Bru'n Water With LoDo's NaMeta Question

[thekraken]

I'm going to attempt to employ some LoDo techniques on a no-sparge BIAB Two Hearted IPA clone this weekend. This is my second real attempt at using Bru'n Water (first attempt of NaMeta) so feedback would be appreciated.

I figured I'd shoot for Bru'n Water's pale ale profile but I'm always open to suggestions.

1. I entered the grain bill in Bru'n Water and converted SRM to lovibond using this brewtoad calculator. Is this the right approach?

2. I used the Low-O2-Quick-Reference spreadsheet to come up with my addition of NaMeta at a rate of 30 mg/l. This adds 22.5 ppm SO4 and 7.2 ppm Na. I figure I now just deduct these two figures from my Bru'n Water profile target, right?

The screenshots:
everything look about right?

 

[MaltMaker]

Looks ok/close enough to me.

If you want to get the calcium to 140, which isn't necessary, it would be similar to:

Gypsum: 1.73
Epsom Salt: .22
Magnesium Chloride: .38
Sodium Chloride: .10
Pickling Lime: .23
Lactic Acid (88%): .45

Without the calcium matching:

Gypsum: 1.73
Epsom Salt: .22
Magnesium Chloride: .38
Sodium Chloride: .10
Lactic Acid (88%): .08

Of course all of this depends on which salts you have and personal preference.

 

[mabrungard]

Yes, adding the SMB contributions of Na and SO4 to the resulting Bru'n Water mashing water concentrations is appropriate.

One word of caution, the sulfate concentration calculated in the LoDo sheet is incorrect. 100 ppm of SMB does not result in 76 ppm sulfate. It actually results in 101 ppm sulfate. The authors correctly calculated that 100 ppm SMB produces 24 ppm sodium, but then they apparently assumed that the sulfate contribution was (100 - 24 = 76 ppm). Unfortunately, that isn't how chemistry works. So, increase your LoDo calculated sulfate by 33% to 30 ppm.

 

[techbrau]

Yes, adding the SMB contributions of Na and SO4 to the resulting Bru'n Water mashing water concentrations is appropriate.

One word of caution, the sulfate concentration calculated in the LoDo sheet is incorrect. 100 ppm of SMB does not result in 76 ppm sulfate. It actually results in 101 ppm sulfate. The authors correctly calculated that 100 ppm SMB produces 24 ppm sodium, but then they apparently assumed that the sulfate contribution was (100 - 24 = 76 ppm). Unfortunately, that isn't how chemistry works. So, increase your LoDo calculated sulfate by 33% to 30 ppm.

Hi Martin,

That's not actually what we said. Here's what we wrote in the PDF verbatim:

A 100 mg/l dose of SMB will add 24 ppm sodium to your
water, and 76 ppm of sulfur compounds (sulfur dioxide, sulfite, and bisulfite).
The amount of sulfate formed will depend upon how much oxygen is introduced
into your system and subsequently scavenged by the sulfites

That is, unless you were referring to the LoDO brewing spreadsheet (which I had nothing to do with, and I don't use)

 

[thekraken]

Yes, adding the SMB contributions of Na and SO4 to the resulting Bru'n Water mashing water concentrations is appropriate.

One word of caution, the sulfate concentration calculated in the LoDo sheet is incorrect. 100 ppm of SMB does not result in 76 ppm sulfate. It actually results in 101 ppm sulfate. The authors correctly calculated that 100 ppm SMB produces 24 ppm sodium, but then they apparently assumed that the sulfate contribution was (100 - 24 = 76 ppm). Unfortunately, that isn't how chemistry works. So, increase your LoDo calculated sulfate by 33% to 30 ppm.

Understood, thank you. Making that calculation puts me at 304 ppm of target 300 ppm sulfates so I assume there is no need to adjust my salt additions as they are currently proposed?

 

[mabrungard]

Hi Martin,

That's not actually what we said. Here's what we wrote in the PDF verbatim:



That is, unless you were referring to the LoDO brewing spreadsheet (which I had nothing to do with, and I don't use)

No problem, excepting that the typical person would assume that its sulfate concentration that was presented and that is what is quoted in the LoDo spreadsheet. So it was important to clarify that. The inclusion of oxygen and water in the reaction is what raises the mass of sulfur compounds to their sulfate equivalent in the overall stoichiometry.

So to reiterate: 100 ppm SMB produces 101 ppm sulfate and 24 ppm sodium in the resulting oxidation reaction.

 

[thekraken]

I want to clarify here that the spreadsheet I screenshot above is the "Quick Reference" sheet I downloaded off of the lodo website, it's not THE lodo spreadsheet. You have to join the lodo forum to download that one, which I've done but hadn't gotten around to playing with yet, I was a little overwhelmed at first glance... Especially since I've just recently got comfortable with brun water.

I'm not sure that that one is official either, as in written by the lodo authors. It could be a community contribution for all I know.

 

[Big Monk]

I want to clarify here that the spreadsheet I screenshot above is the "Quick Reference" sheet I downloaded off of the lodo website, it's not THE lodo spreadsheet. You have to join the lodo forum to download that one, which I've done but hadn't gotten around to playing with yet, I was a little overwhelmed at first glance... Especially since I've just recently got comfortable with brun water.

I'm not sure that that one is official either, as in written by the lodo authors. It could be a community contribution for all I know.

76 ppm of Sulfate as an assumed value has worked out for us, chemistry innacuracies aside.

YMMV.

 

[MaltMaker]

Any kind and generous souls out there who would care to list the stoichiometry of Sodium Metabisulfite + Mash Water ->?

 

[Big Monk]

Hi Martin,

That's not actually what we said. Here's what we wrote in the PDF verbatim:



That is, unless you were referring to the LoDO brewing spreadsheet (which I had nothing to do with, and I don't use)

techbrau is correct in his assessment and Martin is on target for pointing out the error in the assumptions.

76 ppm just sort of stuck and a few people have corrected the chemistry since then.

Both the reference spreadsheet and the full Low Oxygen brewing spreadsheet are open source and not password protected. People can make the changes in the background calcs as they see fit and I'll correct the numbers in the sheets posted at ******************** to reflect that. I'll also put a comment in clarifying.

 

[day_trippr]

Good Sir Martin @mabrungard, have you had a chance to integrate Na2S2O5 into the supporters (and/or freebie) spreadsheets?

Cheers!