carapils VS flaked barley

[Jaybird]

So I just (ya like 4 hours ago) off the phone w/ a grain supplier and 3 pro brewers. We were talking about carapills and all 3 of the "PRO" brewers wanted to know why I would want to use the EXPENCIVE carapills instead of the CHEEP flaked barley? Both add body and head retention. So what gives? I never gave it much thought.
Input? suggestions? Help? I find it hard to argue w/ the pros. But their not ALWAYS right...Are they?

 

[Brewsmith]

I never use Carapils anymore and only use Flaked barley when I want a big creamy head, like in a stout or hefeweizen. The two are different. Carapils leaves body without much flavor and has unfermentables, while the flaked barley has more proteins.

I'm assuming this is for your commercial endeavor. If you have control over your mash temperature, then I don't really see the need for carapils. If your hot liquor tank is going to keep the mash temp pretty much set (like I know some commercial brewers do, say around 150) then Carapils may be the answer. The brewers do have a point in flaked barley being much cheaper.

 

[Jaybird]

Well not only being cheaper but I think they have a good argument in saying they accomplish the same task. Yes I too think the proteins may be a contributing factor, how much is the question? I do, and have always thought I could accomplish at least body in my beers w/ mash temp. Head retention is another story.
I am going to have to do some side by side action on this one. I am thinking 2 brews 1 w/ carapills and one w/ flaked barley, brewed back to back on the same day. Simple beer maybe a Blonde or something like that.
Yes I am thinking of commercial application (always) flaked barley is like .60 per# and carapills is like .75 per# (bulk buys obviously)
Cheers
JJ

 

[Jaybird]

Man I thought you guys would have been all over this!



Fail!

 

[Blender]

You think the flaked barley would leave more of a haze? I might give it a try on the next few batches.

 

[Brewsmith]

Man I thought you guys would have been all over this!

Carapils roxx man! I use like 2 pounds in every brew. My friends tell me it's great stuff.

 

[Brewsmith]

Carapils roxx man! I use like 2 pounds in every brew. My friends tell me it's great stuff.

Naw, you don't know what you're talking about. Carpils is for hack brewers that couldn't control mash temps if their life depended on it. Beers with carapils blow chunks.

 

[Brewsmith]

Those "pro" brewers don't know what they're talking about. Those wussies are too worried about the bottom line. You need to make beer that stays true to the craft, not the pocket book.

 

[Brewsmith]

Jay, how's that? Will that stir up a little controversy?

 

[Schlenkerla]

If the protein thing is an issue with flaked barley then it might be better suited for darker beers.

I'm gonna say the carapils might be better if you are making something like a pilsner. The clarity is good a other flavors are minimal. I believe carapils adds some sweetness. I think you need to use quite a bit to notice this though.

Another thought. Pound for pound which is more effective for head rention? It might be a $$$ thing.

You might ask Briess...

Briess Carapils. 1.5° L. Carapils is a dextrin malt. Its main function is to add foam stability, body, and palate fullness to otherwise thin worts. Dextrin malt also significantly enhances head retention. Although it appears darker than pale malt, it has a clear, glassy endosperm and does not contribute significantly to beer color or flavor. Must be mashed with other diastatic grains.

Grain Adjuncts

Grain adjuncts require mashing. Flaked adjuncts are pre-gelatinized, require no pre-cooking, and can be added directly to the mash. Torrefied grains are also pre-gelatinized and serve much the same function as flakes. They need to be crushed before adding to the mash.


Flaked Barley. Lends a rich grainy taste and increased head retention, creaminess, and body. Can make up to 40% of grist.

Briess Links

Carapils - Briess Malt & Ingredients Co.: Carapils® Malt

Flaked Barley & Adjuncts - Briess Malt & Ingredients Co.: Adjuncts

 

[Bob]

By all means use the flaked barley. A bit of wheat malt will have an excellent impact on foam retention also. Haze only becomes a problem when used in excess of, say, 5% of the total grist. Besides, if you're filtering - which I presume will happen in a commercial setting - haze will be easily surmounted.

Many UK brewers use a proportion of flaked grains or wheat malt in light beers like Ordinary Bitter for just that purpose. And if they can use it in unfiltered real ales, there is no reason you can't use it in your light-beer grists to the same effect.

Cheers,

Bob

 

[brewt00l]

Input? suggestions? Help? I find it hard to argue w/ the pros. But their not ALWAYS right...Are they?

Was the essence of their point price alone or did they have other considerations?

What's your goal with the carapils, are you trying to troubleshoot issues?

 

[Danek]

I am going to have to do some side by side action on this one. I am thinking 2 brews 1 w/ carapills and one w/ flaked barley, brewed back to back on the same day. Simple beer maybe a Blonde or something like that.

That's a fantastic idea - I'd love to hear how they turn out.

 

[Jaybird]

Jay, how's that? Will that stir up a little controversy?

Ya now were talking!!! I just knew you could do it
Man I was laughing my a$$ off. Not what I had in mind, but it will suffice.
Thanks Brewsmith
JJ

 

[Jaybird]

By all means use the flaked barley. A bit of wheat malt will have an excellent impact on foam retention also. Haze only becomes a problem when used in excess of, say, 5% of the total grist. Besides, if you're filtering - which I presume will happen in a commercial setting - haze will be easily surmounted.

Many UK brewers use a proportion of flaked grains or wheat malt in light beers like Ordinary Bitter for just that purpose. And if they can use it in unfiltered real ales, there is no reason you can't use it in your light-beer grists to the same effect.

Cheers,

Bob

This was exactly what they were talking about too.

Was the essence of their point price alone or did they have other considerations?

What's your goal with the carapils, are you trying to troubleshoot issues?

Price was one of the big issues. .25 a # is not a huge issue at the 10 gallon batch size but for them 600+ gallon mark it's a different story. I personally never gave it much thought I was just wondering if any of you had. That’s all, nope no issues.

 

[brewt00l]

Price was one of the big issues. .25 a # is not a huge issue at the 10 gallon batch size but for them 600+ gallon mark it's a different story. I personally never gave it much thought I was just wondering if any of you had. That’s all, nope no issues.

This about says it:
Carapils - ProBrewer Interactive

 

[Jaybird]

This about says it:
Carapils - ProBrewer Interactive

I just love the input from Cargill Malt, those guys have been malting for a loooooong time. Great read! Thanks. I spend a little time on that forum too. I like to see the views of the pros in the industry. I didn't read any mention of flaked barley though. Hmmmm
Cheers
JJ

 

[Bob]

Mainly because Larry said it best and truthfully over at ProBrewer - if you start with a wort much higher than 10P (1.040 OG), if you suffer from foam problems, 99% of the time it's due to either serving-process issues or brewing-process issues.

Most of the time, with modern, fully-modified malts, foam problems can be overcome by increasing mash temperature. Over time, if you brew the same recipe over and over, you can tweak the one variable to where you think it solves (or doesn't solve) the problem. Of course, you don't want to overdo it; it won't do taking your Blonde Ale mouthfeel into Oatmeal Stout territory in order to correct a foam problem.

Deleting the protein rest if you're brewing with anything other than true Czech or German Pils malt will immediately improve the issue.

When I wrote about the UK brewers earlier, I should remind you that most UK Bitters have a significant proportion of sugars in the grist. Adding protein-rich grains such as flaked barley and wheat - malted or unmalted - increases the proportion of essential proteins and amino acids available in the wort for yeast metabolism and enhancement of vollmundigkeit. An all-malt wort shouldn't need such additions.

Cheers,

Bob

 

[Jaybird]

OK so I did a side by side. I brewed a pale ale. 1 w/ 1.5# of flaked barley and the other w/ the same Carapills. Flaked barley @ $.45 or carapills @ $.85. I am pleased to say that the flaked barley is the winner in this one. Better head retention. Better body and over all a better beer. Was it that noticeable? Yep it was. The Carapills looked darker in color. The flaked barley was just as clear, but the head... WOW what a difference!

So there it is "IMHO"
JJ

 

[dstar26t]

Wow, thanks for following up on this one. Good info.

 

[Saccharomyces]

Sweet! Great to know.

I've standardized on 5% flaked wheat. Same effect, also cheap, since I buy in bulk and I already use a lot of flaked wheat for Wits.

 

[dstar26t]

I'm trying out some torrified wheat in an IPA this weekend for that effect.

 

[Denny]

Proper brewing practices can make it unnecessary to use high protein ingredients to enhance foam. Ever had a Duvel? Pretty much the best foam out there and nothing but pils malt and sugar. See Brew Your Own: The How-To Homebrew Beer Magazine - Story Index - Head Retention - Getting Good Beer Foam: Techniques .

 

[Jaybird]

Proper brewing practices can make it unnecessary to use high protein ingredients to enhance foam. Ever had a Duvel? Pretty much the best foam out there and nothing but pils malt and sugar. See Brew Your Own: The How-To Homebrew Beer Magazine - Story Index - Head Retention - Getting Good Beer Foam: Techniques .

Good read Denny thanks for sharing. Are you saying you don't use any at all? How is that working out for you? Just wondering.
JJ

 

[slimer]

Sweet! Great to know.

I've standardized on 5% flaked wheat. Same effect, also cheap, since I buy in bulk and I already use a lot of flaked wheat for Wits.

I've switched to regular red wheat malt over carapils. I like the lacing that it provides.

 

[dstar26t]

Your avatar just messed me up more than the Racer X I've been drinking.

 

[Denny]

Good read Denny thanks for sharing. Are you saying you don't use any at all? How is that working out for you? Just wondering.
JJ

I use carapils when I want to adjust the body of the beer, not for head retention. AAMOF, that's true of all the stuff that people might use to increase foam. I use them for flavor and body purposes, not for foam.

 

[smellysell]

How does the shelf life of the two compare?

 

[fastricky]

Great thread!

 

[BrewBrain]

I used to use cara-pils all the time for body/head retention when the recipe needed it. A few brews ago, I tried flaked barley just to compare and I'll never go back. I'm getting thicker, richer, creamier head that lasts longer and way better lacing down the glass. I only use 1/4 lb for 5 gallons. No haze issues at all in my pale ales.

I haven't tried mashing a bit higher, but that'll be my next project after I use up all my flakes and cara-pils.