Bru 'N Water Sparge - No Sparge Question

[Gytaryst]

When I get too many things in my brain all at once it freezes up. Forgive the pictures but supposedly they're worth a thousand words and I'm already long-winded enough.

I wrote "No sparge" in the title, but I am going to sparge. What my question is really about is adjusting the mash and sparge water separately or just adjusting all the water the same. The first picture is how the numbers worked out adjusting all the water the same. I know adding pickling lime and lactid acid is not recommended, but I wanted to get the numbers as close to the Rochefort profile as possible and get the pH right.

The second picture is adjusting the mash and sparge water separately. All of the other additions are the same except I don't need to add acid.

My question is which is the better way to go? I've always done the water additions a day or two before I brew to allow the minerals to absorb and the water to stabilize. Apparently I've had an over-simplified understanding of pH. I've read where you want to shoot for a pH of about 5.4-5.6 for making beer. I've always used Bru 'N Water and I've always tried to keep the pH in that range. Sometimes I check the water with my pH meter, sometimes I get lazy. I checked the pH of the mash after the grains were added a couple times but wasn't real sure what I was looking for so it was kind of a waste of time really. And finally, I was watching a video the other day where the guy was talking about a beer he brewed and how the pH changed over the months he had it sitting and how the flavor changed as a result of the pH changing???

So apparently my understanding that the "water" should be 5.4 to 5.6 before I do anything else is a little naive. If I adjust the water separately for the mash and sparge I don't need to add acid, but then obviously the pH is going to be a lot higher when I add the sparge water. Which tells me that the pH of the sweet wort is probably important, and then the pH is going to change after it's boiled, correct? So is that pH as important? And every time I add hops or something else to the wort I'm going to change the pH. Is it important to check that every time and is there a number I should be looking for?

 

[balrog]

"How's your beer? Do you like it?"

That was the question posed of me by someone when I started down the water chemistry rabbit hole.

Brunwater is supposed to help get close to what you want when measured 15 min into mash with sample cooled etc.

You could measure ph all through the process and shelf life. You could also measure a lot of other things. I've no idea which would be the most important to what metrics you decide to analyze.

 

[Gytaryst]

Some of my beer is good, some is real good and some is . . . uh . . . less than real good. I thought I had an okay idea about pH until I started putting this recipe together. Suddenly I was broadsided with the idea that I know absolutely NOTHING about pH and what little bit I did understand was probably wrong.

But I think I'm going to stick with adjusting the mash water and sparge water separately. I'm not sure WHY but that's worked so far. Sometimes I get a wild hair up my ^$$ and think I need to KNOW the science behind this stuff.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Firstly, forget about matching the Rocherfort profile. You don't know what they are adding or removing from their water via treatment so you can't really match their water.
That aside, Stan H in Brew Like a Monk lists their water as high calcium, high carbonate and that they mash at a pH of 5.8 to 5.9, then adjust to 5.2 in the kettle. This was from 2005 though, so could have changed.
The only point to adding lime and acid at the same time is to boost Calcium without chloride or sulphate (I wouldn't bother with it). All you're really doing is adding Calcium lactate, which isn't matching Rochefort's water.
I would suggest adding Calcium chloride to get 50ppm Calcium for mash and sparge water, then acidify as needed to get a 5.6 mash pH, and a 5.2 boil pH. Simpler would be acidifying to a 5.4 mash pH and not acidifying the boil.
If you want to match Rocheford's listed water profile, add Chalk (Calcium carbonate), not lime (which won't add carbonates). Chalk doesn't dissolve well in water, so use this method
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Building_brewing_water_with_dissolved_chalk
That will allow you to mash at 5.8 as Rochefort reportedly do, then acidify the boil to 5.2 (use Phosphoric acid rather than Lactic - it will need too much lactic which will possibly be tasteable).
I'd bet that if Rochefort had access to your water though, they wouldn't be adding carbonates!

 

[Gytaryst]

Firstly, forget about matching the Rocherfort profile. You don't know what they are adding or removing from their water via treatment so you can't really match their water.

I agree 100%. I use Bru'n Water for every beer I brew and 99.99% of the time I just select one of the generic; "yellow, brown or black - dry, balanced or full" settings. I used the "Rochefort" setting on this one because the numbers looked interesting - not because it said "Rochefort."

That aside, Stan H in Brew Like a Monk lists their water as high calcium, high carbonate and that they mash at a pH of 5.8 to 5.9, then adjust to 5.2 in the kettle. This was from 2005 though, so could have changed.

I bought his book several years ago and have started to read it a couple of times. I think it's poorly written and it was hard for me to get past that, so I've never gotten too far into it.

But again, I've never really been interested in copying or cloning someone else's beer. I love drinking Trappist ales. But as far as brewing is concerned I'm more interested in learning the processes, the methods, the techniques, the science, and how everything works together to create those amazing beers. I'm not necessarily interested in brewing something that tastes exactly like someone else's beer. That seems so "paint-by-numbers" to me.

The only point to adding lime and acid at the same time is to boost Calcium without chloride or sulphate (I wouldn't bother with it). All you're really doing is adding Calcium lactate, which isn't matching Rochefort's water.

except for the last 5 words that was interesting. That's the stuff I'm trying to learn.

First and foremost I love beer. That's my primary reason for brewing.
Second - I'm an artist and I love the creative artistic aspect of making beer.
I've never in my life been interested in science or chemistry... until I got into brewing. I love trying to learn about it - but I also realize I'm so far behind the eight ball where that side of it is concerned that I'm never going to fully grasp it.

So I come on here and ask questions that I'll probably forget the answers to in a month.

I would suggest adding Calcium chloride to get 50ppm Calcium for mash and sparge water, then acidify as needed to get a 5.6 mash pH, and a 5.2 boil pH. Simpler would be acidifying to a 5.4 mash pH and not acidifying the boil.

That makes a lot of sense. I might just try that.

If you want to match Rocheford's listed water profile, add Chalk (Calcium carbonate), not lime (which won't add carbonates). Chalk doesn't dissolve well in water, so use this method
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Building_brewing_water_with_dissolved_chalk
That will allow you to mash at 5.8 as Rochefort reportedly do, then acidify the boil to 5.2 (use Phosphoric acid rather than Lactic - it will need too much lactic which will possibly be tasteable).
I'd bet that if Rochefort had access to your water though, they wouldn't be adding carbonates!

That all sounds like great information to chew on too - thank you.

 

[FunkedOut]

The 5.4 - 5.6 target is for the mash pH, not the strike water.
Bruno Water is predicting the mash pH. That’s why the grain bill matters.
The reason you need acid in the first screen shot is because of all the additional lime you’re adding to the mash versus the second screen shot.

If you treat your water (10 gallons) like the first screen shot, but only mash with 4 gallons of those 10 gallons you prepared, don’t expect the predictions to line up with your actual mash.

If you already knew this, my apologies; carry on.

 

[FunkedOut]

The first picture is how the numbers worked out adjusting all the water the same.

The second picture is adjusting the mash and sparge water separately. All of the other additions are the same except I don't need to add acid.

The first picture is how the numbers worked out mashing with 10 gallons.

The second picture is mashing with 4 gallons.