Camco 5500W ULDW Scorched Back to Back Brews

[ryan_george]

My thoughts are still too much grain particulate in the wort. You need to clarify the wort more before boiling.

 

[hio3791]

I have a Camco 5500 watt ULWD, I brew 10 gal batches and after 1 year of use and 10 batches, I haven't had a scorched batch. 5 of those 10 batches were BIAB as I was "testing the waters". I got my bag from Wilserbrewer. I am not familiar with the bag you have but my guess would be that it leaves too much particulate.

Besides that, another question, sorry if I missed this but do you fire up your element while the bag is in the kettle?

 

[dyqik]

Just an update on this, after reading the suggestions from the posts i just redid the high gravity batch and set the max output on the PID to 80% and replaced the element with a brand new Camco ULWD element (http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000BPG4LI/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20)

I again had minor scorching, only a few parts of the element had black scorch build up on it but there is a slight but noticeable burnt taste to the batch... it must be the particulate in the batch from not sparging..

To sum up.

Three scorched high gravity batches
Element was checked post mash so it is definitely happening during the boil
Fine mesh BIAB from http://www.biab-brewing.com/
Element set to max 80%
Brand new element

I appreciate all the input to date.. any suggestions now?

What's the cycle time on your PID set to? If it's set to e.g. 10s, and you set it to 80% power, then you'll get full power for 8s, followed by no power for 2s. 8s at full power might be enough to heat the element enough to start the wort scorching. You should be able to see the cycle time by watching the Output LED flash in Manual mode.

Reducing the power via phase angle control (SSVR) or a fast PWM (Auber DSP, if I've understood how that works correctly) gives you true low power operation, rather than a slow on/off pulsing.

 

[mrsweet2u]

What's the cycle time on your PID set to? If it's set to e.g. 10s, and you set it to 80% power, then you'll get full power for 8s, followed by no power for 2s. 8s at full power might be enough to heat the element enough to start the wort scorching. You should be able to see the cycle time by watching the Output LED flash in Manual mode.

Reducing the power via phase angle control (SSVR) or a fast PWM (Auber DSP, if I've understood how that works correctly) gives you true low power operation, rather than a slow on/off pulsing.

On my 4352 I set the cycle time to 1 sec which is no problem for an ssr and raise SV till I get a good boil which for me is 213. Why not let the PID do the calculations?

 

[mcgster]

what were the ingredients of the wort? gravity? and whats your process? do you recirculate during the mash (This increases efficiency and makes the wort clear if done correctly) and yes many people do this with BIAB as well since I would think the liquid around the element is otherwise more confirned and stratification and scorching is more likely.
I cant remember but are you placing the bag directly onto the element or do you have a false bottom to keep it away from the element surface... If I remember you did state that the wort is scorching AFTER the bag is removed but I just dont see how...then again we dont know what the gravity of the liquid is in question.

Personally I dont know why you would go with a 5500w element instead of a 4500w element they are the same size and unless you are brewing 15 gallon+ size BIAB batches it is overkill and the higher watt density is more likely to cause problems like this than the 4500w.
I use 4500w elements and bring my HLT with 15 gallons in it from 55 to 163 in about 30 minutes... and I get a very vigorous boil on 11.5 gallons with my pid set at 75% (1 gallon per hour boiloff)

Wort was only 2 row and 7% amber malt, the bag is too fine and i can't recirculate the wort during the mash anymore. The original intent was to recirculate but the bag won't allow it.

Wort is 100% no question scorching during the boil, as i said this is easily verified by draining the kettle and checking the element prior to the boil which i have done both times.

Preboil gravity both times was 1.065, both were 90 min boils.

In regards to the 4500 vs the 5500 there is no difference watts / square inch... this keeps coming up but it isn't an issue. Directly from the Camco catalogue

"Ultra low watt density: burns at 50 watts per square inch - Resists dry firing -
Best when water has high mineral content - Heats in lime and sand buildup that would burn out ordinary elements"

ULWD is a classification of elements that all have 50W/sqin
LWD is a classification of elements that all have 75W/sqin
Standard is a classification of elements that all have 150W/sqin

 

[mcgster]

My thoughts are still too much grain particulate in the wort. You need to clarify the wort more before boiling.

This is where my head is at right now as well... i can't seem to pinpoint anything else, i may need to get a new bag that allows me to recirc..

 

[mcgster]

What's the cycle time on your PID set to? If it's set to e.g. 10s, and you set it to 80% power, then you'll get full power for 8s, followed by no power for 2s. 8s at full power might be enough to heat the element enough to start the wort scorching. You should be able to see the cycle time by watching the Output LED flash in Manual mode.

Reducing the power via phase angle control (SSVR) or a fast PWM (Auber DSP, if I've understood how that works correctly) gives you true low power operation, rather than a slow on/off pulsing.

I will have to look into this tomorrow.. i have two different PID's one auber and one MyPin and i get the settings confused so i'll check this and let you know.

All the Q&A is much appreciated from everyone.

 

[passedpawn]

+1 regarding the Auber DSP controller for boil kettles. I just switched my system from a pulse-width modulator to the DSP last month and I have to say that I think the DSP is better...plus it has a nice little readout of what the % power is set at. Great unit.

That device is PWM. The frequency is 100/60 Hz and the duty cycle is based on the dial, 0-100%, with a resolution of 1%.

I like the device, I'll probably use it myself when I rebuild.

 

[jwalkermed]

That device is PWM. The frequency is 100/60 Hz and the duty cycle is based on the dial, 0-100%, with a resolution of 1%.

I like the device, I'll probably use it myself when I rebuild.

I used both a PID and this device for my control panel. I haven't really used manual mode in the PID so I can't compare but I really like the knob on this device. I'm doing single vessel recirculating eBIAB btw.

 

[mcgster]

I used both a PID and this device for my control panel. I haven't really used manual mode in the PID so I can't compare but I really like the knob on this device. I'm doing single vessel recirculating eBIAB btw.

What is the part number of the Auber manual control and do you wire it up to the same SSR as the PID to the same inputs? That is a nice looking setup.

 

[dyqik]

On my 4352 I set the cycle time to 1 sec which is no problem for an ssr and raise SV till I get a good boil which for me is 213. Why not let the PID do the calculations?

Because the PID isn't doing and can't do the calculations when the liquid it's controlling is going through a phase transition. As the liquid it's controlling the temperature of passes through boiling point, there's no change in temperature as you add more heat. The feedback loop the PID is operating fails at boiling point.

By setting the SV to 213, assuming your boiling point is in the typical 211 to 212.5 range seen at sea level (it varies with the air pressure and wort composition), you've really just set your element to be on full power, except when the convection of the wort causes temperature fluctuations at the sensor. This doesn't achieve the aim of reducing the power supplied to the wort to maintain a steady boil. Now, you may be lucky in that the fluctuations at the sensor caused by convection do a reasonable job of controlling your boil, but that's going to be very variable, based on the wort type and anything that causes variations in bubble formation during boiling. Change something in your kettle, and you will likely get a very different average power supplied to the wort and different boil-off rate.

 

[augiedoggy]

Wort was only 2 row and 7% amber malt, the bag is too fine and i can't recirculate the wort during the mash anymore. The original intent was to recirculate but the bag won't allow it.

Wort is 100% no question scorching during the boil, as i said this is easily verified by draining the kettle and checking the element prior to the boil which i have done both times.

Preboil gravity both times was 1.065, both were 90 min boils.

In regards to the 4500 vs the 5500 there is no difference watts / square inch... this keeps coming up but it isn't an issue. Directly from the Camco catalogue

"Ultra low watt density: burns at 50 watts per square inch - Resists dry firing -
Best when water has high mineral content - Heats in lime and sand buildup that would burn out ordinary elements"

ULWD is a classification of elements that all have 50W/sqin
LWD is a classification of elements that all have 75W/sqin
Standard is a classification of elements that all have 150W/sqin

OK think this out for a second before you take some customer service reps or marketing reps word as gospel....

A camco doesn't make the elements with there name on it they are a distributor that has other manufactuers make the stuff they label as thier own in many cases as well as this one. (my ace hardware branded elements are made by the same oem manufacturer and are identical in every way.)

B , both the camco ripple 4500w and 5500w elements share the same dimensions... they are both 14.6 overall length and the elements are the same diameter.... so therefore they both have the same surface area, Now the straight "non ripple" elements camco also markets as ulwd are much shorter than the ripple elements and have less sq inches of element surface than the ripple units.....
Now please explain to me how since the ripple units have the same sq inch of surface area but different wattages applieto that surface area how the watt density can be the same between the 2 ripple units let alone the straight vs longer ripple units as you say they told you.
Also I would like to know how camco can say the same about the smaller 11.22 length 4500 and 5500w elements they market as ulwd when there are lwd elements with more surface area and the same wattage? Can the lime life surface really lower the wattage applied or are they just marketed that way because they are less likely to acquire mineral build up from hard water ?

 

[mrsweet2u]

Yup, you're right. Because my controller is a ramp/soak I didn't get that nice PWM the other controllers have so the 1 sec cycle achieves the same results and yes the boil sits at 211.5 which is 1.5 off SV so the PID is cycling the element maintaining a steady boil.

Because the PID isn't doing and can't do the calculations when the liquid it's controlling is going through a phase transition. As the liquid it's controlling the temperature of passes through boiling point, there's no change in temperature as you add more heat. The feedback loop the PID is operating fails at boiling point.

By setting the SV to 213, assuming your boiling point is in the typical 211 to 212.5 range seen at sea level (it varies with the air pressure and wort composition), you've really just set your element to be on full power, except when the convection of the wort causes temperature fluctuations at the sensor. This doesn't achieve the aim of reducing the power supplied to the wort to maintain a steady boil. Now, you may be lucky in that the fluctuations at the sensor caused by convection do a reasonable job of controlling your boil, but that's going to be very variable, based on the wort type and anything that causes variations in bubble formation during boiling. Change something in your kettle, and you will likely get a very different average power supplied to the wort and different boil-off rate.

 

[augiedoggy]

Yup, you're right. Because my controller is a ramp/soak I didn't get that nice PWM the other controllers have so the 1 sec cycle achieves the same results and yes the boil sits at 211.5 which is 1.5 off SV so the PID is cycling the element maintaining a steady boil.

From what I understand and the way mine work it wouldnt cycle through anything if this was the case? it would just stay on at 100% duty cycle while attempting to reach the unobtainable setpoint in the most efficient way.... and with say 5 gallons and a 5500w element that would lead to an extremely violent boil and hotter a hotter element surface right? I generally boil at 65-70% with a smaller 4500w element and 6.5 gallons...

 

[mcgster]

OK think this out for a second before you take some customer service reps or marketing reps word as gospel....

A camco doesn't make the elements with there name on it they are a distributor that has other manufactuers make the stuff they label as thier own in many cases as well as this one. (my ace hardware branded elements are made by the same oem manufacturer and are identical in every way.)

B , both the camco ripple 4500w and 5500w elements share the same dimensions... they are both 14.6 overall length and the elements are the same diameter.... so therefore they both have the same surface area, Now the straight "non ripple" elements camco also markets as ulwd are much shorter than the ripple elements and have less sq inches of element surface than the ripple units.....
Now please explain to me how since the ripple units have the same sq inch of surface area but different wattages applieto that surface area how the watt density can be the same between the 2 ripple units let alone the straight vs longer ripple units as you say they told you.
Also I would like to know how camco can say the same about the smaller 11.22 length 4500 and 5500w elements they market as ulwd when there are lwd elements with more surface area and the same wattage? Can the lime life surface really lower the wattage applied or are they just marketed that way because they are less likely to acquire mineral build up from hard water ?

I'm not taking someone's word for this it says directly in the sales flyer and on the technical specifications for the element that it burns at 50 w/in2. I have never held the two elements in my hand at the same time so I don't know if the diameter of the elements are the same or what the case may be but I am aware that if they falsely marketed that their elements burn at 50 w/in2 there is nothing I can do about it. Either way, regardless of how you feel about these elements and whether or not they perform at the spec they are sold at hundreds if not thousands of people use the 5500w camco ULWD elements and they don't report scorching like I am having in addition I have brewed dozens of batches with the same element and not had scorching. I don't want this thread to be about the technical specs of camco elements because that isn't the issue. That would make a great thread on its own but it really has no place here.

 

[rudylyon57]

One thing we all need to remember is that these water heater elements (either LWD or ULWD) are intended to heat water in a tank pressurized to 60 or so psi. At a typical hot water tank pressure the boiling point of water is just under 300F. The point being that they are not designed to boil but rather heat water.

When we boil wort at atmospheric pressure we are not using these elements as intended, even though they work great in almost all cases. The boiling action, that we want, comes from the creation of released water vapor bubbles on the element surface. As these bubbles are created the localized ability to transfer heat from the element is greatly reduced and temperature increases. This is why the scorching or burning develops. As others have eluded, I suspect the makeup of wort also plays a role in how the boiling film, resultant vapor and bubbles release from the element surface.

Since PID control will not work in the phase change realm of boiling, we have no choice but to reduce to a low CONSTANT power level that limits the surface temperature of the element during boiling.

My two cents for this very interesting conversation.

 

[jwalkermed]

What is the part number of the Auber manual control and do you wire it up to the same SSR as the PID to the same inputs? That is a nice looking setup.

http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2_30&products_id=444

DSPR1

I do have them both controlling one SSR. That's what the 3 selector switch is for. I have it wired to use either the PID or PWM. I used 3 sets of NO contact switches to wire it. 1 set for power, the other 2 sets for the + and - terminals of the SSR.

My setup is a modified scaled back Kal clone from theelectricbrewery.com

 

[augiedoggy]

One thing we all need to remember is that these water heater elements (either LWD or ULWD) are intended to heat water in a tank pressurized to 60 or so psi. At a typical hot water tank pressure the boiling point of water is just under 300F. The point being that they are not designed to boil but rather heat water.
......

Since PID control will not work in the phase change realm of boiling, we have no choice but to reduce to a low CONSTANT power level that limits the surface temperature of the element during boiling.

My two cents for this very interesting conversation.

Exactly, and thats my point... camcos market it in relation to its performance with water... I know there specs are BS because the two factors in watt density are surface area and its relationship to wattage... the 4500 and 5500w element versions or the ripple are the same size and surface type and the straight versions while being much shorter than the ripple are made of the same diameter and type element tubing and the 5500 and 4500w versions are the same size according to camco... So therefore the watt density DOES in fact change among all four of these...

Since something you are or arent doing is causing you to have scorching issues and so far it doesnt look like we are going to pinpoint what I simply suggested a lower wattage and lower watt density element which will make the issue less likely to occur. at less than the cost of ingredients on another scorched brew I figured it was a worthwhile option. I didnt mean to sidetrack your quest but this all has relevance in preventing your problem. Whether or not its the cause or not its a contributing factor in aiding or stopping it.

 

[GotPushrods]

No idea if someone has already mentioned this, but what is the resistance of the element? Should be just over 10 ohms. I've never seen it, but maybe something is screwed up internally and it's lower resistance / higher wattage than you expect? Just a shot in the dark here. I also use a 5.5kw ripple with no hint of scorching.

edit: And for reference, my element is 10.45 ohms, running at 247 volts. That's 5,838 watts with no problems.

 

[SilverZero]

I'm dying to know the MODEL NUMBER of the element. Several times the OP mentioned he polished it up until it was "shiny". My Camco 5500w ripple element, 02962/02963, is dull gray. It was never shiny. My understanding is that the shiny coating is only found on LWD or normal WD elements. It's also something to avoid as it comes off in the wort environment (based on reviews I've read).

I can't say whether the watt density is the difference, but I've never seen a shiny 5500w ripple element before. I'm just trying to eliminate variables here.

 

[mcgster]

I'm dying to know the MODEL NUMBER of the element. Several times the OP mentioned he polished it up until it was "shiny". My Camco 5500w ripple element, 02962/02963, is dull gray. It was never shiny. My understanding is that the shiny coating is only found on LWD or normal WD elements. It's also something to avoid as it comes off in the wort environment (based on reviews I've read).

I can't say whether the watt density is the difference, but I've never seen a shiny 5500w ripple element before. I'm just trying to eliminate variables here.

Its the 5500W fold back ripple ULWD element, by shiny i meant showing no tarnish, there is only one model of Camco 5500ULWD ripple model as far as i know.

 

[mrsweet2u]

The PID calculates a precise power output based on an algorithm that considers the system, time off setpoint and number of degrees off setpoint. These parameters are set in auto tune when you set up your controller. Two other parameters to be concerned with are HY and T. Hy is hysteresis and tells the controller how much the PV can deviate, I set mine to 0. T is cycle time which for an ssr is 2. What does this mean? Let's say the PV is .1 below SV and the PID has calculated 10% power, the element will come on for .2 seconds and be off for 1.8 secs (t=2sec). :hs: 10% duty cycle :hs:
As I said earlier I set mine to 213 for a nice boil based on my parameter settings and a 90 minute boil. A longer boil could be a problem as I (PID) would start increasing the ramp over time

From what I understand and the way mine work it wouldnt cycle through anything if this was the case? it would just stay on at 100% duty cycle while attempting to reach the unobtainable setpoint in the most efficient way.... and with say 5 gallons and a 5500w element that would lead to an extremely violent boil and hotter a hotter element surface right? I generally boil at 65-70% with a smaller 4500w element and 6.5 gallons...

 

[mrsweet2u]

I have the DSPR1 in my panel as well, works great. I've been using it to maintain ferment temperatures in my brew room with the heat off. Temperature difference of 20 degrees and ferment varies .1 degree (68.9 to 69) I also use the alarm contact on the PID with a setting of 69 . Suprising how little the element comes on. Full attenuation by the way so the yeast is fine. DSPR1 set to 1% for ferment.

http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2_30&products_id=444

DSPR1

I do have them both controlling one SSR. That's what the 3 selector switch is for. I have it wired to use either the PID or PWM. I used 3 sets of NO contact switches to wire it. 1 set for power, the other 2 sets for the + and - terminals of the SSR.

My setup is a modified scaled back Kal clone from theelectricbrewery.com

 

[mrsweet2u]

Is your "element" light 220V? I didn't put a light in for the element on my panel and I wish I had....might have to change that. Nice lamacoids. ( good job overall as well

I used both a PID and this device for my control panel. I haven't really used manual mode in the PID so I can't compare but I really like the knob on this device. I'm doing single vessel recirculating eBIAB btw.

 

[indevrede]

I mill finely, BIAB, and squeeze the bag. I get a ton of break material in the kettle post-mash / pre-boil. It begins to settle pretty quickly and since the Camco ULWD element I use is mounted low in the kettle, I make sure to circulate the wort on the way up to boiling. I run the element at 100% and have never had scorching, even at 1.091 gravity.

Rather than filtering (as some have suggested), just try stirring on the approach to boil (as others have suggested). At that point, the agitation eliminates the scorching risk.

It's also best to clean the element regularly.

 

[augiedoggy]

The PID calculates a precise power output based on an algorithm that considers the system, time off setpoint and number of degrees off setpoint. These parameters are set in auto tune when you set up your controller. Two other parameters to be concerned with are HY and T. Hy is hysteresis and tells the controller how much the PV can deviate, I set mine to 0. T is cycle time which for an ssr is 2. What does this mean? Let's say the PV is .1 below SV and the PID has calculated 10% power, the element will come on for .2 seconds and be off for 1.8 secs (t=2sec). :hs: 10% duty cycle :hs:
As I said earlier I set mine to 213 for a nice boil based on my parameter settings and a 90 minute boil. A longer boil could be a problem as I (PID) would start increasing the ramp over time

mine increases to 100% output within a matter of minutes....I tried it yesterday but Im using a different pid with different setting set for pid operation. I would think setting your up the way you have it would make it work less efficiently for other processes and if you only use it for the boil it makes more sense to me to just spend the $20 for a pid with manual mode and avoid all this but if it works for you thats cool its your system after all...

 

[mrsweet2u]

$20...

mine increases to 100% output within a matter of minutes....i tried it yesterday but im using a different pid with different setting set for pid operation. I would think setting your up the way you have it would make it work less efficiently for other processes and if you only use it for the boil it makes more sense to me to just spend the $20 for a pid with manual mode and avoid all this but if it works for you thats cool its your system after all...

 

[augiedoggy]

$20...

yes, the seller who sells them for $20 shipped is out of stock but here is a link to another that sells the for $26 with free shipping
http://www.ebay.com/itm/TD4-SNR-Dua...999?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35d4f621d7
and if you dont want to wait for it to come from china heres one for $30 that includes the ssr...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Dual-PID-Te...387?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19d0ff9dbb

I use three of these and they work great. they make a model with one or two alarms I have both and the manual mode is easy to use once you know how.
amazon and newegg also carrys them.

 

[biertourist]

I'll just jump on with what pretty much everyone else has said so far, I also have a Camco Incoloy (grayish black) element but mine is 4500 watt low density and not the ripple ultra low watt density.

I also leave the element at 100% up until the boil and then drop it down to 65% which works well on both 5 gallon and 10 gallon batches usually. I don't get scorching either.

Incoloy stainless is used for this application because it reduces fouling and build up of crust that could burn. If you have a shiny 304 or 316 element that COULD be part of the problem but my best guess lies elsewhere.


One huge difference between your system and most people on here is that you're doing BIAB: You're element is getting covered in slightly different crud than us, we dont' have early super starchy material getting stuck to our elements, we don't have a lot of complex unfermentable sugars getting crusted on it, we're getting most mono, bi, and tri glycerides and MAYBE starches just are more likely to stick and burn later.

It's a huge stab in the dark but it is certainly one thing that's different from your setup and most of ours.


Adam

 

[biertourist]

I mill finely, BIAB, and squeeze the bag. I get a ton of break material in the kettle post-mash / pre-boil.

This is the goop that I theorize is getting burned on the element.

For the record, by definition, it's not "break material" as there is neither hot break nor cold break material prior to boiling. -It sounds like physical chunks / pieces / powder of the barley germ. This is something that those of us who do not BIAB don't have to deal with and is definitely a difference that the OP (and other BIAB electric brewers) has to deal with. Could be that this material from the mash is what's getting burned on the element.


Adam