Can I plug a element directly into an outlet, no PID/SSR?

[humann_brewing]

I am trying to add some electricity to my current system by incorporating 2 elements. I am wondering if I could simple use a on/off approach instead of the PID and SSR method or is there a control that I could dial in how much power is supplied.

I am thinking 2x5500 elements running on separate 30 amp circuits.

If this is not possible, what are other options besides a PID/SSR?

 

[haberdasher]

A similar thread I started with some good info in it:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/e-hlt-w-no-pid-ssr-bcs-www-xxx-466652/

 

[kal]

You may plug the heating element directly into a wall receptacle but keep in mind that you may need some way to throttle power (otherwise it'll be on 100%). Normally people use a control panel of some sort for this.

If you're only boiling then running it 100% may be fine if your volume of beer is adequate for the element size: A 5500W heating element is good for boiling 8-20 gallons or so, or possibly more (depending on kettle configuration/insulation, ambient temperature, use of a kettle chimney, etc). If boiling less, use the 4500W heating element instead.

If not using a control panel you will need a way to turn the heating element on/off. Plugging it in/unplugging it is not a safe way to turn it on/off as there is a large amount of current that runs through the element. You need some sort of switch that is meant to handle 240V/30A for both the 4500W or 5500W element. A simple way to do this is to use a sub-panel breaker box off the main breaker panel, located near where you're using the heating element so it's easy to turn on/off. You would use a 2-pole GFI breaker rated for 240V/30A in this sub-panel breaker box as the switch to switch the 4500W or 5500W element on/off. That is a safe way.

Kal

 

[Bobby_M]

You can plug them in direct but you probably shouldn't. The first thing you want to do is install a GFCI 50amp spa panel to get the GFCI protection. Running dual 5500w elements is a great way to surge right to boiling temps (or liquor heating) but you absolutely want a way to throttle back. While you could go the VSSR route on the cheap, it's not much more to get a PID with manual mode, dual 40a SSRs (or one 50a) and a temp probe. You may not care to have temp set point functionality right now, but if you build it with a PID from day one, you won't have to change anything later. This is a huge convenience that is easy to do on electric.

 

[hio3791]

Just to add to Kal and Bobby, I brew 10 gallon batches, 12 gallons preboil and I set the PID to 65% to maintain a rolling boil (with a 5500 watt element). To do that without some sort of control, you would be plugging the element in for 1.3 seconds and out for 0.7 seconds... and you would have to do that repeatedly for the whole boil. Not only inconvenient and unsafe but I doubt there are many mechanical devices that can handle that kind of usage.

 

[kal]

Even many 'standard' mechanical relays are not meant for that sort of switching, which is why solid state relays (SSRs) are used. There's no physical contacts to wear out or get dirty.

Kal

 

[humann_brewing]

You may plug the heating element directly into a wall receptacle but keep in mind that you may need some way to throttle power (otherwise it'll be on 100%). Normally people use a control panel of some sort for this.

If you're only boiling then running it 100% may be fine if your volume of beer is adequate for the element size: A 5500W heating element is good for boiling 8-20 gallons or so, or possibly more (depending on kettle configuration/insulation, ambient temperature, use of a kettle chimney, etc). If boiling less, use the 4500W heating element instead.

If not using a control panel you will need a way to turn the heating element on/off. Plugging it in/unplugging it is not a safe way to turn it on/off as there is a large amount of current that runs through the element. You need some sort of switch that is meant to handle 240V/30A for both the 4500W or 5500W element. A simple way to do this is to use a sub-panel breaker box off the main breaker panel, located near where you're using the heating element so it's easy to turn on/off. You would use a 2-pole GFI breaker rated for 240V/30A in this sub-panel breaker box as the switch to switch the 4500W or 5500W element on/off. That is a safe way.

Kal

Thanks for all the great info, my original thought for the electric part was to supply supplemental heat to gas. Get to a boil faster and turn off electric and just maintain with gas. But now that I thinking about it I might as well just stick with electric.

The main reason I am doing this is well I think it will be cheaper and easier for me. I put in solar last December and we are producing way more than we use so I have energy to burn basically.

You can plug them in direct but you probably shouldn't. The first thing you want to do is install a GFCI 50amp spa panel to get the GFCI protection. Running dual 5500w elements is a great way to surge right to boiling temps (or liquor heating) but you absolutely want a way to throttle back. While you could go the VSSR route on the cheap, it's not much more to get a PID with manual mode, dual 40a SSRs (or one 50a) and a temp probe. You may not care to have temp set point functionality right now, but if you build it with a PID from day one, you won't have to change anything later. This is a huge convenience that is easy to do on electric.

I am actually thinking 2 pots, 1 element each but technically the options are wide open at this time. I have plenty of space on my panel and I am just going to punch through the wall on the other side for the outlets. Here are some pre-drywall pics

125 amp subpanel on the inside runs a lot of the stuff in the house

on the left are the wires coming out of the main panel on the outside that houses all the big draw items

A little back, they used leftover insulation to cover the main panel up, but I am guessing I can punch through the bottom and put the receptacles in. The main ones are headed up the top.

I am looking for the ability to do 2 simultaneous 10g batches so the theory was to have the 2 vessels with elements, heat strike water, run water into mash and mash, heat sparge water, sparge into secondary vessel, ie buckets or something and then get back into kettles with the elements to boil.

Just to add to Kal and Bobby, I brew 10 gallon batches, 12 gallons preboil and I set the PID to 65% to maintain a rolling boil (with a 5500 watt element). To do that without some sort of control, you would be plugging the element in for 1.3 seconds and out for 0.7 seconds... and you would have to do that repeatedly for the whole boil. Not only inconvenient and unsafe but I doubt there are many mechanical devices that can handle that kind of usage.

yeah, that doesn't sound like fun at all. I agree that the PID/SSR is not much more than a SSVR setup but even an SSVR setup is well over 100 for one element. so I was just hoping there was a better option but I guess I need to go big or go home.

 

[humann_brewing]

can someone point me to a good parts list for all of this stuff. I know the main stuff is the Auberins PID, SSR, heatsink but it's all the small stuff I would be missing. I suppose I'll get a big box to fit both of them in.

Also, Bobby mentioned the spa panel to get the GFCI, would this be handled by the breaker it put in the panel or would I still want to handle that at the box I build?

remember, am controlling 2 - 5500w elements separately

 

[kal]

Thanks for all the great info, my original thought for the electric part was to supply supplemental heat to gas. Get to a boil faster and turn off electric and just maintain with gas. But now that I thinking about it I might as well just stick with electric.

The main reason I am doing this is well I think it will be cheaper and easier for me. I put in solar last December and we are producing way more than we use so I have energy to burn basically.

Even if you didn't have free electricity, in most places in North America the cost of brewing a batch with electricity costs 5-10 times less than brewing with liquid propane. So there's absolutely no reason to turn off the electric and start using propane at 5-10 the cost to maintain the boil.

One big reason electric is cheaper is that 100% of the heat is transferred to the liquid whereas with fire below, most of the heat bounces off and goes up into the atmosphere.

The other issue is that if the heating element is installed on the side of the kettle, you have to be very careful not to burn it with the fire from the burner below.

If you're brewing indoors, then ventilation of the poisonous gases from using propane becomes an issue too. Generally speaking you need 10-12x the ventilation requirements with gas vs electric.

The November 2012 issue of BYO magazine summarized ventilation requirements as follows:

Electric based brewery: Divide the element size (in watts) by 17.6 to obtain the required CFM (cubic feet per minute). In my case I use a 5500W element in our boil kettle. 5500 / 17.6 = 312 CFM. I therefore require a fan that can move a minimum of 312 CFM in order to ventilate our electric brewery properly. Fans this size are readily available and reasonably inexpensive.

Gas based brewery: Divide the burner’s BTU/hour rating by 30. Because of the inefficiencies, a 80,000 BTU burner produces approximately the same amount of heat in the kettle as a 5500W element. 80,000 / 30 = 2666 CFM. I would therefore require a fan that can move 2666 CFM in order to ventilate a gas setup properly. A fan this size is not readily available. A commercial restaurant exhaust fan is likely required.

Because of the enormous ventilation requirements of a gas based brewery (12.5 times higher than an equivalent electric setup in my case), an indoor gas brewery was never easily achievable. It requires a massive amount of air evacuation as well as an equally substantial make-up air system. Large fans with ducting larger than 16" in diameter would have been required, making safe indoor gas brewing very expensive. For those to do go gas indoors and do it to code, it is not uncommon for the ventilation and make-up air system of a gas based indoor brewery to cost more than the brewing setup itself.

Kal

 

[kal]

can someone point me to a good parts list for all of this stuff. I know the main stuff is the Auberins PID, SSR, heatsink but it's all the small stuff I would be missing. I suppose I'll get a big box to fit both of them in.

Also, Bobby mentioned the spa panel to get the GFCI, would this be handled by the breaker it put in the panel or would I still want to handle that at the box I build?

remember, am controlling 2 - 5500w elements separately

I have complete instructions to build this sort of 50A back to back control panel right here, including parts lists and wiring diagrams. It shows you how to adapt my standard 30A (single heating element at a time) instructions found here. I go into gory detail every step of the way with 100's of photos. The standard 30A panel build instructions cover everything you'll want to know about GFCIs too.

Kal

 

[humann_brewing]

I have complete instructions to build this sort of 50A back to back control panel right here, including parts lists and wiring diagrams. It shows you how to adapt my standard 30A (single heating element at a time) instructions found here. I go into gory detail every step of the way with 100's of photos. The standard 30A panel build instructions cover everything you'll want to know about GFCIs too.

Kal

Thanks again Kal, I have starred at your setup many of times and tried to stop myself from drooling.

So the standard system is setup to run 1 5500 element at a time right, you just switch between what is needed.

If I wanted to be able to run 2 simultaneously I would simple need 2 30amp inputs into the box compared to the 1 and then wire it accordingly right?

I would like to keep the 5500w elements and not go with the 4500, so essentially dedicate a 30 amp breaker for each element.

I understand that running 2x5500w elements on 50 amps is running really close to the 50amps and probably something I would like to avoid.

 

[kal]

So the standard system is setup to run 1 5500 element at a time right, you just switch between what is needed.

Corrrect. This is the standard 30A control panel.

If I wanted to be able to run 2 simultaneously I would simple need 2 30amp inputs into the box compared to the 1 and then wire it accordingly right? I would like to keep the 5500w elements and not go with the 4500, so essentially dedicate a 30 amp breaker for each element.

No, probably not. Follow the changes required to adapt and build a 50A "back to back" control panel here. Most people are ok with one 50A supply is required to drive two 5500W elements. You can now control the elements on/off separately. Confirm with your electrician if you're allowed to draw more than 80% circuit capacity for this sort of use. There's more information/complete details in the FAQ questions in the link above.

Regardless I would not pull two separate circuits into the box but a 60A circuit if you really feel you need 30A x 2.

I understand that running 2x5500w elements on 50 amps is running really close to the 50amps and probably something I would like to avoid.

See above. It's 45.8 amps. Most electricians are fine with this but make sure to check.

Kal

 

[humann_brewing]

Corrrect. This is the standard 30A control panel.


No, probably not. Follow the changes required to adapt and build a 50A "back to back" control panel here. Most people are ok with one 50A supply is required to drive two 5500W elements. You can now control the elements on/off separately. Confirm with your electrician if you're allowed to draw more than 80% circuit capacity for this sort of use. There's more information/complete details in the FAQ questions in the link above.

Regardless I would not pull two separate circuits into the box but a 60A circuit if you really feel you need 30A x 2.


See above. It's 45.8 amps. Most electricians are fine with this but make sure to check.

Kal

Well I do live in California, and they like laws here

I found this
https://law.resource.org/pub/us/code/bsc.ca.gov/gov.ca.bsc.2013.03.pdf

from page 78 of the PDF

210.23 Permissible Loads. In no case shall the load
exceed the branch-circuit ampere rating. An individual
branch circuit shall be permitted to supply any load for
which it is rated. A branch circuit supplying two or more
outlets or receptacles shall supply only the loads specified
according to its size as specified in 210.23(A) through (D)
and as summarized in 210.24 and Table 210.24.

(A) 15- and 20-Ampere Branch Circuits. A 15- or 20-
ampere branch circuit shall be permitted to supply
lighting units or other utilization equipment, or a
combination of both, and shall comply with 210.23(A)(1)
and (A)(2).
Exception: The small-appliance branch circuits, laundry
branch circuits, and bathroom branch circuits required in
a dwelling unit(sj by 210.11(Cj(1), (Cj(2j, and (C)(3)
shall supply only the receptacle outlets specified in that
section.
(1) Cord-and-Plug-Connected Equipment Not
Fastened in Place. The rating of anyone cord-and-plug connected
utilization equipment not fastened in place shall
not exceed 80 percent of the branch-circuit ampere rating.
(2) Utilization Equipment Fastened in Place. The total
rating of utilization equipment fastened in place, other
than luminaires, shall not exceed 50 percent of the
branch-circuit ampere rating where lighting units, cordand-
plug-connected utilization equipment not tastened in
place, or both, are also supplied.

(B) 30-Ampere Branch Circuits. A 30-ampere branch
circuit shall be permitted to supply fixed lighting units with
heavy-duty lampholders in other than a dwelling unites) or
utilization equipment in any occupancy. A rating of any
one cord-and-plug-connected utilization equipment shall
not exceed 80 percent ofthe branch-circuit ampere rating.

(C) 40- and 50-Ampere Branch Circuits. A 40- or 50-
ampere branch circuit shall be permitted to supply cooking
appliances that are fastened in place in any occupancy. In
other than dwelling units, such circuits shall be permitted to
supply fixed lighting units with heavy-duty lampholders,
infrared heating units, or other utilization equipment.

(D) Branch Circuits Larger Than 50 Amperes. Branch
circuits larger than 50 amperes shall supply only
nonlighting outlet loads.

The real question is what is the harm of running 45.8 amps on a 50 amp circuit?

 

[kal]

Speak to your electrician. This has been discussed ad nauseam on the forum here in dozens of threads and what it basically comes down to is personal interpretation of the rules. I cover some the logic/reasons in the FAQ for the 50A back to back build instructions I linked to earlier if you want to dig into it.

Kal