizing, yet, it also removes most leftover residues the alkaline (or caustic) wash didn't, all at the same time. I'm going to be using that too, as I happen to have a leftover 2.5 gallon jug of 90% Acetic acid. Hydrogen Peroxide is fairly easy to obtain.

 

[sicktght311]

You could simply add some phosphoric acid to a regular Starsan solution to increase the acid content.

Not sure if citric acid would offer any additional benefits aside from passivating stainless.

Most commercial breweries use Peracetic Acid for sanitizing, yet, it also removes most leftover residues the alkaline (or caustic) wash didn't, all at the same time. I'm going to be using that too, as I happen to have a leftover 2.5 gallon jug of 90% Acetic acid. Hydrogen Peroxide is fairly easy to obtain.

By "strong" starsan, i just meant a double dosage of what i'd typically use for sanitizing haha. Works for me so far and doesnt hit the bank that hard