Caramelizing first runnings vs. malt extract

[Spauld]

In researching the possibility of upping the caramel nuances of some of my ales, I've read LOTS of threads about the process of caramelizing a bit of the initial runnings from
the mash tun. It sounds like there is a bit of time required to boil down a gallon or two of run-off to get a rich, caramel-flavored syrup to add back to the kettle later. I'm guessing this will add some time (not to mention multi-tasking!) to the brew day. Here is a question for you all (since I've not found anything regarding this on the internet), why not just buy a can of malt extract syrup and boil that down? Heck, you could even do it in advance of brew day, which would go a long way to keeping things less complicated on brew day. It seems to me you'd even have a huge head start since most of the water is gone and the malt extract syrup is pretty much condensed. I'd love to hear if anyone has tried this and if it works!

 

[JimRausch]

Interesting. I have thought the same although I have never done it. I'm basically babbling on so I can subscribe to the thread. Hopefully someone(s) who has done it will pipe in.
P.s. I have done a separate boil for 1 G of 1st runnings for Scottish ales, Barley wines, and Dopplebocks. I just boil it on a campstove on the side while doing the main boil, then add it late. It doesn't add any additional time to my boil. It does seem kind of like adding LME though...........

 

[Spauld]

Thanks for the reply Jim. I guess everything I've read suggests you need to boil the heck out of the first runnings, to a point where you've reduced something like a gallon down to a pint of thick syrup. Folks suggest it takes about 90 to 120 minutes to do this! (all while stirring almost constantly to avoid scorching and watching for the dreaded boil-over). The timing seems like it would present a challenge, not to mention I'm already multi-tasking so much on brew day (I'm a one-man show!) that I'd surely need to shut down the flame on the reduction a few times to avoid any of those issues (making it take even longer). Hence my interest in finding out if LME syrup could be used instead.

 

[JimRausch]

Yes. my 1G, 1 hour boil probably only reduces it by 1/2. It is darker, but not carmelized. I've read posts that say it takes a temp. of around 250*f to get carmelization, and that's not achieved until it's quite thick. So I am interested in your thought about starting with LME. I'm doing a Vienna lager this weekend, and happen to have some munich LME on hand, so I might try boiling a qt. of it and see what happens. I'll keep you informed.

 

[Spauld]

Awesome, thanks Jim. If I don't hear back from anyone on this thread before Saturday....I will venture into this on Saturday myself, using a couple of gallons of first runnings for my 10G batch of Nut Brown Ale. If things get dicey, I can always bail early and just add it back to the kettle whenever it works best with my brew schedule..... and live to fight another day!

 

[BitterSweetBrews]

Interesting idea. Let us know how (if) it works.

 

[Spauld]

OK, I "caramelized" my first runnings (or at least I boiled it down to a thick syrup) for a Nut Brown Ale last weekend. I've tried to attach a summary of the event in hopes this helps answer questions others may have. That said, we won't know if this process helped my Nut Brown Ale until I can taste it!

 

[Unicorn_Platypus]

I add LME to boost gravity on Barley wines and do a 2.5 hour boil with everything.

I also add a very small amount of medium crystal and some munich type malts

My last barleywine took 2nd place in a NYC competition. Here's the recipe:


Bad Influence - Brahley Wine

All Grain Recipe
Submitted By: brahery

Brewer: Brahery
Batch Size: 12.00 gal Style: American Barleywine (19C)
Boil Size: 17.25 gal Style Guide: BJCP 2008
Color: 17.1 SRM Equipment: Brahery 2.5 hour boil
Bitterness: 127.1 IBUs Boil Time: 2.5 hour
Est OG: 1.100 Mash Profile: Brahery Mash (batch sparge)
Est FG: 1.019 Fermentation: Ale
ABV: 10.6%


Ingredients
Amount Name Type #
0.50 tsp Calcium Chloride (Mash 60 min) Misc 1
0.50 tsp Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Mash 60 min) Misc 2

1 lbs Rice Hulls (0.0 SRM) Adjunct 3
30 lbs Golden Promise (3.0 SRM) Grain 4
2 lbs Munich Malt - 10L (10.0 SRM) Grain 5
2 lbs Vienna Malt (3.5 SRM) Grain 6
1 lbs Oats, Flaked (1.0 SRM) Grain 7
1 lbs Wheat, Flaked (1.6 SRM) Grain 8
12.00 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 9
8.00 oz Acid Malt (3.0 SRM) Grain 10
8.00 oz Black Printz (add at mash out) (500.0 SRM) Grain 11

9 lbs Light Dry Extract (8.0 SRM) Dry Extract 16

1.50 oz Apollo [17.0%] - First Wort Hops 12
1.50 oz Chinook [13.0%] - First Wort Hops 13
1.50 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [14.0%] - First Wort Hops 14
1.50 oz Simcoe [13.0%] - First Wort Hops 15

0.50 tsp Calcium Chloride (Boil) Misc 17
0.50 tsp Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Boil) Misc 18

2.00 tsp Irish Moss (Boil 10 min) Misc 19
1.00 oz Apollo [17.0%] - Boil 10 min Hops 20
1.00 oz Chinook [13.0%] - Boil 10 min Hops 21
1.00 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [14.0%] - Boil 10 min Hops 22
1.00 oz Simcoe [13.0%] - Boil 10 min Hops 23
1.00 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Boil 10 min) Misc 24

2.00 oz Apollo [17.0%] - Boil 0 min Hops 25
2.00 oz Chinook [13.0%] - Boil 0 min Hops 26
2.00 oz Columbus/Tomahawk/Zeus (CTZ) [15.5%] - Boil 0 min Hops 27
2.00 oz Simcoe [13.0%] - Boil 0 min Hops 28

5 pkgs Nottingham (Danstar #-) Yeast 29

1.00 oz Apollo [17.0%] - Dry Hop 3 days Hops 30
1.00 oz Chinook [13.0%] - Dry Hop 3 days Hops 31
1.00 oz Columbus/Tomahawk/Zeus (CTZ) [15.5%] - Dry Hop 3 days Hops 32
1.00 oz Simcoe [13.0%] - Dry Hop 3 days Hops 33


Notes
Ferment at 60 degrees. Raise to 70 after initial ferment Dry hop after two weeks

 

[JimRausch]

I might try boiling a qt. of it and see what happens. I'll keep you informed.

Shoot, I forgot about this thread. Sorry. But I don't have any data to add anyways. I brewed my Vienna last weekend, but was dead-on with my mash efficiency and predicted OG so I didn't need to add any LME. I do have a Marzen and a Bock planned before the end of the year, so there's still hope- especially with the bock. I'll keep in touch.

 

[JimRausch]

I've tried to attach a summary of the event

Very Nicely done Spauld! You could have a career as a writer! You boiled down the 1st runnings a lot further than I have in the past. I'm interested in how this turns out. I predict great flavors.

 

[JimRausch]

I brewed my marzen on Saturday and was a little low on projected OG, so I added 12 oz. munich LME. I decided to boil it to see what happens.
I used a campstove on the side. Heated it 1st in the microwave so it would pour easily. It started boiling at 220. Expanded about 3 x in size. I heated it until it was 235 based on a thread I've been following in the mead section: "www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/bochet-a-question-of-temperature-not-time.658246/" It only took about 15 minutes to get there. Added it back to the main boil. It did not scorch the bottom of the pot, but I was stirring constantly. The remains in the pot were quite carmelly flavored. We'll see what it does to the marzen.