Butane Hops Extraction

[DrJerryrigger]

That baster looks great for this application. I wouldn't recommend using a coffee filter (I just used one because it's all I had). The paper will hold some oils reducing your yield. Some metal (not nylon) window screen would be better I think. It would let some small partials pass but I don't see those impurities causing any problems with the final product.

In one extreme case they got impatient and attempted to speed the evaporation process on a propane stove. Indoors.

WOW! That's three bad ideas at once. But did the whole neighborhood get high from the explosion fumes?


From my limited experience; I see no need for any heating at all. I'm sure a warm water bath would speed things up, but it's not needed. Just leave it outside for five to ten minutes (maybe an hour if it's cold and you are making a lot). The faster is boils the bigger the fire ball would be and the larger the area which it could be ignited from. I also don't like the idea of inhaling large amounts of butane, so I'd be happier to be inside wile it boils in my yard.

 

[DrJerryrigger]

Bottlebomber, I know of a few people who have had their houses blow up over butane extractions.

A pyrex plate can then be placed in a preheated bath of water and carried OUTSIDE (140-160F is about what I shoot for with my water baths). Spraying about 1/2 of a 300ml can is enough for a full extraction (suitable brands include Colibre, Vector, and Lucienne). Make sure to hold the extraction tube with a cloth or oven mits because it will get extremely cold during the spray. Once the bulk amount of liquid has evaporated to a resiny film, then it is safe to bring inside and put your water bath on the stove for the final purge.

The bubbles are full of butane and are in fact still flammable, but it wont be in such a great concentration to cause an explosion. Keep the temperatures to about 150F throughout the purge.. which can last about 10-20 minutes depending on the yield. The bubbles can be manually raised throughout the process with a metal poker or a knife. By doing this final purge, you are removing the remaining amount of butane still contained within your tincture. If you see a yellow foam, it is just butane being removed.. stirring it multiple times with poker can release these bubbles during the final purge.

You seem to know a lot about this topic....

 

[bottlebomber]

You seem to know a lot about this topic....

Hops, that's what these kids are calling it nowadays huh?

 

[EndlessWinter77]

A suitable-cheap extraction tube is a SS turkey baster.....

Thank you much for your experienced input and words of safety. From what you have written it seems that you have had experience doing this with hops (rather than the obvious narcotic.) If so, did you utilize the extracted resin for beer production and how so? A number of posts back, someone tried the extraction but came to the conclusion that it would be difficult (and may require further solvents) in order to create a dissolvable product for use in brewing.

 

[EndlessWinter77]

Also, in regards to safety the Upper Explosive Limit of Butane is 8.44% Propane is slightly higher at 10.1%. Millions of people use propane stoves everyday yet its the Darwin candidates that blow themselves up. Its all about being smart.

 

[bottlebomber]

In warm climates butane is used the same way we use propane, because it vaporizes at warmer temps. Get much below freezing and butane wont produce gas. Put a lighter in a freezer as an experiment. It wont light.

 

[Bierenliefhebber]

I was surprised to see this thread is still chugging along. After adding a comment a couple of days ago, I happened to think of a couple of reasons why butane might not be so suitable for hop extraction, even though it works fine for, ahem, other resinous products that are to be smoked, rather than being used as flavoring agents as the hop oils would be.

First I believe that much of the LPG (liquified petroleum gas, either butane or propane) sold for heating contains an odorant, a mercaptan, that contains sulfur and smells sort of like skunk, added to facilitate leak detection. One could wind up with "skunked" beer without every having exposed it to light. Possibly the butane sold for refilling lighters might not contains such compounds.

Second, because of the way such gases are collected, usually by simple condensation at the wellhead or a refinery, I'm fairly sure that even relatively pure LPG is going to contain small amounts of longer-chain hydrocarbons, probably even traces of those as heavy as kerosene. These are not going to evaporate easily, and will likely add unwanted flavors.

 

[bottlebomber]

Possibly the butane sold for refilling lighters might not contains such compounds.

It is odorless

Second, because of the way such gases are collected, usually by simple condensation at the wellhead or a refinery, I'm fairly sure that even relatively pure LPG is going to contain small amounts of longer-chain hydrocarbons, probably even traces of those as heavy as kerosene. These are not going to evaporate easily, and will likely add unwanted flavors.

It is also flavorless, when evaporated, I promise. Especially against the heady aroma of hops

 

[DrJerryrigger]

First I believe that much of the LPG (liquified petroleum gas, either butane or propane) sold for heating contains an odorant, a mercaptan, that contains sulfur and smells sort of like skunk, added to facilitate leak detection. One could wind up with "skunked" beer without every having exposed it to light. Possibly the butane sold for refilling lighters might not contains such compounds.

Yes, the butane refill cylinders don't have the sulfur additive.

Second, because of the way such gases are collected, usually by simple condensation at the wellhead or a refinery, I'm fairly sure that even relatively pure LPG is going to contain small amounts of longer-chain hydrocarbons, probably even traces of those as heavy as kerosene. These are not going to evaporate easily, and will likely add unwanted flavors.

This is a concern, though in my minimal experimenting all hydrocarbon odors/flavors seemed to dissipate quickly. If you were to make a large amount of this stuff it would be more difficult to remove. Heating (in a warm water bath) after it stops boiling and stirring the extract would likely help a lot, but still something to think about.

 

[rayg]

Calling someone dumb, and then saying anything after that is silly. Because, after the namecalling, it doesn't really matter what you say, it will (and should) be ignored. ?

I'm going to call it the way I see it, and I've been around organic
chemistry labs long enough to know.

Ray

 

[dwarven_stout]

I'm going to call it the way I see it, and I've been around organic chemistry labs long enough to know.

Ray

Ah, the argument from authority. I love it.

Still, it doesn't change the fact that you obviously didn't read much of the thread at all, stopping by only to throw in a lengthy quote, an insult, and a bizarre reference to standing in a freezer.

 

[DrJerryrigger]

Ah, the argument from authority. I love it.

Still, it doesn't change the fact that you obviously didn't read much of the thread at all, stopping by only to throw in a lengthy quote, an insult, and a bizarre reference to standing in a freezer.

you need to lean how to ignore trolls. Let's stay on topic.

 

[rayg]

Ah, the argument from authority. I love it.

Still, it doesn't change the fact that you obviously didn't read much of the thread at all, stopping by only to throw in a lengthy quote, an insult, and a bizarre reference to standing in a freezer.

A reference to a peer-reviewed scientific paper is a troll?
Your post seems to be more of a troll, to be honest.

Ray

 

[DrJerryrigger]

Okay, time to plan an experiment.
I have about 6 gal of brown ale in secondary now. I was thinking (in a day or two) I'd sanitize a 1 gal carboy and spray butane hop solution into the carboy. Then put on the air lock to maintain sanitation. After it has boiled off I'd heat to 120F in tap water, then transfer beer into it.
How much butane for a given amount of hops? I don't know, I guess I'll just wing it.

Any thoughts of how this experiment could be improved (with out buying anything expensive).

 

[bottlebomber]

Okay, time to plan an experiment.
I have about 6 gal of brown ale in secondary now. I was thinking (in a day or two) I'd sanitize a 1 gal carboy and spray butane hop solution into the carboy. Then put on the air lock to maintain sanitation. After it has boiled off I'd heat to 120F in tap water, then transfer beer into it.
How much butane for a given amount of hops? I don't know, I guess I'll just wing it.

Any thoughts of how this experiment could be improved (with out buying anything expensive).

Don't do that. When the butane evaporates off it is going to leave a thick tar in the bottom of your carboy that will not emulsify with your beer. Think the hop oil ring at the top of your fermenter x1000.

Plus you will doubtless be starting a "my beer tastes like Satans anus" thread.

 

[DrJerryrigger]

Don't do that. When the butane evaporates off it is going to leave a thick tar in the bottom of your carboy that will not emulsify with your beer. Think the hop oil ring at the top of your fermenter x1000.

Plus you will doubtless be starting a "my beer tastes like Satans anus" thread.

Yeah, maybe I should try it in a smaller bottle.

 

[bottlebomber]

That sounds like a way safer experience

 

[MadScienceTeacher]

Sorry if I just rewrote something that was already said but I didn't read all 6 pages.

As an organic chemist by trade I can't help toss in my two cents to this crazy conversation. If I were to be going about this on any sort of scale I would probably go with a steam distillation of the solids directly which would give you a mixture of water and all of the oils that you would expect to get out of the hops by boiling them in water. You could probably drain off some of the water from below the oils to have a higher oil concentration extract. Then, to make some sort of use of the oil I would dissolve it up in very small amount of ethanol (they do still sell everclear at 95% ethanol) to allow you to put it into the beer and still emulsify. The addition of the hop extract I would do after fermentation because the higher alcohol content would assist in the extract mixing into the beer. Just a thought.

 

[bottlebomber]

Sorry if I just rewrote something that was already said but I didn't read all 6 pages.

As an organic chemist by trade I can't help toss in my two cents to this crazy conversation. If I were to be going about this on any sort of scale I would probably go with a steam distillation of the solids directly which would give you a mixture of water and all of the oils that you would expect to get out of the hops by boiling them in water. You could probably drain off some of the water from below the oils to have a higher oil concentration extract. Then, to make some sort of use of the oil I would dissolve it up in very small amount of ethanol (they do still sell everclear at 95% ethanol) to allow you to put it into the beer and still emulsify. The addition of the hop extract I would do after fermentation because the higher alcohol content would assist in the extract mixing into the beer. Just a thought.

The only con to this method, as I see it, is that your method involves heating the hops. I feel that heating them would start an oxidation process that cold extraction with butane wouldn't.

 

[DrJerryrigger]

The only con to this method, as I see it, is that your method involves heating the hops. I feel that heating them would start an oxidation process that cold extraction with butane wouldn't.

There would be very little O2 in such a system and if you have an CO2 tank on hand you could reduce it further. The only con I see is the need for equipment.

 

[dwarven_stout]

The only con to this method, as I see it, is that your method involves heating the hops. I feel that heating them would start an oxidation process that cold extraction with butane wouldn't.

Forget oxidation.

Heating hops in water = isomerization = loss of aroma.

 

[bottlebomber]

Forget oxidation.

Heating hops in water = isomerization = loss of aroma.

I think that was the concept I was after, but had my terminology wrong. Best if the hops are kept cold during the process. There's another possible extraction method. If you ground up the hops, and you knew what micron size the resin glands were, you could put a series of graduated-micron bags in an ice water bath, in a 5 gallon bucket let's say, and put the hops in the water and go at it with a paint mixer. The larger particles would get trapped in the coarser micron bag, and the resin glands would sift through but then get caught in the finer micron bag. Because its icy the resin nodules stay hard. Then you dry them out and use them. I think I've heard of people doing this

 

[dwarven_stout]

I think that was the concept I was after, but had my terminology wrong. Best if the hops are kept cold during the process. There's another possible extraction method. If you ground up the hops, and you knew what micron size the resin glands were, you could put a series of graduated-micron bags in an ice water bath, in a 5 gallon bucket let's say, and put the hops in the water and go at it with a paint mixer. The larger particles would get trapped in the coarser micron bag, and the resin glands would sift through but then get caught in the finer micron bag. Because its icy the resin nodules stay hard. Then you dry them out and use them. I think I've heard of people doing this

That sounds rather similar to how you make hashish.

Just sayin'.

 

[bottlebomber]

That sounds rather similar to how you make hashish.

Just sayin'.

I wouldn't know personally, but I think the two plants have at least some similarities

 

[DrJerryrigger]

Forget oxidation.

Heating hops in water = isomerization = loss of aroma.

Do you know how much isomerization is really a problem? The major loss of aroma we're used to in brewing is from boiling off the aroma, which could be condensed.

I think that was the concept I was after, but had my terminology wrong. Best if the hops are kept cold during the process. There's another possible extraction method. If you ground up the hops, and you knew what micron size the resin glands were, you could put a series of graduated-micron bags in an ice water bath, in a 5 gallon bucket let's say, and put the hops in the water and go at it with a paint mixer. The larger particles would get trapped in the coarser micron bag, and the resin glands would sift through but then get caught in the finer micron bag. Because its icy the resin nodules stay hard. Then you dry them out and use them. I think I've heard of people doing this

So hop honey hash isn't good enough for you, you need to try hop bubble hast! (I only learned about it when looking up info for the butane extraction experiment) I would have to do some research, and maybe just break out the microscope, to figure out if the AA glands are a think that could just fall off and fit through a screen of a particular size. Also the ice water trick has a lot to do with how THC glands work, I don't know if it would translate.
But then again I didn't really think the butane extraction would work at all.

 

[bottlebomber]

Do you know how much isomerization is really a problem? The major loss of aroma we're used to in brewing is from boiling off the aroma, which could be condensed.

So hop honey hash isn't good enough for you, you need to try hop bubble hast! (I only learned about it when looking up info for the butane extraction experiment) I would have to do some research, and maybe just break out the microscope, to figure out if the AA glands are a think that could just fall off and fit through a screen of a particular size. Also the ice water trick has a lot to do with how THC glands work, I don't know if it would translate.
But then again I didn't really think the butane extraction would work at all.

It would definitely translate. Have you ever had a nice one pound bag of leaf hops, and seen the yellow "keef" in the bottom of the bag? I bet they're the same size on a microscopic level as well, or very close.

 

[SethNice]

I do regular butane extracts and this has sprung my curiosity as well. I personally find my extracts packed with flavor, and with the same aroma as the starting material. Freshness means everything

 

[lupinator]

I just made some hop extract last night with my Closed Loop Butane Extractor(which recovers the butane for reuse at the end), and it came out absolutely amazing. The butane process does a way better job of preserving the aromatics than C02 because it stays at low temperatures and pressures. The resulting extract smells exactly like the cascade hops I started with but extremely concentrated. I have been passing it out to get feedback and I cant wait to try it in my next batch. Everyone who has seen and smelled it has been blown away. Its gonna be a revolution!

 

[lupinator]

I ran a pound of Cascade last night through a closed loop butane extractor and it was absolutely phenomenal. Contact me if you want to try some or if you want to get your own closed loop extractor

[email protected]

 

[passedpawn]

Anyone try a Magical Butter on hops yet? Apparently it works well with other similar stuff.

http://magicalbutter.com/

 

[SethNice]

I dry hopped with some citra butane exrtract recently. It is an oil so it takes a long time to get into solution in your beer, especially cold. I poured a couple off that had a some serious resiny bite that would peel the skin off your tongue. I'm thinking about diluting the oil with some ethanol before dry hopping next time to aid in blending better/faster.

 

[everythingextractions]

Has anyone ever tried a butane hops extraction? I know that there is a fairly simple, cheap, yet dangerous process that people use for extracting hash oils from cannabis (not that I would ever do that...) I also just learned that hops and cannabis are very closely related plants.

From putting two and two together, and doing a little research, theoretically the extraction process would work for hops, but im wondering if anyone has actually tried it and used it in a brew with desirable results?

I have a new organic and non toxic solvent to use instead of using butane to get an extraction. It extracts more and is 1/8 the volatility as well as it will actually taste like your hops. Butane is a poisonous solvent and should be avoided. Our gas can be used in an open loop or a closed loop system. Everythingextractions.com
hit me up for more info!

 

[lolznrofls]

Are we talking about hopps or hashish?

 

[aeviaanah]

Both


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[dwarven_stout]

I have a new organic and non toxic solvent

A new organic solvent, eh? Will wonders never cease?

 

[aurum]

I just had a thought that I did not see here. Has anyone considered using a pressure vessel with a colander full of cones and dumping a handful of dry ice on top then sealing it up. I am not sure the viability, but you are basically pressurizing hops with incredibly cold CO2. I do not know if the CO2 would convert back into a liquid at this pressure and temperature though. Unfortunately finding a pressure vessel is the difficulty, originally I was thinking of using a pressure cooker as the vessel however they usually top out at 15 psi which is not sufficient for our purposes.

EDIT: Sorry for reviving a long dead thread

 

[KLITE]

Theres far too much bad info on this thread.

Hop butane oil can indeed be made, but theres a reason theyre doing it with co2 hehe.
Butane is an excellent gas at picking up molecules c10 through c30 and not so great for molecules much bigger than that, mainly picks up the c10s through 20s. Basically all the nice stuff, hydrocarbons, flavonoids etc. However it also picks up undesirables such as plant waxes and lipids, and hops is extremely high in waxes especially.
When concentrating the oils present in plant material, your not only concentrating the desirables, but also some undesirables. If your system isnt top notch you can end up with a mess.
Moreover the volume of hops you need to get 1 or 2ml of essential oils is like around 100g, in comparisson to the 10i%ish of acids. You need a fairly big system to try and get anything useful out of it. Bear in mind a decent system for closed loop extraction can easily run you 5/6g. Not to mention you need a vaccuum oven and decent pump to purge the end product of the solvent.

Co2 is an absolute CRAP! solvent for botanical extractions, period. At least if you want to keep the plant waxes away without the need of a polar solvent dewaxing, and obviously subsequent heat purge. It will pick up hydrocarbons but at a smaller rater than its abaility to extract the alpha and beta acids from the hops. The only reason it kind of works ok is because at supercritical conditions its much harder for certain undesirables to make it into the concentrate.

My advice is find where hops are grown, by them fresh, take em home put em in a room at max 16C and 60% humidity and let them dry as slowly as humanely possible. Once done buy a boveda humidity pack for cigars and those nasa thermosealable bags, shove em in and put em n the fridge at 8C. It will smell better and stronger than the day you picked them up.

 

[passedpawn]

Theres far too much bad info on this thread.

Hop butane oil can indeed be made, but theres a reason theyre doing it with co2 hehe.
Butane is an excellent gas at picking up molecules c10 through c30 and not so great for molecules much bigger than that, mainly picks up the c10s through 20s. Basically all the nice stuff, hydrocarbons, flavonoids etc. However it also picks up undesirables such as plant waxes and lipids, and hops is extremely high in waxes especially.
When concentrating the oils present in plant material, your not only concentrating the desirables, but also some undesirables. If your system isnt top notch you can end up with a mess.
Moreover the volume of hops you need to get 1 or 2ml of essential oils is like around 100g, in comparisson to the 10i%ish of acids. You need a fairly big system to try and get anything useful out of it. Bear in mind a decent system for closed loop extraction can easily run you 5/6g. Not to mention you need a vaccuum oven and decent pump to purge the end product of the solvent.

Co2 is an absolute CRAP! solvent for botanical extractions, period. At least if you want to keep the plant waxes away without the need of a polar solvent dewaxing, and obviously subsequent heat purge. It will pick up hydrocarbons but at a smaller rater than its abaility to extract the alpha and beta acids from the hops. The only reason it kind of works ok is because at supercritical conditions its much harder for certain undesirables to make it into the concentrate.

My advice is find where hops are grown, by them fresh, take em home put em in a room at max 16C and 60% humidity and let them dry as slowly as humanely possible. Once done buy a boveda humidity pack for cigars and those nasa thermosealable bags, shove em in and put em n the fridge at 8C. It will smell better and stronger than the day you picked them up.

Well, since this thread is long dead, maybe I'll take a tangent. What do you think about steam distillation of hop oils?

 

[KLITE]

Well, since this thread is long dead, maybe I'll take a tangent. What do you think about steam distillation of hop oils?

I think its a great process if you have access to a say hl distiller minimum. I honestly doubt one would get much more than 10 or 15ml from 1 kg of really terpy hops, and 1 kg of hops ground suck up A LOT of water and you need for the plant material to literally be in abundant water.
However this is a more effective way of extracting the volatile aromatic compounds and leaving the alpha and beta acids behind than a hydrocarbon solvent extraction.

 

[passedpawn]

I think its a great process if you have access to a say hl distiller minimum. I honestly doubt one would get much more than 10 or 15ml from 1 kg of really terpy hops, and 1 kg of hops ground suck up A LOT of water and you need for the plant material to literally be in abundant water.
However this is a more effective way of extracting the volatile aromatic compounds and leaving the alpha and beta acids behind than a hydrocarbon solvent extraction.

I've got lots of questions for you! If you don't mind, would you take a look at this other thread here, and in particular my questions in Post #17:

Steam Distillation of Hops