Brewhouse Efficiency

[JosephN]

So I'm fairly new to brewing, about 1.5 months in and I'm getting ready to brew my 6th batch, 3rd all grain batch. I have found a recipe that is close to what I want, but an issue that I'm having is how to figure out the efficiency they used vs mine.. When I've create a recipe in a calculator I use 60%, and when I check my gravity before pitching my yeast I'm either a bit higher or right on the money. I believe that I'm safe to assume that my efficiency is 60% up until this point. Now this is a tricky part for me. When my beer is totally done fermenting I normally have a higher FG than anticipated, usually by about .005-.010... I don't think it has anything to do with misreading the hydrometer, since I read it the same each time. I think I just have a very healthy yeast strain right now. So how do you calculate "brewhouse" or overall efficiency? And do you all have suggestions on how to figure old what efficiency % someone used when putting together their recipe?

Thanks for you help

 

[sandyeggoxj]

Brewhouse efficiency is looking at what percentage of theoretical sugars you have at packaging. Grain has a PPG rating which means point/pound/gallon. So if a base malt has 37PPG then one pound in 1 gallon would yield a theoretical 1.037 gravity.

Brewhouse efficiency is taking all this into account, including "sugar" lost to kettle and fermenter trub, and yielding a final amount of sugar for the yeast. The bigger indicators to be looking at are mash and kettle efficiency.

My brewhouse efficiency is terrible because I have 2.5 gallons of dead space in my BK. It takes a big hit at 10-gallon batches but a smaller hit for 20-gallon batches. I get great mash efficiency and I know how my system works so I can get within my expected OG with good precision and repeatability. I think precision and repeatability are greater skills than some astronomical, but sporadic, brewhouse efficiency.

 

[JosephN]

Okay so kettle efficiency, what do you try to look for there? It seems like my last 2 all grain batches I got the expected pre boil gravity as expected, and I seemed to keep it throughout the boil until pitching time. I have been takin into consideration my hydrometer temp adjustments also. So what should I look for in kettle efficiency?

 

[m00ps]

If your OG is usually on point but your FG is that much higher its gotta be your yeast health and/or mash temps. Are you making starters or pitching enough yeast along with appropriate fermentation temps?

I dont think the issue is your efficiency if youve been mostly consistent. And thats the biggest thing, consistency. Id rather have 60% every time than vary between say 70-80% or else I wouldnt be able to properly design recipes

 

[sandyeggoxj]

Okay so kettle efficiency, what do you try to look for there? It seems like my last 2 all grain batches I got the expected pre boil gravity as expected, and I seemed to keep it throughout the boil until pitching time. I have been takin into consideration my hydrometer temp adjustments also. So what should I look for in kettle efficiency?

Consistency. You can do a brew day or two with your recipe entered into brewersfriend and enter your various gravity and volume measurements to see what your mash, kettle, fermenter and brewhouse efficiency. What the numbers are is much less important than understanding how you got there.

How are you measuring gravity? If it is a hydrometer how close to the calibration temperature are you getting? A refractometer is perfect for measuring the hot side pre-fermentation.

 

[AndytheBeave]

I think precision and repeatability are greater skills than some astronomical, but sporadic, brewhouse efficiency.

Amen to that!

 

[JosephN]

I

 

[rlmiller10]

Okay so kettle efficiency, what do you try to look for there? It seems like my last 2 all grain batches I got the expected pre boil gravity as expected, and I seemed to keep it throughout the boil until pitching time. I have been takin into consideration my hydrometer temp adjustments also. So what should I look for in kettle efficiency?

From your original post it seems you question might have more to do with attenuation then efficiency since you are talking about a final gravity (post-fermentation) being a bit high.

Brewhouse efficiency, comes down to (residual sugar + sugar converted to alcohol and CO2 in a bottle or keg)/(total potential sugar in the grain) For example if you have 10 lb of grain that has to potential of 38 points per lb. You start with 380 possible points. You are using a total of 9 gallons of water for your mash and sparge so you have potential of 9 gallons of 1.042 spec grav wort. So you mash and you get a mass efficiency of 80% you now have a possibility of 9 gallons of 1.034 wort. But the grain absorbs some and .5 gal is left in the mash tun. So in reality you get 7 gallons of 1.038 wort in your kettle. (the reason the 7 gal is 1.038 is that the wort absorbed and left in the mash tun is sparge wort so it has a gravity less then the 1.034 calculated) Now you boil which boils away 1.5 gal so you have 5.5 gal of hot wort at 1.048. You cool and transfer but a little bit gets left in the kettle with the trub so you have 5 gallons of 1.048 wort in your fermentor. Finally you keg 4.5 gallons of beer with a 5% abv and 1.009 in the keg.

So in the end my total gravity in alcohol and residual sugars is 4.5 gal X 48 points per gal so 216 total points. I had the potential of 380. So my brewhouse efficiency is 216/380 or 56.8%

 

[JosephN]

Haha I'm still getting used to using this app on my phone

 

[JosephN]

m00ps I make a starter a few days out (usually 3 days), my mash temps are about 1-4 degrees from the ideal temp, and I have a dual stage fermentation chamber.

The reason I bring this topic up is because I have some batches I want to do that require 23-34# of grain and 5# of pumpkin. My equipment isn't big enough to start packing much more, if even that much in my 10 gallon mash tun cooler. I've noticed in the Brewersfriend calculator that with a better efficiency % that you can use less grain to get your final desired abv. This helps cut down cost and having to purchase more equipment just to get a 6 gallon batch ready to ferment (meaning mashing and all at one time and not in several mini batches).

 

[JosephN]

How are you measuring gravity? If it is a hydrometer how close to the calibration temperature are you getting? A refractometer is perfect for measuring the hot side pre-fermentation.

I do measure with a hydrometer, and usually get pretty close within 10° or so of the 60° calibration specification. I don't really have the cash for refractometer at this time and I just haven't seen the point in one since you can't measure after fermentation to have a consistent reading from the same device. I'd still have to go with a hydrometer afterward so it has just made sense to stick with that versus spending the money. Now I may be way off in joe the refractometer works and if so please correct me.

 

[sandyeggoxj]

I would use this for brew day: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00OJYN3OS/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

And this for the end of fermentation: http://www.morebeer.com/products/final-gravity-hydrometer.html

 

[JosephN]

Brewhouse efficiency, comes down to (residual sugar + sugar converted to alcohol and CO2 in a bottle or keg)/(total potential sugar in the grain) For example if you have 10 lb of grain that has to potential of 38 points per lb. You start with 380 possible points. You are using a total of 9 gallons of water for your mash and sparge so you have potential of 9 gallons of 1.042 spec grav wort. So you mash and you get a mass efficiency of 80% you now have a possibility of 9 gallons of 1.034 wort. But the grain absorbs some and .5 gal is left in the mash tun. So in reality you get 7 gallons of 1.038 wort in your kettle. (the reason the 7 gal is 1.038 is that the wort absorbed and left in the mash tun is sparge wort so it has a gravity less then the 1.034 calculated) Now you boil which boils away 1.5 gal so you have 5.5 gal of hot wort at 1.048. You cool and transfer but a little bit gets left in the kettle with the trub so you have 5 gallons of 1.048 wort in your fermentor. Finally you keg 4.5 gallons of beer with a 5% abv and 1.009 in the keg.



So in the end my total gravity in alcohol and residual sugars is 4.5 gal X 48 points per gal so 216 total points. I had the potential of 380. So my brewhouse efficiency is 216/380 or 56.8%

That makes perfect sense and helps understand things a bit more in detail.

So as I posted a few mins ago my main concern is having to use more grain to get to the same ABV as someone else that is able to extract more of the sugars. Really it comes down to having limited space in my mash tun and kettle to end up with 6 gallons of a high gravity beer. I'm not as much concerned with 6% and below because it automatically requires a lot less grain, but 23-24# of grain is a lot to try and stick in a 10 gallon mash tun.

Any thoughts? Btw thanks for helping to point me in the right direction.

 

[JosephN]

See above

 

[JosephN]

I would use this for brew day: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00OJYN3OS/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

And this for the end of fermentation: http://www.morebeer.com/products/final-gravity-hydrometer.html

Not bad!!! I haven't seen the final gravity hydrometer, but that makes better sense and would seem WAAAAY more accurate. I might pick those up today and go ahead and get my new 10 gallon kettle.

 

[JosephN]

I would use this for brew day: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00OJYN3OS/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

And this for the end of fermentation: http://www.morebeer.com/products/final-gravity-hydrometer.html

That not bad at all!! I haven't seen the final gravity hydrometer yet, which now that I see this it's making more sense and seems like it would be much more accurate. I'm gonna look closer into it, but you've about got me sold. I might end up getting both as well as a new 10 gallon boil kettle!!!

 

[JosephN]

I would use this for brew day: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00OJYN3OS/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

And this for the end of fermentation: http://www.morebeer.com/products/final-gravity-hydrometer.html

I'm gonna have to look into this a bit more because it seems like you've shown me a more accurate way to measure my wort/beer.

 

[JosephN]

Sandy

I'm gonna have to look into this a bit more because it seems like you've shown me a more accurate way to measure my wort/beer.

 

[sandyeggoxj]

Sandy

I'm gonna have to look into this a bit more because it seems like you've shown me a more accurate way to measure my wort/beer.

I use these methods. They work very well. I like going to 4 decimals for my FG. Overkill? Yes. Entertaining? You bet! They make some other ranges of precision hydrometers that I am going to start buying. That way you use the right hydrometer for the range you expect to be within.

Right tool for the job!

 

[JosephN]

I like going to 4 decimals for my FG

What do you mean by "4 decimals for my FG"?

 

[MagicRat]

I found the various formulas I'd seen frustrating and cumbersome to figure out for me, so I worked backwards. I entered a recipe into the Brewer's Friend calculator using 65% Brewhouse efficiency. The actual OG was higher than calculated and the FG was right on the nose. So I plugged the same recipe and same yeast back into the calculator and moved the BHE % until I got those numbers. I ended up with a new BHE of 70% which I then used in formulating my next recipe - hit the predicted OG of 1.070 on the nose and it's now in the ferm bucket. As long as I know I can rely on that 70% number when coming up with new recipes that's all I'm really concerned with at this point.

 

[sandyeggoxj]

What do you mean by "4 decimals for my FG"?

For example I have a saison that ended at 1.0042 SG. It was between 1.004 and 1.005 and I could estimate it an additional decimal place coming up with 1.0042 as my FG.

 

[JosephN]

I found the various formulas I'd seen frustrating and cumbersome to figure out for me, so I worked backwards. I entered a recipe into the Brewer's Friend calculator using 65% Brewhouse efficiency. The actual OG was higher than calculated and the FG was right on the nose. So I plugged the same recipe and same yeast back into the calculator and moved the BHE % until I got those numbers. I ended up with a new BHE of 70% which I then used in formulating my next recipe - hit the predicted OG of 1.070 on the nose and it's now in the ferm bucket. As long as I know I can rely on that 70% number when coming up with new recipes that's all I'm really concerned with at this point.

Man that is exactly what I'm talking about. Now I've only signed up for the free 5 recipes and I don't think that any feature is locked, but I'm gonna have to try this method also.

 

[JosephN]

For example I have a saison that ended at 1.0042 SG. It was between 1.004 and 1.005 and I could estimate it an additional decimal place coming up with 1.0042 as my FG.

I see what you mean by over kill, but being as specific as I can is all the better imo

 

[rlmiller10]

That makes perfect sense and helps understand things a bit more in detail.

So as I posted a few mins ago my main concern is having to use more grain to get to the same ABV as someone else that is able to extract more of the sugars. Really it comes down to having limited space in my mash tun and kettle to end up with 6 gallons of a high gravity beer. I'm not as much concerned with 6% and below because it automatically requires a lot less grain, but 23-24# of grain is a lot to try and stick in a 10 gallon mash tun.

Any thoughts? Btw thanks for helping to point me in the right direction.

You can get 23 lb of grain in a 10 gal round cooler but it is tight.

There are several steps you can do. On the brew house efficiency you want to get as much wort as possible in your kettle and eventually into your keg. Some things that will help that are putting in a dip tube below your false bottom if using a false bottom. If using a bazooka type screen just tip your cooler to get more wort. Avoid boil overs as that loses wort. Go ahead and put the hot break into your fermenter, it will compact down and you will leave a lot less beer behind than you would leave in the kettle trying to not move the hot break into the fermenter.

The bigger difference would be boosting mash efficiency. Most important is to get the finest grind you can while not getting stuck sparges. Second is ensuring good ph, i.e. 5.2 to 5.8, including for your sparge water.

Lastly, if you just can't make it, have a little DME or LME to add in the last 15 minutes of the boil to boost your gravity. (this is probably the most fool proof and the cheapest way. as well as the easiest.)

 

[JosephN]

I found the various formulas I'd seen frustrating and cumbersome to figure out for me, so I worked backwards. I entered a recipe into the Brewer's Friend calculator using 65% Brewhouse efficiency. The actual OG was higher than calculated and the FG was right on the nose. So I plugged the same recipe and same yeast back into the calculator and moved the BHE % until I got those numbers. I ended up with a new BHE of 70% which I then used in formulating my next recipe - hit the predicted OG of 1.070 on the nose and it's now in the ferm bucket.

So I went back in and looked at a previous recipe. I had to do a few things to get the numbers to line up. First I had to change my BHE% by just 1%, so I ended up with 61% which gave me my OG on the nose. Next I had to move the Attenuation of my yeast from 75% to 90% to get it down from the expected 1.015 to where it is now at 1.006... From my understanding this doesn't have ANYTHING to do with my efficiency but more along the lines of the yeasts attenuation, like someone stated earlier. I just don't get why everything I have brewed has ended up with a much lower FG and higher ABV than expected....

Thanks for the heads up on this method, I'm going to pay more attention to this and see if I stay consistent or I improve.

 

[JosephN]

You can get 23 lb of grain in a 10 gal round cooler but it is tight.

There are several steps you can do. On the brew house efficiency you want to get as much wort as possible in your kettle and eventually into your keg. Some things that will help that are putting in a dip tube below your false bottom if using a false bottom. If using a bazooka type screen just tip your cooler to get more wort. Avoid boil overs as that loses wort. Go ahead and put the hot break into your fermenter, it will compact down and you will leave a lot less beer behind than you would leave in the kettle trying to not move the hot break into the fermenter.

The bigger difference would be boosting mash efficiency. Most important is to get the finest grind you can while not getting stuck sparges. Second is ensuring good ph, i.e. 5.2 to 5.8, including for your sparge water.

Lastly, if you just can't make it, have a little DME or LME to add in the last 15 minutes of the boil to boost your gravity. (this is probably the most fool proof and the cheapest way. as well as the easiest.)

One thing I have been working on is trying to figure out a efficient way to remove the hot break, and hops without losing much wort at all. The reason I'm trying to do that is because I really fill my carboys up pretty full, throw in a blow off tube and let it ride. I figured the cleaner I got the wort the better tasting beer I would end up with. I just have an issue with having trash in my fermentation tank. I'm kind of a freak like that, haha.

Mash PH is always at 5.2, and I usually pull about 1/4 gallon more out than the recipe calculator projects. I know that is not much, but its something. I guess that means that the water either didn't penetrate the grain or my measurements were slightly off when I put it in.

Also thanks for the tips on DME and LME. I'm gonna have to see how much grain I can really pack in that cooler, haha.

I'm gonna work harder at perfecting this. I know its science and I'm starting to understand more each day.

 

[wardens355]

Have you measured your temperature of your mash over time to see if you are losing heat rapidly? Do you stir-in really well, waiting until the probe reads pretty well constant before covering the tun? Do you pre-heat your mash tun?

Maybe you are losing heat quickly and end up mashing at a lower temperature, making a more fermentable wort. Or maybe your temperature probe is off a bit. Also, your post may be a little confusing to some, as you mention a higher than normal final gravity in your original post and a lower than normal final gravity in a more recent post. I assume it's the latter, as you mentioned having more booze than expected.

 

[rlmiller10]

I just don't get why everything I have brewed has ended up with a much lower FG and higher ABV than expected....
.

Happy yeast. You are doing things right.

Also, what is your temp control? If your fermentation temps are at the high end of the yeast range you will get a little higher attenuation than at the bottom of the range. I would also wonder if you thermometer is off and you are mashing a little cooler than you think so you are getting more fermentable wort. 4 degrees will make a difference.

 

[MagicRat]

So I went back in and looked at a previous recipe. I had to do a few things to get the numbers to line up. First I had to change my BHE% by just 1%, so I ended up with 61% which gave me my OG on the nose. Next I had to move the Attenuation of my yeast from 75% to 90% to get it down from the expected 1.015 to where it is now at 1.006... From my understanding this doesn't have ANYTHING to do with my efficiency but more along the lines of the yeasts attenuation, like someone stated earlier. I just don't get why everything I have brewed has ended up with a much lower FG and higher ABV than expected....



Thanks for the heads up on this method, I'm going to pay more attention to this and see if I stay consistent or I improve.

Just to clarify, when I went back and plugged in the numbers from batch #1, I did not have to change the FG at all. I manipulated the BHE up to 70% to get to my actual OG and it just so happened that the projected FG matched my actual FG for that particular yeast strain (WLP005 in this case) (well, I'd like to think it didn't just so happen but that it matched because that's the result I was supposed to get). I'm just encouraged that the 70% BHE is a solid number for my process because my current batch hit the projected OG of 1.070 using that %. I will follow up in about a week with my FG assuming fermentation is complete by then.