Carbonation Issue

[Thorsbrew]

Hey guys. Just recently got my keg setup going and having carbonation issues. Problem is that the beer in the lines goes completely flat. I have to dump the first 3 or 4 ounces or so down the drain every time i pour a brew. Quite a waste considering i only grab 1 beer at a time. After those first few ounces though the carbonation is fine.

It's in a large chest freezer with (currently) one keg hooked up. I havn't installed a collar or special faucets as of yet. Just got the keg/co2 tank in the freezer (set to 36F) with a picnic faucet. Used about 14-15 feet of 3/16 beer line so i'd have plenty for highly carbed beers (plus i like more carbonation). I've got the current beer set at 16 PSI.

The only thought i could come up with was maybe the beer line was a bit warmer as i had it wrapped around the top of the keg which is close to the lid. So i put the line down on the floor of the freezer but it still goes flat in the line.

Thanks for any insights i can get.

 

[cannman]

I'm mainly going to reply to subscribe, but one thing I did notice is that you had 16psi attached to a picnic faucet or cobra faucet. Its my understanding that these faucets have a 12~14 psi maximum before they leak... now I would think that if it was leaking then beer would constantly drip... but maybe it's just high enough for escaped gas to be an issue.

Yes, as the beer warms in the lines the co2 comes out of the beer. But if all of the lines are in the freezer I don't know what the issue is. Hence the subscribe!

 

[Thorsbrew]

Oh i did not realize they had a max PSI limit. No the beer certainly isnt leaking from the faucet.

How long and how many bleeds would it take to bleed off 3 PSI from the kegged beer? (because i wouldnt want to drop the regulator to 13 PSI but have 16 PSI in the keg and cause liquid to destroy my dual gauge regulator)

Thanks

PS: On second thought though the faucet isnt actually under 16 PSI of pressure as i understand it. With the length of 3/16 line i have i should have somewhere around 30-40 PSI drop. Meaning the PSI at the faucet end should be essentially 0, right?

 

[cannman]

Oh i did not realize they had a max PSI limit. No the beer certainly isnt leaking from the faucet.

How long and how many bleeds would it take to bleed off 3 PSI from the kegged beer? (because i wouldnt want to drop the regulator to 13 PSI but have 16 PSI in the keg and cause liquid to destroy my dual gauge regulator)

Thanks

PS: On second thought though the faucet isnt actually under 16 PSI of pressure as i understand it. With the length of 3/16 line i have i should have somewhere around 30-40 PSI drop. Meaning the PSI at the faucet end should be essentially 0, right?

If it were 0 psi I think it would need to be served by gravity... so I doubt its that. I'll dig up my line calculation chart somewhere and see what you're pushing. I've had a line too long that it got stuck half way so if you're pouring I doubt its 0. But maybe your beer line IS too long. How many feet at what temp?

The dip tube is at the very bottom of the keg and the gas is only about 2-3 inches in length well above the beer level even at keging (or should be). I don't think you'll get back up. I use a Blichmann Beer Gun to bottle and I regularly bleed out by kegs, dial in a low PSI, and have not had a back flow issue (I recently switched out my o2 lines from those red ones to clear so I could better target infections. I cut into the lines to check for any penetration of fluid and caught nothing).

 

[Thorsbrew]

How many feet at what temp?

Just got the keg/co2 tank in the freezer (set to 36F) with a picnic faucet. Used about 14-15 feet of 3/16 beer line so i'd have plenty for highly carbed beers (plus i like more carbonation). I've got the current beer set at 16 PSI.

According to this post 3/16 line has 3 PSI of drop per foot, at 14-15 feet that should give me 42-45 PSI drop (enough for any beer you could imagine). And according to this link 16 PSI at 36F gives me 3.05 volumes of carbonation.

Although this post says that my length of hose is just right for 16PSI. So i went with the longer estimate to be safe.

 

[cannman]

According to this post 3/16 line has 3 PSI of drop per foot, at 14-15 feet that should give me 42-45 PSI drop (enough for any beer you could imagine). And according to this link 16 PSI at 36F gives me 3.05 volumes of carbonation.

Although this post says that my length of hose is just right for 16PSI. So i went with the longer estimate to be safe.

Hmmm... I'm not a big fan of that last link... Seems like it would work for some situations but like yours... hmm..

So lets say that after 5 feet of hose in your set up you are near 1psi or less in your beer hose. That means there is 10 more feet of hose for the beer to sit at. When the beer sits at 0 psi, that's just like drinking beer from a bottle that been left open too long. without the proper pressure to contain it, the gas will come out. Do you notice air bubbles in your beer lines or get a gas push when opening the tap??

I'd say try and forget the last link calculator and go with 5' of hose and see if that doesn't fix your problem.

BTW 3.x volumes is a lot of carbonation for most styles. I love me some carbonation too, especially American light pilsners, club soda, I found 3s to be a bit metallic, maybe painful? But whatever you like! I'm working on a 2.5v for a friend who is visiting this week and even THAT has me worried I might over do it.

 

[Thorsbrew]

Hmm your idea does sort of make sense but even though there is no real pressure being applied at the end of the line there is still dissolved co2 in the beer. Not sure how that explains where that co2 is going. I doubt the co2 can be leeching through the line itself in just 1-2 days between pours.

As for your other 2 questions, can't say i've ever paid attention to the lines to see if there are bubbles in them, i'll do so next time. As for the gas push i'm assuming you mean a spurt of co2 when i open the faucet? No theres no gas spurting. There is just regular foam coming after i pour off the first flat 3-4 ounces.

 

[day_trippr]

The only line length calculator worth using is in fact Mike Solty's.
The rest are garbage...

Cheers!

 

[doug293cz]

The only line length calculator worth using is in fact Mike Solty's.
The rest are garbage...

Cheers!

@day_trippr is correct. Mike's is the only calculator that gets the physics, and line resistance correct. Forget the other calculators, and any advice that contradicts the Soltys calculator.

According to this post 3/16 line has 3 PSI of drop per foot, at 14-15 feet that should give me 42-45 PSI drop (enough for any beer you could imagine). And according to this link 16 PSI at 36F gives me 3.05 volumes of carbonation.

Although this post says that my length of hose is just right for 16PSI. So i went with the longer estimate to be safe.

3/16" line does not have 3 psi/ft of resistance. Someone published that incorrect number a long time ago, and just about everyone copied it. 3/16" line has a resistance closer to 1 psi/ft.

Oh i did not realize they had a max PSI limit. No the beer certainly isnt leaking from the faucet.

How long and how many bleeds would it take to bleed off 3 PSI from the kegged beer? (because i wouldnt want to drop the regulator to 13 PSI but have 16 PSI in the keg and cause liquid to destroy my dual gauge regulator)

Thanks

PS: On second thought though the faucet isnt actually under 16 PSI of pressure as i understand it. With the length of 3/16 line i have i should have somewhere around 30-40 PSI drop. Meaning the PSI at the faucet end should be essentially 0, right?

The pressure drop only occurs when you have flow in the line. No flow means no pressure drop. So, with the tap closed, the tap is at the same pressure as the keg.

Brew on

 

[cannman]

The pressure drop only occurs when you have flow in the line. No flow means no pressure drop. So, with the tap closed, the tap is at the same pressure as the keg.

Brew on

So why does OP have flat beer in his lines?

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Just a thought....is your faucet being stored lower than the top of the keg? I don't think this would be an issue, but maybe, just maybe, the CO2 moves up the line back into the keg after the faucet is shut off as the pressure increases in the line.

 

[Thorsbrew]

As posted i first had the roll of line (and faucet) sitting on top of the keg, then i moved it to the bottom of the freezer and either way i lost carbonation.

I'm currently decarbonating the keg to see if a lower PSI will help given i'm using a picnic tap. Shaking it and letting it sit an hour or so, releasing the gas and repeat. I'd love to know about how many times i should do this to drop it from 16 to 12 PSI(or slightly lower since i'll set regulator to 12). I was thinking 5-6 might work

 

[Gnomebrewer]

How many times you need to vent the keg depends on how much beer there is versus headspace. The more headspace there is, the fewer times you need to vent.

 

[Thorsbrew]

lol, so any rough idea what we're talking here? 5, 50, 500? Not looking for a calculation just need to get below 12 (or whatever volume that is at 36F) then bring it back up on the tank. The keg probably has 3-4 gallons left.

 

[cannman]

I did a little research and I think you are a prime canidate for the Perlick 650ss: It has a flow control on the faucet so you can over shoot your co2 PSI and dial back at the pour

on sale too!
https://www.morebeer.com/products/perlick-beer-faucet-650ss-flow-control.html?site_id=7

 

[Thorsbrew]

Hehe good to know for the future but i have other more important brew items to spend money on first

 

[kh54s10]

I wonder about those resistance figures. It will have an effect on the pour (resistance to the flow of the beer). But how can it have any effect on the beer in the line. The beer there is open to the same pressure as the keg is it not? So if there is 13 PSI in the keg there should be 13 PSI in the beer line......

 

[doug293cz]

I wonder about those resistance figures. It will have an effect on the pour (resistance to the flow of the beer). But how can it have any effect on the beer in the line. The beer there is open to the same pressure as the keg is it not? So if there is 13 PSI in the keg there should be 13 PSI in the beer line......

Correct, as I said earlier in this thread.

Brew on

 

[kh54s10]

Correct, as I said earlier in this thread.

Brew on

Ah, yes. I missed that in the last line.

Everyone else seems to think the line will have less pressure in it if it is longer.

 

[doug293cz]

Ah, yes. I missed that in the last line.

Everyone else seems to think the line will have less pressure in it if it is longer.

Not those who have studied physics or hydrodynamics.

Brew on

 

[doug293cz]

Only suggestion I have for the OP is to put a fan in the freezer to circulate air and minimize temperature gradients in the chamber. Foamy initial pours, with good subsequent pours, are usually due to the lines/taps being warmer than the keg. Although if temp stratification is the issue, I don't know why placing the line coils and tap at the bottom of the keezer didn't alleviate the problem.

Brew on

 

[Thorsbrew]

Freezer has a 10" box fan constantly running.

Seriously am i the only one ever to have this particular issue?

 

[Stillraining]

How long and how many bleeds would it take to bleed off 3 PSI from the kegged beer? (because i wouldnt want to drop the regulator to 13 PSI but have 16 PSI in the keg and cause liquid to destroy my dual gauge regulator)

Thanks

The only way that can happen is if the volume of beer in the keg is up into the "gas in" dip tube to begin with. But there is absolutely nothing wrong with bleeding all the pressure off and starting over at your new chosen pressure.

 

[Titleist3]

Seriously am i the only one ever to have this particular issue?

I'm experiencing the same issue. I have a chest freezer, temperature controlled at 38F with a recirculating fan. I have 10' lines (Ultra Barrier Silver) with picnic taps. The first oz or two comes out a bit flat and I usually dump (er, drink ) it before pulling the rest of the first beer. All other pours come out great after that first bit.

I generally drink on the weekend, so beer can sit in the lines for a several days and wasn't too surprised that the beer in the line was flat after sitting that long. But I think it's also noticeably less carbonated after one day as well.

I'd sure like to avoid it if possible. I wonder whether the picnic tap has anything to do with it.

 

[Thorsbrew]

So just an update. I lowered keg pressure from 16 to 11 then waited a week or so to see if that was the issue using my picnic tap. Well it didn't help, still lost carbonation from lines.

Well i had another thought. I recently found out you arent supposed to use teflon tape on swivel barbs because they have a flared connection to create the seal. Well since i was using teflon tape it might have inhibited the seal. I just spent 10 minutes in the 90 degree heat of my mostly "finished" attic trying to tear the teflon tape off and hopefully allow a better seal.

Hopefully this was the issue. Also i got most of the teflon tape off but as you know some of that stuff that gets inside the threads is practically impossible to peel out. Hopefully "most" was enough

 

[Thorsbrew]

So nope, that didnt help.

If there's carbonation after i pour a few ounces off the problem is definitely in the lines right?

 

[Thorsbrew]

Another update.

Kegged another beer in a completely new keg and it, too, is losing carbonation (again only in the lines). Not only new keg but new beer/co2 lines and picnic tap.

On this one i used zip ties instead of worm clamps so cutting into the lines is not the issue.

The only things left that i can think that could be the issue is either picnic faucets in general (which i dont get cause plenty use these without issue right?) or the beer line itself. I used this beer line from amazon, its only 3/16x5/16. Perhaps the more expensive 3/16x7/16 from homebrew sites would do better. Though it loses carbonation even when i pour a brew 1 or 2 days later.

This makes for a lot of loss everytime i pour a brew considering i usually pour just one beer at a time and am using 12-14' of line. Lot of loss for my 5 gallon batches but im going to start doing 2 gallon BIAB batches and if this keeps up i think ill just bottle those batches

Idk, its weird...

 

[GPP33]

I think it's pretty common for beer in the line to go stale/flat. Mine does as well. I only use 10 foot lines and I find that a couple ounces of less carbed beer mixed in with 16 to 20 ounces (depending on glass selection) doesn't make a difference. I'll get little gas bubbles in the high spots in my line that'll sputter out. Not sure how you could loose carbonation and not have gas bubbles, it needs to go somewhere.

One solution is to drink more often so it doesn't go as flat.

 

[Thorsbrew]

Hmm well mine is more like 3-4 maybe even 5 ounces before any carbonation shows up. Plus you're the first to mention getting similar problems.

Can anyone else say they get that problem?

I was thinking the next thing for me to try is grab a length of the more expensive line and last but not least move a Perlick 650SS flow control faucet and shank up to the top of my to buy list. If nothing else i can at the least cut off all but a few feet of beer line using the flow control and greatly reduce the carbonation loss.

 

[ryan810cows]

Only thing I can think of next is the really look over your Ball lock/Pin lock. I would make sure that it's holding and not leaking gas. I would also make sure it's not doing sorting strange like "checking" the beer in the line and not letting new co2 in the line when it's not flowing.... Really stretching on this one... Let us know how it goes!

 

[ericbw]

I have the same issue. Beer on the line goes flat. I assume there's a tiny vent somewhere letting gas out.

The "check" idea makes sense.

 

[Thorsbrew]

Well i needed some new ball locks for 2 other kegs anyway. I'll try that the next time i go to my LHBS. Though i doubt it as i've had identical issues on 2 kegs with 2 separate ball lock disconnects.

 

[ericbw]

I think if the ball lock were the problem, it would be causing a problem for the keg. It seems like the line is separated from the keg - so when it loses carb, it makes a big difference. But I also think this is just a small issue for me.

The soda keg, with 25 feet of line, is more bothersome.

 

[MagicMatt]

Hmm well mine is more like 3-4 maybe even 5 ounces before any carbonation shows up.

It's closer to 3 oz (actually less than 3 oz). It's a pretty simple cylindrical volume equation:

V = = πr²h

where
r = line radius = 1.5/16 in = 0.0942 in
h = line length = 15 ft = 180 in

So:
V = π · (0.0942 in)² · 180 in ≈ 5.018 in³

And since 1 in³ = 0.554 fl oz, then 5.018 in³ = 2.78 fl oz. of liquid in your 15ft, 3/16" lines.

FWIW, I too often experience flat beer in the line (my lines are about 8-10', so only 1-2oz), but I just pour it all into my glass and when full, you'd never notice. At least I can never tell the difference. I've even poured 2 pints side by side, the first being a "first pour" where the line is flat, and couldn't tell them apart by sight or taste.

 

[Thorsbrew]

Well i dont know what to tell you.....maybe the beer in the dip tube is going flat too? Either way it definitely seems like more than that to me. I'll measure next time.

 

[Thorsbrew]

Well alright, that's pretty close. Looked like a lot more to me. It took (measured it) about 3 ounces before i started to see very minor bubbles but it wasnt until 4 ounces that there was really any foam.

 

[jan_b19]

I feel like your beer line is way to long. i would go for 4,5-6 feet at 15 psi
I have a calculator for this, but it's in metric units and in dutch... I'll try to make a translated version when i have the time.
so with a temperature of 36°F (2.2°C) and 3 vol. CO2 you need 1,05 bar or 15.2 PSI.
Beer line: I don't have all the information available cause i would need to know the distance between the middle of the keg and the tap (height) for a accurate calculation.
I'm gonna do 2 calculations one with a distance of 1 foot and one with a distance of 2 feet.
both use 3/16 line with a resistance of 3psi/feet.

1 foot: beer line with a length of 4,3 feet
2 feet: beer line with a length of 4,1 feet
You need shorter line to get the beer to the tap if you don't want to increase the pressure.

God i hate converting units.
I really don't understand why you drink your beer so cold tho. 48°F is the ideal beer temperature. But hey if you like it who am i to tell you otherwise

And as a answer to the previous post. He's right the pressure doesn't drop in the line. But that doesn't mean the beer won't go flat. In the keg the beer stays carbonated in the line the beer goes flat because the CO2 escapes from the beer because the beer is heating up once it leaves the keg. With a length of 14 feet that means he has a lot of flat beer in his lines.

 

[day_trippr]

I feel like your beer line is way to long. i would go for 4,5-6 feet at 15 psi[...]
both use 3/16 line with a resistance of 3psi/feet.
[...]

That's a classic recipe for horrible pours.
The only beer line length calculator worth using will tell you why.
http://www.mikesoltys.com/2012/09/17/determining-proper-hose-length-for-your-kegerator/

Cheers!

 

[MagicMatt]

I feel like your beer line is way to long. i would go for 4,5-6 feet at 15 psi

I second day_trippr's comment. Do not listen to this guy. 4 feet at 15 psi will give you nothing but foam, and lots of it.

 

[Thorsbrew]

I feel like your beer line is way to long. i would go for 4,5-6 feet at 15 psi
I have a calculator for this, but it's in metric units and in dutch... I'll try to make a translated version when i have the time.
so with a temperature of 36°F (2.2°C) and 3 vol. CO2 you need 1,05 bar or 15.2 PSI.
Beer line: I don't have all the information available cause i would need to know the distance between the middle of the keg and the tap (height) for a accurate calculation.
I'm gonna do 2 calculations one with a distance of 1 foot and one with a distance of 2 feet.
both use 3/16 line with a resistance of 3psi/feet.

1 foot: beer line with a length of 4,3 feet
2 feet: beer line with a length of 4,1 feet
You need shorter line to get the beer to the tap if you don't want to increase the pressure.

God i hate converting units.
I really don't understand why you drink your beer so cold tho. 48°F is the ideal beer temperature. But hey if you like it who am i to tell you otherwise

And as a answer to the previous post. He's right the pressure doesn't drop in the line. But that doesn't mean the beer won't go flat. In the keg the beer stays carbonated in the line the beer goes flat because the CO2 escapes from the beer because the beer is heating up once it leaves the keg. With a length of 14 feet that means he has a lot of flat beer in his lines.

Yes but, how/where does the carbonation escape? Also the beer cant be heating up because the lines are entirely in the keezer.

As for the length i was thinking about reducing the length despite using this length based on what that site (that others also recommended) told me. I have a neighbor that brews beer as well and he said he uses short line lengths like that and doesnt have an issue (or at least noticeably i assume, as youd have much less lost carbonation in that length).

As for temperature i didnt give it much thought. It was partially so i didnt have to use as much PSI and use an even longer length of line and partially because that just seemed right. I could try a little warmer but i dont want to go up and down on temps for the whole kegs too much. 48 sounds really warm though.