Calling All Roggeneers!

[specharka]

I am looking forward to taking a crack at the Roggenbier style, but seeing as I’ve never even tasted one before, I was hoping for some advice from the HBT community before I brew it. I imagine the resulting flavor is a cross between a dunkelweizen and a rye ale. Problem is, I really don’t enjoy hefe banana bombs, so I want to emphasize the phenolic side as much as possible here.

The beer is largely based on my dunkelweizen recipe, exchanging wheat for rye.

Batch Size: 4.50 gal Style: Roggenbier (27 )
Boil Size: 5.70 gal. Style Guide: BJCP 2015
Color: 16.4 SRM. Equipment: Grainfather
Bitterness: 18.5 IBUs. Boil Time: 60 min
Est OG: 1.051 (12.6° P) Mash Profile: Temperature Mash, 2 Step, Medium Body
Est FG: 1.013 SG (3.3° P) Fermentation: Ale, Two Stage
ABV: 5.0% Taste Rating:

Ingredients
5 lbs Rye Malt (4.7 SRM) - 50%
3 lbs Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) - 30%
1 lbs 8.00 oz Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (2.0 SRM) - 15%
4.00 oz Caramel Wheat Malt (46.0 SRM) - 2.5%
4.00 oz Chocolate Wheat Malt (400.0 SRM) - 2.5%
8.00 oz Rice Hulls (0.0 SRM)
1.00 oz Tradition [6.0%] - Boil 60 min (17.2 IBU)
1.00 oz Styrian Goldings [2.3%] - Boil 5 min (1.3 IBU)
1 pkgs Bavarian Wheat (Wyeast Labs #3638)

Mash Schedule
Ferulic Acid Rest - 20 min @ 113° F
Saccharification - 60 min @ 152° F
Mash Out - 10 min @ 168° F

Fermentation Schedule
7 days @ 62° F, 3 days @ 70° F, 10 days @ 38° F

Any feedback is appreciated!

 

[Hopsimus]

I'm no expert (I've only done one roggenbier), but I think you are on the right track.
Low fermentation temp (you mention 62F) should keep the banana at bay. I did mine at 64F and didn't get any banana.
The ferulic acid rest should increase the clove.

I went by the recipe in Brewing Classic Styles. Your recipe is actually fairly similar.
The one in BCS used Caramunich and Carafa Special instead of Caramel Wheat and Chocolate Wheat, but otherwise pretty close.

 

[specharka]

I'm no expert (I've only done one roggenbier), but I think you are on the right track.
Low fermentation temp (you mention 62F) should keep the banana at bay. I did mine at 64F and didn't get any banana.
The ferulic acid rest should increase the clove.

I went by the recipe in Brewing Classic Styles. Your recipe is actually fairly similar.
The one in BCS used Caramunich and Carafa Special instead of Caramel Wheat and Chocolate Wheat, but otherwise pretty close.

Thanks! I really like CaraMunich and Carafa Special malts as well, so it just depends what my LHBS has in stock as I feel they’re quite interchangeable.

I might drop the late hopping addition, as I know any subtle spicy aroma will get swept aside by the rye and clove.

 

[Hopsimus]

The BJCP style recommends "light spicy, floral or herbal hops". The recipe I used called for 0.3 oz of Saaz at 15 min. It was pretty subtle.
I suspect it will be good either way - with or without the late hops.

Keep us posted on how it turns out! I've been meaning to brew another one myself.

Cheers

 

[specharka]

Wanted to provide an update. Brewed this a little over a month ago (no changes from posted recipe), collecting 5.5 gal @ 1.054 OG. After some messy blow-off, the beer fermented down to 1.019 SG. I knew that wasn’t dry enough so I pitched a small starter of WLP029 on it and it came down further to 1.012-1.013.

The good news: I made beer from a mostly rye grist without getting a stuck sparge!

The bad news: this beer is ugly as hell. Turbid, poop-brown, the yeast won’t floc out and I can’t make heads or tails of what’s in the glass. The rye aroma and flavors are coming through, but the rye lends a sourness to the beer which forcibly reminds me of Brettanomyces. There is a nice cinnamon and clove phenol component to balance the malt, but the hops are nowhere to be found.

I don’t know if I did it wrong, or (gasp) this is what Roggenbier is supposed to taste like.

EDIT: I used WLP380 instead of WY3638. I don’t know if any other Weissbier strain would have made a difference, but there’s definitely no banana here.

 

[Queequeg]

I will dig out my recipe and process notes as I have a really nice Roggenbier that works.

 

[Queequeg]

Ok, so looking back at my notes

3kg rye malt
1.5kg Munich I
1.5 Pilsner
500g caramunich II
400g acid malt
70g midnight wheat
40g Tettnang @60 mins
28g Tettnang at knockout

Ferulic acid rest at 43C, and sacc rest at 67C.

Fermented at the lower end of the temperature range with WLP380 to suppress ester production and enhance phenols,

 

[Queequeg]

Your recipe and fermentation temperature look good, imo it is probably your choice of yeast that is causing the issue. You want the most phenoic character possible, if you have fruit esters then its best that they are citrus ones and not bannana strawberry etc.

#3638 does have a tart note to it. I would recommend with using wlp380 or trying a trappist yeast noted for is phenol and spice character.

 

[Queequeg]

Here is what mine looked like. The muddieness is likely due to your process and that I did a decoction.

 

[specharka]

Your recipe and fermentation temperature look good, imo it is probably your choice of yeast that is causing the issue. You want the most phenoic character possible, if you have fruit esters then its best that they are citrus ones and not bannana strawberry etc.

#3638 does have a tart note to it. I would recommend with using wlp380 or trying a trappist yeast noted for is phenol and spice character.

It is WLP380. I have it sitting on 16 psi @ 38F and it’s still cloudy as all hell. I’ve used this strain before and didn’t have any trouble getting it to floc in a dunkelweizen. It’s gotta be the rye and the lack of kettle finings that’s throwing me off.

 

[Queequeg]

Ah, maybe you just don't like the flavor? The tartness is not something that really stood out to me when I made mine and I used 400g of acid malt.

I'm not convinced lack of kettle finings is to blame or the rye come to think about it.

What was your water profile?

Is it possible it's actually contaminated?

 

[Hayden123982]

My most recent Roggen used the imperial stefon yeast which I loved. I did find that some of my old bottles that had been laying around for awhile had a somewhat tart, grape-like flavor to them that I attribute to oxidization of the rye malt (maybe). Fresh, the beer was great

 

[specharka]

Ah, maybe you just don't like the flavor? The tartness is not something that really stood out to me when I made mine and I used 400g of acid malt.

I'm not convinced lack of kettle finings is to blame or the rye come to think about it.

What was your water profile?

Is it possible it's actually contaminated?

I’m not 100% sure, but I’ve brewed other clean beers using the same equipment since then without any perceptible flaws. I did krausen it with Kölsch yeast so maybe that might have thrown things off? Water profile was amber balanced built from RO, mash pH target of 5.40.

It’s entirely possible I just don’t like it — I’ve never made a Weissbier that I really enjoyed. They’ve never exactly been bad, but there’s always this muddy finish about them that I’m not particularly fond of. I think the next step is to make a true-to-form Hefeweizen that’s comparable to Aventinus or Schneider-Weisse.