Camco 5500W ULDW Scorched Back to Back Brews

[jwalkermed]

Is your "element" light 220V? I didn't put a light in for the element on my panel and I wish I had....might have to change that. Nice lamacoids. ( good job overall as well

Yes the yellow element light is 220V. Don't need it but it's nice visual feedback that the element is firing.

 

[mcgster]

This is the goop that I theorize is getting burned on the element.

For the record, by definition, it's not "break material" as there is neither hot break nor cold break material prior to boiling. -It sounds like physical chunks / pieces / powder of the barley germ. This is something that those of us who do not BIAB don't have to deal with and is definitely a difference that the OP (and other BIAB electric brewers) has to deal with. Could be that this material from the mash is what's getting burned on the element.


Adam

I'm going to try and get a new brew bag that will allow be to recirc again. When i used to recirc my brews they pre boil wort had much less particulate in it and i'm betting that this is the issue!

 

[Yambor44]

I only run my PID at 65% for 13.5 gallons of pre-boil wort. Never had a scorching problem with my brew kettle set up. I have a ULD 5500W element but it is not shiny, it is dark in color. I too have used BIAB method with same element, but I do recirculate back thru the top of the bag during the mash. I do not recirculate before and up to the boil.

My gut tells me you are running the PID too high at 80% and that a setting is off. I called Auber several times to get mine set right when I first started using it. I use the SYL-2352 PID.

 

[Ctrl-Z]

Have you verified that your SSR ( Assuming your using one) hasn't failed and gone permanently open, thus meaning your element will be running 100% all the time when selected and not controlled in anyway by the PiD.

When SSR's fail the normally fall into the Normally Closed state (NC).

 

[mcgster]

Exactly, and thats my point... camcos market it in relation to its performance with water... I know there specs are BS because the two factors in watt density are surface area and its relationship to wattage... the 4500 and 5500w element versions or the ripple are the same size and surface type and the straight versions while being much shorter than the ripple are made of the same diameter and type element tubing and the 5500 and 4500w versions are the same size according to camco... So therefore the watt density DOES in fact change among all four of these...

I have been thinking about this and something just didn't add up and I know why. It's not correct to say that the two factors in watt density are surface area and wattage. Watt density is determined by the material used to make the element and how much of it is used.

So if the same material is used to make both elements, the 4500w and the 5500w they either HAVE to be different sizes or HAVE to have different wattages. There is no other option.

 

[augiedoggy]

I have been thinking about this and something just didn't add up and I know why. It's not correct to say that the two factors in watt density are surface area and wattage. Watt density is determined by the material used to make the element and how much of it is used.

So if the same material is used to make both elements, the 4500w and the 5500w they either HAVE to be different sizes or HAVE to have different wattages. There is no other option.

EXACTLY!! that my point.... the 4500w ripple element is the same size and made of the same incolony (spelled wrong) steel so they ARE DIFFERENT WATT DENSITIES because of wattage regardless of what camco says... watt density is determined by the surface area and as long as its not porous it does not matter what it is there is still so many watts of power being applied to every square inch of surface.

There is a formula of dividing the wattage by square inches of element and that gives the watt density from what I remember. basically the higher the wattage of the same size element the higher the watt density.

 

[dyqik]

Watt density is just the power output divided by the surface area of the heated part of the element. The material doesn't affect it. It's just watts per square inch of active element.

To have the same watt density, a higher power element has have more active surface area. It can be made of anything you like. Now, it might look the same as lower power element if it has more active area, and the lower power element has a larger dead region.

If the design is the same using the same heating element material, then a higher power element has both a higher wattage AND a larger surface area.

Edit: cross posted with the above post. As he says, if two elements have the same active surface area, and different power outputs, they must have different watt densities. The surface material still doesn't matter.

 

[augiedoggy]

I corrected this sentence for you,

So if the same material is used to make both elements, the 4500w and the 5500w they either HAVE to be different sizes or HAVE to have different watt Densities. There is no other option.

 

[mcgster]

The amount of watts that flows through the element is determined by the material the element is made of... the material is certainly of paramount importance in watt density... it determines the power??

Watt density is just the power output divided by the surface area of the heated part of the element. The material doesn't affect it. It's just watts per square inch of active element.

To have the same watt density, a higher power element has have more active surface area. It can be made of anything you like. Now, it might look the same as lower power element if it has more active area, and the lower power element has a larger dead region.

If the design is the same using the same heating element material, then a higher power element has both a higher wattage AND a larger surface area.

Edit: cross posted with the above post. As he says, if two elements have the same active surface area, and different power outputs, they must have different watt densities. The surface material still doesn't matter.

 

[augiedoggy]

and thats why camco is full if it if they told you all thier ULWD are the same watt density.... they make a small 11.22 length fold over element which is about 18" in length .... how can a the ripple element thats like 6-8" longer have the same watt density?? IT DOESNT! therefore its more likely to scorch than the larger element with the heat spread out over a larger area...

 

[augiedoggy]

The amount of watts that flows through the element is determined by the material the element is made of... the material is certainly of paramount importance in watt density... it determines the power??

I'm pretty sure thats wrong... the wattage is determined by the resistance of the element inside of the outer shell made of different materials... the heat from the element gets transferred either way.... it doesnt just disappear it may take a bit longer for some thicker surfaces to heat up but its still the same type of element and the same amount of energy being dissipated into the same sq footage of surface that comes into direct contact with the substance being heated.

 

[mcgster]

EXACTLY!! that my point.... the 4500w ripple element is the same size and made of the same incolony (spelled wrong) steel so they ARE DIFFERENT WATT DENSITIES because of wattage regardless of what camco says... watt density is determined by the surface area and as long as its not porous it does not matter what it is there is still so many watts of power being applied to every square inch of surface.

There is a formula of dividing the wattage by square inches of element and that gives the watt density from what I remember. basically the higher the wattage of the same size element the higher the watt density.

No.. not exactly lol we are saying two totally different things..

What determines the power of the element?

The properties of the material used to make the element, and the amount of it used.

The resistivity of an element converts the electricity that flows through it into heat.

There is NO POSSIBLE WAY that the 4500W and 5500W elements can have different watt densities if they are made of the same material and are the exact same size??

 

[augiedoggy]

An example,
I had scorching in my rims tube with my small 10" stainless steel surfaced cartridge heater which was 800w...I now use a longer stainless cartridge heater made of the exact same material with the same suface but the element is 25 1/2" long.... this element doesnt even develop any film on it let alone scorching and its a 1000w element.
the 10" element was over 80w persq inch density and the 1000w element is under 40w per sq inch density.

 

[augiedoggy]

No.. not exactly lol we are saying two totally different things..

What determines the power of the element?

The properties of the material used to make the element, and the amount of it used.

The resistivity of an element converts the electricity that flows through it into heat.

There is NO POSSIBLE WAY that the 4500W and 5500W elements can have different watt densities if they are made of the same material and are the exact same size??

if you transfer 1000w to an electric stove element and then turn up the power to 2500w with a knob you are effectively changing the watt density of the element surface.... these element accomplish the same thing with different resistance levels in the elements used inside the same "lime life shell" therefore the amount of energy in every squre inch of surface area is different! how are you not understanding this?
its just like using an ssvr to change the power level going to the element effectively reducing its watt density!
Google it if you dont believe us.

 

[mcgster]

if you transfer 1000w to an electric stove element and then turn up the power to 2500w you are effectively changing the watt density of the element surface.... these element accomplish the same thing with different resistance levels in the elements used inside the same "lime life shell" therefore the amount of energy in every squre inch of surface area is different! how are you not understanding this?
its just like using an ssvr to change the power level going to the element effectively reducing its watt density!
Google it if you dont believe us.

Turning up or down your stove is akin to changing the % of power going to your element and it is not at all what we are talking about here.

 

[mcgster]

Power produced or consumed by a flow of electricity is equal to the voltage times the current..

P =VI

And V = IR right? So..

Power used (heat produced) by an element is I2R

So heat is proportional to resistance and the square of the current.

This has nothing to do with PIDs or REOSTATS or SSVRs, if you hook your 5500W element up to a plug and plug it directly in it will produce heat… this is what we are talking about… the heat produced when a 5500W and 4500W element is hooked up to a 220V power supply without modification… your equipment doesn’t have one sweet clue what size your element is.

 

[augiedoggy]

Turning up or down your stove is akin to changing the % of power going to your element and it is not at all what we are talking about here.

? if there is 1000w of power being transferred to the surface of the same element vs 2500w there is a different watt density on that same surface area!

 

[augiedoggy]

https://elementsofheating.wordpress.com/2013/07/24/watts-density-explained/

dictionary definition,
http://www.engineering-dictionary.org/Watt_Density

"The watts emanating from each square inch of heated surface area of a heater. Expressed in units of watts per square inch. "


so how exactly does this stay the same if you change the amount of wattage going to the element?
one has everything to do with the other.

 

[mcgster]

? if there is 1000w of power being transferred to the surface of the same element vs 2500w there is a different watt density on that same surface area!

We are talking about 4500 / 5500 elements not adjusting the power with a secondary devices you called me out for saying my statements are wrong and told me to google it and you aren't even reading my posts..

 

[mcgster]

https://elementsofheating.wordpress.com/2013/07/24/watts-density-explained/

dictionary definition,
http://www.engineering-dictionary.org/Watt_Density

"The watts emanating from each square inch of heated surface area of a heater. Expressed in units of watts per square inch. "


so how exactly does this stay the same if you change the amount of wattage going to the element?
one has everything to do with the other.

Man.. you are on some other thread.. not the one i am posting about..

 

[dyqik]

No.. not exactly lol we are saying two totally different things..

What determines the power of the element?

The properties of the material used to make the element, and the amount of it used.

The resistivity of an element converts the electricity that flows through it into heat.

There is NO POSSIBLE WAY that the 4500W and 5500W elements can have different watt densities if they are made of the same material and are the exact same size??

Now I see why you're so confused.

The outer material of the element doesn't set the resistance of the element. That's set by the resistance of a heating wire inside the element. An element is a single piece construction, an outer material is put over a resistance wire inside the element, and the space filled with a insulating heat transfer material. Otherwise the mains power would be connected to the outer shell. Heating elements are available in same shells with different resistances per inch of heating element, and hence different watt densities.

You can't tell the power or resistance of an element by looking at the material on the outside. The 4500W ripple element has a more resistive internal wire than the 5500W ripple element, but the outer shells are identical in both material and size. The 4500W element passes less current at 220V than the 5500W element inside exactly the same shell. Hence the 4500W element has a lower watt density.

 

[mcgster]

Now I see why you're so confused.

The outer material of the element doesn't set the resistance of the element. That's set by the resistance of a heating wire inside the element. An element is a single piece construction, an outer material is put over a resistance wire inside the element, and the space filled with a insulating heat transfer material. Otherwise the mains power would be connected to the outer shell. Heating elements are available in same shells with different resistances per inch of heating element, and hence different watt densities.

You can't tell the power or resistance of an element by looking at the material on the outside. The 4500W ripple element has a more resistive internal wire than the 5500W ripple element, but the outer shells are identical in both material and size. The 4500W element passes less current at 220V than the 5500W element inside exactly the same shell. Hence the 4500W element has a lower watt density.

Thank you dyqik, this is what i was looking for... b/c the other options would defy the laws of physics! I'm used to dealing with eletric resistance elements in hot air heating systems which are generally an exposed uniform material, i wasn't aware that water heater elements are insulated like that.

 

[augiedoggy]

We are talking about 4500 / 5500 elements not adjusting the power with a secondary devices you called me out for saying my statements are wrong and told me to google it and you aren't even reading my posts..

Its the same thing.... a 4500w element inside the same element enclosure as used in the 5500w model is going to result in two different watt densities... your changing the amount amount watts being applied to the same element shell, therefore changing the watt density of the element. this whole debacle started because you stated the 5500w and 45oow elements have the same watt density, they dont,

 

[doug293cz]

Now I see why you're so confused.

The outer material of the element doesn't set the resistance of the element. That's set by the resistance of a heating wire inside the element. An element is a single piece construction, an outer material is put over a resistance wire inside the element, and the space filled with a insulating heat transfer material. Otherwise the mains power would be connected to the outer shell. Heating elements are available in same shells with different resistances per inch of heating element, and hence different watt densities.

You can't tell the power or resistance of an element by looking at the material on the outside. The 4500W ripple element has a more resistive internal wire than the 5500W ripple element, but the outer shells are identical in both material and size. The 4500W element passes less current at 220V than the 5500W element inside exactly the same shell. Hence the 4500W element has a lower watt density.

Thank &deity someone finally explained the construction of a water heater element correctly. Now people can stop talking past each other.

Brew on

 

[augiedoggy]

Now I see why you're so confused.

The outer material of the element doesn't set the resistance of the element. That's set by the resistance of a heating wire inside the element. An element is a single piece construction, an outer material is put over a resistance wire inside the element, and the space filled with a insulating heat transfer material. Otherwise the mains power would be connected to the outer shell. Heating elements are available in same shells with different resistances per inch of heating element, and hence different watt densities.

You can't tell the power or resistance of an element by looking at the material on the outside. The 4500W ripple element has a more resistive internal wire than the 5500W ripple element, but the outer shells are identical in both material and size. The 4500W element passes less current at 220V than the 5500W element inside exactly the same shell. Hence the 4500W element has a lower watt density.

I did state above more than once that there are different elements in the same enclosure...
Bottom line... who here was incorrect? You didnt ask for an explanation you simply kept insisting I was wrong and implied you knew exactly what you were talking about... Thats frustrating...

 

[augiedoggy]

Fyi

i'm pretty sure thats wrong... The wattage is determined by the resistance of the element inside of the outer shell made of different materials... .

 

[augiedoggy]

and here

.... these element accomplish the same thing with different resistance levels in the elements used inside the same "lime life shell"

 

[mcgster]

and here

Augie what is annoying is when you are looking for an answer and someone hijacks your thread and ignores your questions when they are legitimate.

I put questions about the resistance in the element and you replied saying it was like adjusting the rheostat on a stove which is dead wrong and not the point. Yes i see where you alluded to this above but when you are throwing out random points that are not correct in response to my question it gets lost

Either way, this is not what is causing my scorching at all, as i said initially i had brewed dozens of batches with the 5500 W without scorching.

 

[mcgster]

Its the same thing.... a 4500w element inside the same element enclosure as used in the 5500w model is going to result in two different watt densities... your changing the amount amount watts being applied to the same element shell, therefore changing the watt density of the element. this whole debacle started because you stated the 5500w and 45oow elements have the same watt density, they dont,

Augie, i posted the CAMCO link saying they had the same watt densities. I didn't make this up out of thin air.

 

[augiedoggy]

Augie, i posted the CAMCO link saying they had the same watt densities. I didn't make this up out of thin air.

I know this and your not the only one who has quoted Camco but after all this does camcos claim make sense? thats why I asked you to think it through way back when this came up.... Had I known you didnt know how the elements are made or worked I would have tried to explain that.

And honestly, if you go back and read the thread you would see you are the one that revived this topic yesterday long after it was back on track and long after I dropped it a couple days ago after you mentioned you did not want alternative solutions but wanted to know why you were having the issue with what you have.. I just explained my actions and left it at that....


you can drive around in snow all winter long without 4wd or snow tires and not have an accident it the snow but it doesnt mean that the snow tires or 4wd wouldnt help your chances of avoiding an accident in the future... That was my point, Like I said before I totally agree something else is contributing to the scorching but it doesnt mean a better matched less intense element wont help avoid it in the same situation. I was trying to help and you got all defensive and stated what I said makes no sense.

In any case the horse has been beat ...