Building water from RO with EZ water. Ummm?

[ejf063]

So I was informed by the home office that the kitchen is open for a brew day on Friday. So, I have been reading up on chemistry and I have been working with EZ Water and want to build my own water for a hoppy IPA. As others, I am having a hard time getting that hop flavor/aroma I am in search of. So, here is the raw data from the software:



Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 0
Mg: 0
Na: 0
Cl: 0
SO4: 0
HCO3: 0

Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 5.7 / 4.5
RO or distilled %: 100% / 100%

Total Grain (lb): 17.3

Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaSO4: 6 / 0
CaCl2: 3.5 / 0
MgSO4: 9 / 0
NaHCO3: 0 / 0
CaCO3: 3 / 0
Lactic Acid (ml): 0
Sauermalz (oz): 0

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 163 / 91
Mg: 39 / 22
Na: 0 / 0
Cl: 78 / 44
SO4: 318 / 178
Cl to SO4 Ratio: 0.25 / 0.25

Alkalinity (CaCO3): 68
RA: -71
Estimated pH: 5.52
(room temp)


Grain Bill is:

14# Pilsner
1# toasted Golden Promise
1.5# Chrystal 10L
10oz Munich

hop profile is TBA depending on what the LHBS has to offer but it will be at least 8 oz of something like centennial, citra, Amarillo.... etc... same with the yeast.

If I am reading this correctly, I am supposed to add 6 grams of gypsum per gallon of mash water? All to the mash (since I did not adjust for sparge water)? seems like a whole lot... like 30 grams. Seems like a lot of additions across the board, actually.

Any help or adjustment recommended would be greatly appreciated. My SRM is under 7....

 

[ajdelange]

As others, I am having a hard time getting that hop flavor/aroma I am in search of. So, here is the raw data from the software:

Apparently this is your first shot at this. You would be better off just adding a half tsp of gypsum and a half tsp of calcium chloride to each 5 gal of water treated (treat the whole volume, i.e. mash and sparge water the same). Hop flavor and aroma are determined by the hops cultivars you use and the amount and timing of the charges. Water has a secondary effect through the action of sulfate on the perception of hops bitterness. Most people describe the effects as roughening, drying or rendering it harsh. Explore this by adding increments of gypsum to a moderately hoppy beer and tasting.

Starting Water (ppm):


RO or distilled %: 100% / 100%

Total Grain (lb): 17.3

Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaSO4: 6 / 0
CaCl2: 3.5 / 0
MgSO4: 9 / 0
NaHCO3: 0 / 0
CaCO3: 3 / 0
Lactic Acid (ml): 0
Sauermalz (oz): 0

Never add alkali to brewing water unless you are sure you need it. In this case you don't. And if you do need it don't use calcium carbonate. With the grain bill you list and depending on the properties of the Toasted Golden Promise (I don't know anything about this) the mash pH will be around 5.45 without any alkali. If the carbonate addition you contemplate worked that would rise to about 5.6. As carbonate delivers about half what the stoichiometry predicts (the rest comes later which is one of the reasons you don't want to use it) you might expect a mash pH of around 5.52 or so. If that's what you want use 2.4 grams of sodium bicarbonate instead.

You can treat the mash water and sparge water differently (i.e. don't treat the sparge RO water at all) if you want to but it is generally easier in terms of bookkeeping to treat all the water the same.

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
SO4: 318 / 178
Cl to SO4 Ratio: 0.25 / 0.25
Alkalinity (CaCO3): 68
RA: -71
Estimated pH: 5.52
(room temp)

Cl/SO4 doesn't matter and if you add 6 grams of CaSO4 to 5.7 gal water you will get about 155 g/L sulfate, not 318 so something is wrong there.

If I replace the chalk you used with the amount of sodium bicarbonate required for an estimated mash pH of 5.53 alkalinity comes out at 44.5. RA doesn't matter as long as mash pH is where you want it.

14# Pilsner
1# toasted Golden Promise
1.5# Chrystal 10L
10oz Munich

hop profile is TBA depending on what the LHBS has to offer but it will be at least 8 oz of something like centennial, citra, Amarillo.... etc... same with the yeast.

This is what will determine you hops flavors, aromas etc.

If I am reading this correctly, I am supposed to add 6 grams of gypsum per gallon of mash water? All to the mash (since I did not adjust for sparge water)? seems like a whole lot... like 30 grams. Seems like a lot of additions across the board, actually.

As I understand these spreadsheets the salt additions are for the specified volume. Here the spreadsheet indicates that you wish to add 6 grams of gypsum to 5.7 gal of water (if I am reading it right) and yet it also indicates twice the sulfate level that this addition would produce. Six grams/5.7 gal is, to my taste, a lot but many want this much and more. Even the most ardent sulfate fans would pause at 12 grams/5.7 gal (about 310 mg/L but I do know one exception). I note with interest in this regard that the EPA SMCL for sulfate is half this level. Thirty grams/gal is insane.

Any help or adjustment recommended would be gream.

Well, there it is. You'll have to tell me whether it is gream or not.

My SRM is 7

SRM really doesn't have much, if anything, to do with water chemistry.

Have a look at https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/brewing-water-chemistry-primer-198460/

 

[ejf063]

Thanks for the quick reply. Just a little more clarity, if you don't mind?

You said, "Never add alkali to brewing water unless you are sure you need it. In this case you don't. And if you do need it don't use calcium carbonate. With the grain bill you list and depending on the properties of the Toasted Golden Promise (I don't know anything about this) the mash pH will be around 5.45 without any alkali. If the carbonate addition you contemplate worked that would rise to about 5.6. As carbonate delivers about half what the stoichiometry predicts (the rest comes later which is one of the reasons you don't want to use it) you might expect a mash pH of around 5.52 or so. If that's what you want use 2.4 grams of sodium bicarbonate instead."

So just don't add the chalk (CaCO3) at all? If my mash ph without it is 5.45, then I definitely don't want it. And I wont add the sodium bicarbonate, either. I feel the mash ph at 5.45 is right where I want it. But wont that raise my alkalinity?

Also, Quote:
Originally Posted by ejf063 View Post
Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
SO4: 318 / 178
Cl to SO4 Ratio: 0.25 / 0.25
Alkalinity (CaCO3): 68
RA: -71
Estimated pH: 5.52
(room temp)

Cl/SO4 doesn't matter and if you add 6 grams of CaSO4 to 5.7 gal water you will get about 155 g/L sulfate, not 318 so something is wrong there."

I believe that there are two columns in my ez water profile. The first column is for the ppm of the mash (318) while the second is the ppm of the total volume (178ppm in roughly 9 gals). Could that be the error? I don't know what else you could've meant when you said something was wrong....

By adding sodium bicarbonate, that reduces my alkalinity to 44.5. so... I can scrap the chalk altogether and get some sodium bicarbonate in its place? or if I left the chalk in, my alkaline is 68. if I replace the chalk with the sodium bicarbonate, does 20 points of alkalinity matter? I really have no idea.

You said, "As I understand these spreadsheets the salt additions are for the specified volume. Here the spreadsheet indicates that you wish to add 6 grams of gypsum to 5.7 gal of water (if I am reading it right) and yet it also indicates twice the sulfate level that this addition would produce. Six grams/5.7 gal is, to my taste, a lot but many want this much and more. Even the most ardent sulfate fans would pause at 12 grams/5.7 gal (about 310 mg/L but I do know one exception). I note with interest in this regard that the EPA SMCL for sulfate is half this level. Thirty grams/gal is insane."

If I am using about 1 gram of gypsum to one gallon of mash water, or about .65 grams of gypsum per gallon of total water (9 gallons), I think that puts me right at 175ppm.

The 30 grams of gypsum statement was a guess because I couldn't find anything in the spread sheet that indicated the grams you are using would be for the full batch, not just grams per gallon. My conclusion is that, according to my numbers if I changed nothing, I would use 6g of gypsum in total... not per gallon. Same with the rest of the additions. I am just making sure. Something tells me that 30 grams of sulfate would make my house smell.

And.... yes, your responses (and hopefully continued responses) are in fact "gream". whatever the hell that means.

 

[ajdelange]

Thanks for the quick reply. Just a little more clarity, if you don't mind?

You said, "Never add alkali to brewing water unless you are sure you need it. In this case you don't. And if you do need it don't use calcium carbonate. With the grain bill you list and depending on the properties of the Toasted Golden Promise (I don't know anything about this) the mash pH will be around 5.45 without any alkali. If the carbonate addition you contemplate worked that would rise to about 5.6. As carbonate delivers about half what the stoichiometry predicts (the rest comes later which is one of the reasons you don't want to use it) you might expect a mash pH of around 5.52 or so. If that's what you want use 2.4 grams of sodium bicarbonate instead."

So just don't add the chalk (CaCO3) at all? If my mash ph without it is 5.45, then I definitely don't want it. And I wont add the sodium bicarbonate, either. I feel the mash ph at 5.45 is right where I want it. But wont that raise my alkalinity?

For your convenience in the future if you press the "QUOTE" button at the bottom of a post the entire post will appear in a window with a "{QUOTE=ajdelange;6786490]Apparently this...." at the beginning and a close quote, "{/QUOTE]" at the end (I used { instead of [ so the parser won't interpret these as actual quotes in this post). By copying and pasting you can reproduce (quote) any portion of the referenced post you like.

On to the question: No, chalk adds alkalinity. Eliminating chalk reduces alkalinity.

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
SO4: 318 / 178
Cl to SO4 Ratio: 0.25 / 0.25
Alkalinity (CaCO3): 68
RA: -71
Estimated pH: 5.52
(room temp)

Cl/SO4 doesn't matter and if you add 6 grams of CaSO4 to 5.7 gal water you will get about 155 g/L sulfate, not 318 so something is wrong there."

I believe that there are two columns in my ez water profile. The first column is for the ppm of the mash (318) while the second is the ppm of the total volume (178ppm in roughly 9 gals). Could that be the error? I don't know what else you could've meant when you said something was wrong....

That's how I interpret it. I believe you said you were adding 6 grams of gypsum to 5.7 gallons of mash water. That would not give you 328 mg/L sulfate.

By adding sodium bicarbonate, that reduces my alkalinity to 44.5. so... I can scrap the chalk altogether and get some sodium bicarbonate in its place? or if I left the chalk in, my alkaline is 68. if I replace the chalk with the sodium bicarbonate, does 20 points of alkalinity matter? I really have no idea.

In reality the chalk does not give the advertised alkalinity. Sodium bicarbonate does. Your spreadsheet is not, apparaently, calculating the alkalinity of chalk correctly (many don't). I am merely pointing out that if you use bicarbonate instead of carbonate to get to the same estimated mash pH the alkalinity will be around 44. It is really immaterial, as is the RA, as long as you get the target mash pH.

You said, "As I understand these spreadsheets the salt additions are for the specified volume. Here the spreadsheet indicates that you wish to add 6 grams of gypsum to 5.7 gal of water (if I am reading it right) and yet it also indicates twice the sulfate level that this addition would produce. Six grams/5.7 gal is, to my taste, a lot but many want this much and more. Even the most ardent sulfate fans would pause at 12 grams/5.7 gal (about 310 mg/L but I do know one exception). I note with interest in this regard that the EPA SMCL for sulfate is half this level. Thirty grams/gal is insane."

If I am using about 1 gram of gypsum to one gallon of mash water, or about .65 grams of gypsum per gallon of total water (9 gallons), I think that puts me right at 175ppm.

Yes.

The 30 grams of gypsum statement was a guess because I couldn't find anything in the spread sheet that indicated the grams you are using would be for the full batch, not just grams per gallon. My conclusion is that, according to my numbers if I changed nothing, I would use 6g of gypsum in total... not per gallon. Same with the rest of the additions. I am just making sure. Something tells me that 30 grams of sulfate would make my house smell.

Yes, correct conclusion. Sulfate doesn't smell. Sulfide smells (rotten eggs) and sulfilte smells (burnt match). We don't use the former in brewing but we do use the latter to remove chloramine from city water.

And.... yes, your responses (and hopefully continued responses) are in fact "gream". whatever the hell that means.

Figured it was some modern term I didn't know.

 

[ejf063]

First of ajdelange, I wanted to thank you for reading this and posting your thoughts on my inquiry. I truly appreciate your advice and insight. This is a new level of this hobby I am trying to learn and your help is greatly appreciated.

For your convenience in the future if you press the "QUOTE" button at the bottom of a post the entire post will appear in a window with a "{QUOTE=ajdelange;6786490]Apparently this...." at the beginning and a close quote, "{/QUOTE]" at the end (I used { instead of [ so the parser won't interpret these as actual quotes in this post). By copying and pasting you can reproduce (quote) any portion of the referenced post you like.

On to the question: No, chalk adds alkalinity. Eliminating chalk reduces alkalinity.

So with this profile, I can eliminate chalk and baking soda altogether. seems like my alkalinity is spot on without either.

That's how I interpret it. I believe you said you were adding 6 grams of gypsum to 5.7 gallons of mash water. That would not give you 328 mg/L sulfate.

But if I dilute my mash with 100% RO, by way of the sparge, would that not bring my ppm to 178? That would be a suitable number for the IPA I would like to make. I would rather my sulfate level be closer to 200ppm than 300ppm. By treating the mash, that drives up the number, but dilution would drive it down, if I am reading this right.

Seems like what you suggested in your original response is that the two most important additives would be they gypsum and calcium chloride. I would need to adjust those numbers to hit the desired ratio for an IPA (so4/cl roughly 3:1 to 4:1) with the higher concentration of each adding each ion's properties. If my sulfate is closer to 300 and my chloride is like 75 (4:1) the flavor profile and bitterness, etc will be accentuated compared to say 100 ppm to 25.

as long as my additives keep my ph within the desired range (according to my grist) then everything should be ok if I hit my IPA ratio. once the ph starts to fall or go above the desired ph then additional additives like the bicarbonate or epsom slats should be thrown in.

However, looking at water recipes from across the web, in books and any other source of information, so of the other additives, (Epsom slat) enhance flavor as well, right?

I have been to the LHBS and have my final recipe grist which was slightly different than original:

Fermentables

Total grain: 18.500 lb

2 Row Brewers Malt 15.000 lb 1.8 srm
Caramel/Crystal Malt - 10L 1.750 lb 10.0 srm
Toasted Malt Grain 1.000 lb 27.0 srm
Vienna Malt Grain 8.000 oz 4.0 srm
Munich Malt Grain 4.000 oz 5.0 srm

Hops

Name
Columbus 15.5% 1.000 oz Boil 60.000 min Pellet
Amarillo 8.8% 3.000 oz Aroma 0.000 s Pellet 0.0
Citra 12.0% 3.000 oz Aroma 0.000 s Pellet 0.0
Columbus 15.5% 2.000 oz Aroma 0.000 s Pellet 0.0
Yeast

Name Type Form Amount Stage
WLP005 - British Ale Yeast Ale Liquid 2.367 tbsp Primary
Mash

Name Type Amount Temp Target Temp Time
mash in Infusion 6.151 gal 166.397 F 154.000 F 60.000 min
Final Batch Sparge Infusion 4.254 gal 188.879 F 165.200 F 15.000 mi

by simply adding maybe 1 g of gypsum and roughly .3g of calc chloride per gallon to the mash only, I should be within my target ratio and desired ph level. Keep it simple, right? If I wanted, there are additional additives I could throw in, but why complicate things? Is there any reason why, after reading this recipe and additions, you would add any other ion to the RO water? why or why not?


New water profile using Bru n Water

Mash Parameters
Batch Volume (gal) 7.50 Hardness (ppm as CaCO3) 219 RA (ppm as CaCO3) -49
Estimated Mash pH 5.5 Alkalinity (ppm as CaCO3) 13 SO4/Cl Ratio 3.05

Additions Total Mash Water Vol (gal) 6.00 Total Sparge Water Vol (gal) 4.50
Mash Dilution Vol (gal) 6.00 Sparge Dilution Vol (gal) 4.50
Mash Water Additions Sparge Water Additions
Mineral (grams) (grams)
Gypsum (CaSO4) 6.0 0.0
Epsom Salt (MgSO4) 0.0 0.0
Canning Salt (NaCl) 0.0 0.0
Baking Soda (NaHCO3) 0.0 Not Recommended
Calcium Chloride (CaCl2) 2.1 0.0
Chalk (CaCO3) 0.0 Not Recommended
Pickling Lime (Ca(OH)2) 0.0 Not Recommended
Magnesium Chloride (MgCl2) 0.0 0.0
Acid (mL) (mL)
Lactic 88.00 % 0.0 0.0

Again, my additives are to the mash only, and after the rest, I will be rinsing with 100% RO. Do these numbers look any better? am I learning?



Thanks again, and yes I am new to the whole water building thing. how could you tell?

 

[ajdelange]

Do these numbers look any better? am I learning?

Seems so. I'll just observe that after all this you are settling in at about half a tsp of calcium chloride and about a tsp of gypsum per 5 gal. treated. That is well within the recommendations of the Primer. Personally I would use half a tsp of each but most people seem to like lots of salts and that why the Primer says 1 tsp of each. Not that the Primer is a guide to perfect beer but it is as good as anything you are likely to come up with as a beginner chasing profiles. The key ideas for a beginner are to get the other parts of the brewing process under control and then worry about the nuances of the water. You will have to experiment with levels of chloride and sulfate. Please put the idea that the ratio solely determines the effects of these two anions out of your head: there are two degrees of freedom here.

 

[ejf063]

Please put the idea that the ratio solely determines the effects of these two anions out of your head: there are two degrees of freedom here.

Thanks so much, ultimately the first piece of advice is what I have settled on. I think I was focused more on the ratio than the overall effect both salts would have.
Thanks again, ajdelange!