Cant crack 55% efficiency

[theCougfan97]

I need help! I consistently get 55% efficiency out of my all-grain batches.

I am using a 10 gallon Gatorade cooler for a mash tun. Here is my current process:

0. Using a 1.20 qt/lb (water/grain)
1. Add 175 degree water to get mash to 152 degrees
2. Stir really well
3. Check temp - close to 150-152
4. Wait 30 min.
5. Stir
6. wait 30 min
7. stir
8. Recirculate wort (bottom to top) using a pump for 15 min.
9. Drain
10. Add 190 degree water to reach a sparge temp over 170
11. Stir
12. Rest 30 min
13. recirculate for 15 min
14. Drain

I have read about mashing out, protein rests, extended mash times, but they all claim to only provide minimal efficiency improvements. There has to be something obvious I am missing that accounts for such a large shortfall.

Any thoughts???

Thanks in advance!:rockin:


UPDATE:
I met a new friend today. He is a fellow brewer that lives in my neighborhood and frequents similar stores. He mills his own grain.
He didnt like LHBS B's employees so he always got his grain from LHBS C. He was having efficiency problems, so he went to LHBS B for grains despite the bad employees. What do you know his efficiency improved. After several more successful brews he tested his new theory by buying grains from LHBS C, for old time sake. Suprise suprise his efficiency went back down.

I buy all my grains from the LHBS C, because their employees are so friendly...
I wont know until I brew again next week but I think we may have found the culprit.

 

[fijigus]

We haven't done much efficiency measuring, so not sure I can help a lot, but I couldn't not comment based on your coug name and wazzu comment. I'm a 99 grad and also started drinking in college. Would be crazy if we knew each other. send me a pm.

as for efficiency, we never stir our mash tun, other than maybe as we are adding the water. Anyone know if that is part of it?

 

[bruteforce]

Where are you getting your grain crushed? Not an expert by any means, but thats the first thing that comes to mind

 

[jekeane]

Grain crush and mash ph would be my first two thoughts on what to look in to.

 

[peterj]

I would look at your crush. Do you mill your own grains? If so tighten your gap. If not have the LHBS run them through twice or look into investing in a mill. Crush is probably one of the biggest factors in efficiency.

Also, it seems like you're doing a lot of unnecessary steps in your process. I would cut out:

8. Recirculating for 15 minutes doesn't seem necessary. I usually just vourlaf a couple pints and then drain.

12. There's no need to rest a sparge. All your doing is rinsing the extra sugar off the grain, and you don't need to worry about the grain bed when you batch sparge. Just make sure you mix all the grain up really well with the sparge water, then vourlaf and drain.

13. Same as number 8.

 

[FuzzeWuzze]

8. Recirculating for 15 minutes doesn't seem necessary. I usually just vourlaf a couple pints and then drain.

As someone who has started recirculating using a pump after my mash ill tell you the difference between manually vorlaufing and recirculating makes a HUGE difference in the clarity of the wort going into my beer.

It really makes no difference with efficiency and 15 minutes is a bit excessive, maybe 5 and the grain bed is set solid and the wort coming out is crystal clear.

 

[RonPopeil]

i mash most beers at 1.25 or 1.33 qt/# (whatever gets me to an even number in gallons). i stir to combine and make sure there's no clumps. once it's looking smooth and my temp is still good i put the lid on the igloo and rest it. i won't check it again until it's time to sparge or step up the mash temp. i also vorlauf by pulling about a quart and adding it back on top.

to sparge i first drain my first run. pour in my hot sparge water and stir again. don't have to be so thorough since the grains are already soaked. let that settle out and drain it again. if i'm short i add more hot water to the mash tun and sparge again basically. usually less than a gallon though.

as an experiment try buying some distilled water. a 6 gallon case costs me $5. brew a batch with that (topping up with tap will be fine) and add about .5# of acid malt to your grist. see if that has a dramatic change on your efficiency.

I use this method with an igloo from LHBS which drains in the center (no fancy manifold) with a batch sparge and i can get 74% efficiency on a 17# grist. no pumps, no wizardry. i don't even use acid malt. just distilled and basic addition of gypsum and cacl.

 

[Rockn_M]

Like jekeane said. Check you grain crush and your Ph. Those two factors will increase your efficiency dramatically.

 

[BlkWater_brewer]

Have you used iodine to double check the starch conversion. When you do your sparge how do you add the sparge water? It makes a big difference. When you add water it should be a fine spray or slow trickle. It should take in the area of 45 minutes to sparge a typical 5 gallon recipe properly. As was said previously, the crush plays a major part as well, too fine and you'll get paste too course and conversion won't complete, this would be the easiest to check as well.

 

[peterj]

When you do your sparge how do you add the sparge water? It makes a big difference. When you add water it should be a fine spray or slow trickle. It should take in the area of 45 minutes to sparge a typical 5 gallon recipe properly.

I think he's batch sparging so this wouldn't apply.

 

[theCougfan97]

I think he's batch sparging so this wouldn't apply.

You are correct, I am batch sparging. I just drain the hot water via gravity from my HLT. Should I slow that down at all?

I read about grain crush and decided to adjust the mill at my LHBS to one step more fine then their signage reccomends. I had no trouble with a stuck sparge and still got the same 55%.

As for water. I use a culligan filter on my hose to filter the water. Should I be PH testing that water to determine what changes need to happen? If so what are my options? I read Seattle water didnt need much if any help in this area, but its worth a try.

Thanks again all.:rockin:

 

[RonPopeil]

Since you're having issues with your efficiency you may want to iodine test. If your ph is too high then your mash may be too high as well. Filtering won't fix this.

For the money you could also try the distilled water idea i mentioned.

 

[freisste]

As for water. I use a culligan filter on my hose to filter the water. Should I be PH testing that water to determine what changes need to happen? If so what are my options? I read Seattle water didnt need much if any help in this area, but its worth a try.

Thanks again all.:rockin:

Distilled water and acid malt are a really good start. A little more technical would be adding lactic (or I think phosphoric) acid to adjust pH. Really not too difficult if you play with the bru'n water spreadsheet.

 

[theCougfan97]

Distilled water and acid malt are a really good start. A little more technical would be adding lactic (or I think phosphoric) acid to adjust pH. Really not too difficult if you play with the bru'n water spreadsheet.

How do I know how much acid malt should I use if I go the distilled water route?

 

[Ctownbrewery]

What efficiency are you talking about? How are you calculating it?

 

[RonPopeil]

Good question. From all the mashing talk I assumed we were talking extract efficiency.

 

[Ctownbrewery]

Could be mash eff, or brew house eff... Just trying to give the best advice I can here.

 

[RonPopeil]

How do I know how much acid malt should I use if I go the distilled water route?

generally a half pound is enough to bring any grist down to where it needs to be. or a grist with a good amount of roasted barley will do the trick as well.

 

[theCougfan97]

Could be mash eff, or brew house eff... Just trying to give the best advice I can here.

Its all-grain, my recipe calls for a specific gravity measured before the boil, assuming a 70% mash efficiency. I get closer to 55%.

 

[freisste]

How do I know how much acid malt should I use if I go the distilled water route?

Short answer is bru'n water spreadsheet. Available free online if you do a search. It seems really complicated at first, but if you read the directions and ask a question or two, it will make sense.

Long answer is it depends on the other grains you use (as was mentioned, more dark grains tends to help). Also, if you happen to be adjusting your profile to mimic somewhere else in the world, you will make other small adjustments.

 

[RmikeVT]

What type of thermometer are you using? I've seen a couple threads on here where the poster was using a crappy turkey frier dial thermometer. You could be missing your temps by 10-20* if you are using one of those.

 

[peterj]

Distilled water and acid malt are a really good start. A little more technical would be adding lactic (or I think phosphoric) acid to adjust pH. Really not too difficult if you play with the bru'n water spreadsheet.

If you're going to use distilled water you will absolutely need to add some brewing salts to it. Gypsum and calcium chloride will probably suffice. You can't just use distilled water and acid malt. Personally I would just use lactic acid instead of acid malt. Acid malt can vary in it's actual acid content.

If you are going the water route though you need to do a little research on water chemistry and use a program that will give you ion concentrations and predicted mash pH. I use the Brewer's Friend calculator but many others use the Bru'n water spreadsheet. I think there is a pretty good explanation of water chemistry on the Bru'n water website as well. Just make sure to ignore any talk about RA. That's an outdated and not so helpful concept. Mash pH is all that matters. Or you could just go by this primer if you don't feel like getting that into it: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/brewing-water-chemistry-primer-198460/.

Honestly though, I don't think this will help your efficiency all that much. Unless your water is super out of whack right now, your pH should be fairly ok. Not out of range enough to cause really bad efficiency. And if it was, you would probably have some off flavors in your finished beer.

 

[gbx]

If you're going to use distilled water you will absolutely need to add some brewing salts to it. Gypsum and calcium chloride will probably suffice. You can't just use distilled water and acid malt. Personally I would just use lactic acid instead of acid malt. Acid malt can vary in it's actual acid content.

Unless you have incredibly alkaline water, I doubt it has anything to do with your water and is more likely related to your crush. I know from experience you do not NEED to add any brewing salts with distilled water. Modern malts will convert without salts. Don't mess with acidity if you don't have a pH meter.

...and mash efficiency of 55% isn't horrible because malt is cheap. I know people who have freaked out about a low mash efficiency that maybe cost them $2 extra per 5gal batch but when you talk to them about their propane burner you find they are only getting 2.5 batches out of a full propane tank. You energy efficiency is a much bigger concern as it will cost far more money and time than a few pounds of grain per batch.

 

[Zgreens]

Question OP: Can you please discribe your sparge process? long shot, but you dont mention sparge water, just that you drain the tun. 55% is about the efficiency I've seen of my first beer in a Parti Gyle brew... just sayin

 

[theCougfan97]

Question OP: Can you please discribe your sparge process? long shot, but you dont mention sparge water, just that you drain the tun. 55% is about the efficiency I've seen of my first beer in a Parti Gyle brew... just sayin

After draining my first runnings I add 190 degree sparge water to raise the temp of the grain above 170. I then recirculate (in place of a vourlaf) and drain.

 

[duboman]

Its all-grain, my recipe calls for a specific gravity measured before the boil, assuming a 70% mash efficiency. I get closer to 55%.

Since it hasn't been mentioned yet, are you using a refractometer or hydrometer for your pre-boil reading? If hydrometer, are you cooling your sample before reading the OG? Anything reading over 100oF is worthless, even with temp adjustment software, sample needs to be below 100oF and closer to 60 is best.

If you are not cooling your sample then you really have no idea what your efficiency is. Also, are you sure your volumes are correct, that will make a difference in your readings as well.

 

[glick]

Why does your water need to be so hot to achieve dough- in and mash- out temps?

 

[cobrem]

You may want to try to slow down your lautering. I got about 60-65% the first two batches I did with the valve either fully open or mostly open. The last batch i did I barely cracked the valve to drain, and it went up to about 77% with no other changes (crush, mashout etc...). It took a good 20-30 mins to drain the tun, but it worked like a charm.

 

[theCougfan97]

Since it hasn't been mentioned yet, are you using a refractometer or hydrometer for your pre-boil reading? If hydrometer, are you cooling your sample before reading the OG? Anything reading over 100oF is worthless, even with temp adjustment software, sample needs to be below 100oF and closer to 60 is best.

If you are not cooling your sample then you really have no idea what your efficiency is. Also, are you sure your volumes are correct, that will make a difference in your readings as well.

I use a temp adjusted refractometer. I am fairly certain my volumes are accurate as I measured and marked all my kettles and sight glasses.

 

[theCougfan97]

You may want to try to slow down your lautering. I got about 60-65% the first two batches I did with the valve either fully open or mostly open. The last batch i did I barely cracked the valve to drain, and it went up to about 77% with no other changes (crush, mashout etc...). It took a good 20-30 mins to drain the tun, but it worked like a charm.

Yea I was taught to drain slowly. When I recirculate I open the valve just enough to get a steady trickle. Same with draining into my boil kettle.