Cascadian Dark Ale/Black IPA: Should it be a new style in BJCP?

[Beernik]

There are three issues with the California Common: 1) Anchor trademarked "Steam Beer" and won't let anyone else use it. 2) the beer style has 200 years of history. 3) a lot of people still call California Commons "Steam Beers" unless they are selling the beer or entering it into competion.

Altbiers have similar issues. How many people actually refer to it as Dusseldorf Alt? It has more history than Steam Beers.

CDAs have how much history on their own? Maybe a decade.

You're right "Cascadia" or even "Cascadian Dark Ale" means nothing to most people. Hence why it shouldn't be in the name of the style unless emphasizing the regionalization is the goal. Whereas a name that includes "India" and "Ale" ties it to the history of the PA and IPA, which is more than a decade long. And therefore is a name that will be more meaningful to more people.

 

[swankyswede]

Why not just American Black Ale? Not as much charm as Cascadian Dark Ale, but better than American-style IBA. Don't confuse it with that Italian-style India Black Ale or the Peruvian-Style India Black Ale.

I like this too. Even modern American IPAs bear little resemblance to English-style ones, so why keep tying beers with ever-more distant flavor profiles to the original IPA?

 

[artbrau]

I am in the "I don't get it" camp. The BYO article says it should be indistinguishable from an American IPA except for the color and suggests using flavorless coloring compounds to achieve it. Yes, color is an attribute but a flavor profile ought to be a distinguishing feature.

Bahh. Damn Cascadians! They're shiftless drunks. They smell of hops. They take brewing jobs away from Americans. We need a wall!

 

[remilard]

I don't quite get why people would be turned off to it... I guarantee 95% of people have no idea what/where Cascadia is. I hadn't heard of it until I first had a CDA. I don't think anyone has a problem with California Common or Dusseldorf Altbier.

1. California Common and Dusseldorf Altbier are historically significant styles.

2. California Common and Dusseldorf Altbier actually originated in the geographical areas referenced in the style name. We know that dark IPAs were made in Vermont, Texas and California long before the earliest examples cited for the NW. This would be like the Germans trying to call Pilsener "German Hoppy Beer".

 

[nutty_gnome]

The name is American Style India Black Ale."

I wont shoot the messenger, but I think that the proposed name is too long and hearkens back to an era and culture that is irrelevent to this style. "Today" (give or take 10 years) is when this style emerged. The 'India' in this name is archaic and unnecessary.

It should have been ABA - American Black Ale.

New proposal: the naming committee should be punished by constant exposure to impromptu vuvuzela orchestrations by the drunks at the World Cup.

 

[beerchemist]

I think the addition of "flavorless coloring compounds" is probably an anathema to homebrewers, but I can only speak for me.

 

[remilard]

In theory, an IPA that is flavorlessly colored black should score 1 pt lower on a BJCP score sheet than the same beer in pale form. That, in and of itself, would argue against promulgating a description of what the BYO article is describing. If you REQUIRE substantial specialty malt character then you have something that was new and interesting when it was invented in California and Texas almost 30 years ago.

 

[SPLASTiK]

I don't quite get why people would be turned off to it... I guarantee 95% of people have no idea what/where Cascadia is. I hadn't heard of it until I first had a CDA. I don't think anyone has a problem with California Common or Dusseldorf Altbier.

Besides what remilard mentioned above, they probably want to minimize the BA being associated with any politics like the Cascadia independence movement.

 

[SumnerH]

Besides what remilard mentioned above, they probably want to minimize the BA being associated with any politics like the Cascadia independence movement.

I think it's more likely that the fact that there's a hop named "Cascade" played into it--rightly or wrongly, people are liable to think that a "Cascadian" beer has Cascades in it, just as they'd think a "Saazian Lager" or "Fugglian Pale Ale" would tend to indicate that a particular hop is in that beer.

 

[olllllo]

I think people should stop quoting the BYO article.

The author uses the original proposal as the source for 3/4 of the article which details the style and then casually offers that the BA backed out all of the regional marketing propaganda in the last couple of grafs.

 

[mrgstiffler]

I think people should stop quoting the BYO article.

The author uses the original proposal as the source for 3/4 of the article which details the style and then casually offers that the BA backed out all of the regional marketing propaganda in the last couple of grafs.

Nothing wrong with that. The author seems to support (and rightfully so) the original name.

 

[SPLASTiK]

I think it's more likely that the fact that there's a hop named "Cascade" played into it--rightly or wrongly, people are liable to think that a "Cascadian" beer has Cascades in it, just as they'd think a "Saazian Lager" or "Fugglian Pale Ale" would tend to indicate that a particular hop is in that beer.

I don't know, I think I'd like to give more credit to drinkers and commercial brewers than to think that. I think their reasoning more politics (Seccesion Ale and invoking the douglas fir tree flag symbolism) and attempting to minimize the whole regional marketing with the name.

The new Zymurgy also has a CDA article. I found it interesting that The CDA Symposium, BA guidelines and the style parameters in the Zymurgy article are all different... also it's strange that the Barley Brown Turmoil recipes are different in BYO and Zymurgy. They call for the same IBUs but the OG is 6 points higher in Zymurgy.

 

[olllllo]

Nothing wrong with that. The author seems to support (and rightfully so) the original name.

That's crazy.
That would be akin to someone attributing the birth of Jazz to Kenny G and wring an entire article about his importance and popularity and how it all began in Seattle with the soprano sax.

And then saying in the last paragraph that the governing body decided to acknowledge New Orleans and Louis Armstrong so they dropped all the Kenny G prattle.

All the stuff that Cascade man wrote about in his article was deemed irrelevant to the style by the BA. It doesn't apply, so why devote 75% of an article to it when talking about style guidelines.

 

[BeerBrent]

hi all!
i'm entering my CDA into a competition. didn't the BJCP just add a new category just a couple of months ago or am i mistaken? anyways, what category should i enter this brew in??

 

[camiller]

hi all!
i'm entering my CDA into a competition. didn't the BJCP just add a new category just a couple of months ago or am i mistaken? anyways, what category should i enter this brew in??

It's not on the BJCP style guidelines so I'm guessing no. Probably should be entered as Category 23 - Specialty beer.

 

[jescholler]

The new Zymurgy also has a CDA article. I found it interesting that The CDA Symposium, BA guidelines and the style parameters in the Zymurgy article are all different... also it's strange that the Barley Brown Turmoil recipes are different in BYO and Zymurgy. They call for the same IBUs but the OG is 6 points higher in Zymurgy.

This is an old thread, but I stumbled upon it because I'm brewing a CDA this weekend. I also noticed that the OG didn't make sense in BYO based on the grain bill. I calculated the OG at 1.076 based on the grain bill and 65% efficiency, which is 6 points higher than they state. I think there's a typo in the OG of the recipe, and assuming Zymurgy has the same grain bill, Zymurgy is correct.

 

[cookinwood]

This is an old thread, but I stumbled upon it because I'm brewing a CDA this weekend. I also noticed that the OG didn't make sense in BYO based on the grain bill. I calculated the OG at 1.076 based on the grain bill and 65% efficiency, which is 6 points higher than they state. I think there's a typo in the OG of the recipe, and assuming Zymurgy has the same grain bill, Zymurgy is correct.

Why is your efficiency so low? Is this all grain or partial? I think 1.075 is the maximum. Lets talk about this.b

 

[beerchemist]

This is an old thread, but I stumbled upon it because I'm brewing a CDA this weekend. I also noticed that the OG didn't make sense in BYO based on the grain bill. I calculated the OG at 1.076 based on the grain bill and 65% efficiency, which is 6 points higher than they state. I think there's a typo in the OG of the recipe, and assuming Zymurgy has the same grain bill, Zymurgy is correct.

This thread is so old that the name of this style has changed--enjoy your American-Style Black Ale.

 

[cookinwood]

I'm still calling it a CDA because I live in Cascadia.

 

[jescholler]

Why is your efficiency so low? Is this all grain or partial? I think 1.075 is the maximum. Lets talk about this.b

I didn't actually brew the beer, but I was reading BYO to get a style description and some reference recipes. The Barley Brown one looked pretty good so I punched it into my brewing spreadsheet assuming 70% efficiency. I got a higher OG than the 1.070 than BYO called for. I basically left it at that and moved on with my recipe development.

Then I ran across this thread, which pointed out that the OG in Zymurgy was different than that in BYO. I did some research and found that BYO publishes their recipes with 65% efficiency. I punched 65% into my brewing spreadsheet and got 1.076. Surprisingly, that is exactly what the Zymurgy article states. Therefore, I think there's an error in the OG of the BYO recipe. They state 1.070 and the evidence leads me to believe that it should be 1.076.

 

[Mongrel]

I'm still calling it a CDA because I live in Cascadia.

QFMFT!

We should stop all hop shipments until this argument ends.*

*ok, so I actually prefer IBA, but had to show regional solidarity

 

[Spintab]

I dig American Black Ale as it leaves a lot of wiggle room. The recipe I've used is a combination Schwarzbier/IPA with WLP001. But, what I picture Cascadian Dark Ale to be is something more of a liberally hopped dark pale, though I don't think I've ever had a beer specifically labeled as that. Both IMO fall into the same category, but have the potential to be very different. Just saying Black IPA and assuming that to mean an IPA but with a dark color doesn't do justice for the style as a whole.

 

[Bierliebhaber]

This is an old thread, but I stumbled upon it because I'm brewing a CDA this weekend. I also noticed that the OG didn't make sense in BYO based on the grain bill. I calculated the OG at 1.076 based on the grain bill and 65% efficiency, which is 6 points higher than they state. I think there's a typo in the OG of the recipe, and assuming Zymurgy has the same grain bill, Zymurgy is correct.

Thanks for digging it up! It just made me mad! But I didn't realize the date on the thread until I got to the end. HOPEFULLY, people don't still think CDA is and IPA with black food dye!

 

[Mattang]

Wouldn't it be easier just to change the requirements for American IPA to allow for darker beers? Or are people brewing darker IPAs with the goal of more roasted flavors? I'm going to enter my dark IPA ina competition and it kills me that it has to go in the Specialty Beers category...

 

[Crustovsky]

it kills me that it has to go in the Specialty Beers category...

Uh, why?

 

[Beezy]

Uh, why?

Well from what I understand beers such as these tend to clog up the specialty category in competitions. There are so many commercial examples I think it should be a sub of IPA. The BJCP hasn't updated the guidelines in quite a while...

 

[mrgstiffler]

Wouldn't it be easier just to change the requirements for American IPA to allow for darker beers? Or are people brewing darker IPAs with the goal of more roasted flavors? I'm going to enter my dark IPA ina competition and it kills me that it has to go in the Specialty Beers category...

You have to have some roasted flavors for a CDA. Otherwise it's just an IPA with coloring.

 

[Jayman931]

Nothing special about them....just a IPA in my book....call it a new fad...it belongs in Specialty Beer.

 

[Beezy]

Nothing special about them....just a IPA in my book....call it a new fad...it belongs in Specialty Beer.

It's more of a porter in the malt bill and I think has a completely different vibe than IPA. It's not that new either. But if like you say it is just an IPA then should it not be in the IPA category???

 

[mrgstiffler]

Nothing special about them....just a IPA in my book....call it a new fad...it belongs in Specialty Beer.

They are very much NOT just IPAs. Which ones have you had?

My "off the top of my head" list of the CDAs I've had:

Widmer Pitch Black IPA
Laughing Dog Dogzilla
Deschutes Hop in the Dark
21st Amendment Back in Black
Hopworks Secession
Rogue Dad's Little Helper
Oakshire O'Dark:30
Barley Brown's Turmoil
Pyramid Discord
Fish Brewing Swordfish
Stone Sublimely Self-Righteous
Southern Tier Iniquity
Brewdog Bashah
Full Sail Bump in the Night