Brewer's Edge Mash & Boil

[lmbc6]

Assuming my new (first!) immersion chiller shows up on time tomorrow, I plan on breaking in the first brew on my unit. I have an idea in mind for the short term when it comes to a stand/table, but really looking for something more convenient. Everything I have come across seems to be just a few inches too short, or way too tall for my liking. I think something in the 16-18 inches high range is about perfect for me height wise, and still be able to drain into my tallest fermenter. Wheels are probably mandatory as my brewing area and chilling area will probably be across the basement for the foreseeable future. I saw a link to a wheeled printer stand on an earlier post in this thread, but the ones I've seen have seemed flimsy for something that going to be full of boiling liquid. Does anyone have any suggestions for something that isn't custom built? Although, I'd appreciate the custom builds as well. I always do have beer to buy labor...

I got an elfa stand with wheels from the Container Store. It is 21" tall. That has worked really well for me.

 

[Heer4beer]

Hi everyone! I’ve been using the Mash and Boil for a few batches now and now that I’m trying to “perfect” my beers a little bit more I’ve been starting to pay more attention to mash/spare volume and pre and post boil gravitates in a effort to make more consistent beers. The one issue that I’ve been noticing is that for the life of me I can’t collect the correct amount of wort using any calculator that I’ve found online.
For instance
Currently brewing a IPA with 13lbs of grain. I am trying to get a total of 6gal into the fermentor.
The calculator says I should be mashing with 4 gal and sparging with 6gal to get a total volume of 7.5 gal pre boil (assuming .25 gal to trub loss and 1 gal loss from the fermenter to the keg) which is obviously more then I would need to collect. But after adding the above stated amount I am still only ending up with 6.5 gal collected in the mash and boil (pre boil). Ideally I would have liked to have about 6.75 total pre boil so I would be able to get closer to 6 gal in the fermemter but it’s not the end of the world. Just very frustrating that I can’t get the numbers dialed in. After reading this thread I’ve seen people with similar grain bills using 4gal to mash and another 4 to sparge and coming up with 6.5 gal pre boil and I’m just not sure what I’m doing wrong..

TLDR: I can’t get mash and sparge numbers to equal projected pre boil volume. Any idea what I could be doing wrong?

 

[Jag75]

Just add 1/4 gallon to your sparge. Does the M&B have a calculator in their book or do they have an app?

 

[Heer4beer]

Just add 1/4 gallon to your sparge. Does the M&B have a calculator in their book or do they have an app?

I don’t think that they do. I’ve just been using a few different online calculators and always come up short (which is better then having too much since I can always just add a bit more water to the sparge) but I’d obviously like to be able to have some correct calculations before starting the brew day. I’m just not sure where I could be “loosing” about a gallon of pre boil volume or needing to add another 2 gal of sparge water depending on which calculator I use. Just one of those things that will bug me. Obviously making corrections while sparring isn’t an issue but I figured I’d ask if anyone had any ideas what I could be doing wrong that other people seem to be using similar calculators and collecting the correct amount of pre boil volume. As you said just add a 1/4 gal to the sparge but in the calculators eyes I should then have a volume of 7.75 gal when I would in reality have about 6.75. I just don’t know how people with similar grain bills (13lbs) use 8 gal to get to 6.5 gal pre boil and I have to use 10. Can grain crush factor in to this equation at all? Not sure what other variables there can really be if someone’s using the same system..

 

[Jag75]

Your going off of a calculator . One that is probably just a general one . It really matters what your vessel does . Lots of notes will help you figure out your amounts to a T. Check out the Grainfather app . Maybe it's close to that of the M&B . My Gf boils off 1 gph. The app is dead on the amounts on every single beer .

 

[ba-brewer]

@Heer4beer beer what are you using for the following; grain absorption, boil off, kettle trub loss?

preboil = mash water + sparge water - grain absorption - system losses(assume none in an all in one)

13lb of grain will absorb almost a 1.5gal unless you use a bag and squeeze it dry. Even when I squeeze the crap out of a bag I still get close to .1gal/pound grain absorption which is no where close to .6gal/pound some calculators use.

I put my hops in bags and a 5 gal batch of beer gives me a half gallon of settled trub. If you dump it all in the fermentor that will compact to maybe .25gal.

If you measure volume of hot water you need to account for expansion.

 

[Coastalbrew]

Hi everyone! I’ve been using the Mash and Boil for a few batches now and now that I’m trying to “perfect” my beers a little bit more I’ve been starting to pay more attention to mash/spare volume and pre and post boil gravitates in a effort to make more consistent beers. The one issue that I’ve been noticing is that for the life of me I can’t collect the correct amount of wort using any calculator that I’ve found online.
For instance
Currently brewing a IPA with 13lbs of grain. I am trying to get a total of 6gal into the fermentor.
The calculator says I should be mashing with 4 gal and sparging with 6gal to get a total volume of 7.5 gal pre boil (assuming .25 gal to trub loss and 1 gal loss from the fermenter to the keg) which is obviously more then I would need to collect. But after adding the above stated amount I am still only ending up with 6.5 gal collected in the mash and boil (pre boil). Ideally I would have liked to have about 6.75 total pre boil so I would be able to get closer to 6 gal in the fermemter but it’s not the end of the world. Just very frustrating that I can’t get the numbers dialed in. After reading this thread I’ve seen people with similar grain bills using 4gal to mash and another 4 to sparge and coming up with 6.5 gal pre boil and I’m just not sure what I’m doing wrong..

TLDR: I can’t get mash and sparge numbers to equal projected pre boil volume. Any idea what I could be doing wrong?

It does sound like there's something going on. What calculator are you using? I've used Brewers friends and biab calculator. Bru'n water will get you a pretty good number as well. I calculate my strike water with 1.7 qt/#. Then I'll heat up my sparge water with a little extra. I just sparge until I hit my desired volume. I use a biab bag inside the grain pipe. Letting the grain drain thoroughly and squeezing the bag gently will also help to get a little more wort into the kettle.

 

[Heer4beer]

Your going off of a calculator . One that is probably just a general one . It really matters what your vessel does . Lots of notes will help you figure out your amounts to a T. Check out the Grainfather app . Maybe it's close to that of the M&B . My Gf boils off 1 gph. The app is dead on the amounts on every single beer .

Yeah I agree I know it’s all different depending on the system that I’m using. I did realize my boil off number was slightly off I had it estimated at .5 gal per hour when it’s really closer to 1 gal per hour. I’ll Deff have to check out that app. Thank you.

@Heer4beer beer what are you using for the following; grain absorption, boil off, kettle trub loss?

preboil = mash water + sparge water - grain absorption - system losses(assume none in an all in one)

13lb of grain will absorb almost a 1.5gal unless you use a bag and squeeze it dry. Even when I squeeze the crap out of a bag I still get close to .1gal/pound grain absorption which is no where close to .6gal/pound some calculators use.

I put my hops in bags and a 5 gal batch of beer gives me a half gallon of settled trub. If you dump it all in the fermentor that will compact to maybe .25gal.

If you measure volume of hot water you need to account for expansion.

13lb grain bill
By the math: 4 (mash) + 6 (sparge)= 10 gal - absorption rate (X) pre boil gravity = 6.5 can “X” for absorption really be 3.5 gal? I think that seems very excessive

It does sound like there's something going on. What calculator are you using? I've used Brewers friends and biab calculator. Bru'n water will get you a pretty good number as well. I calculate my strike water with 1.7 qt/#. Then I'll heat up my sparge water with a little extra. I just sparge until I hit my desired volume. I use a biab bag inside the grain pipe. Letting the grain drain thoroughly and squeezing the bag gently will also help to get a little more wort into the kettle.

I was using a calculator by morebeer and grain absorption was set at .13 and boil off was set to 10%.

When I switch the .13 for grain absorption to .6 (just to see) it just has me add another 5 gal of sparge water to compensate (saying I now need about 15 gal of water total to start)

 

[ba-brewer]

13lb grain bill
By the math: 4 (mash) + 6 (sparge)= 10 gal - absorption rate (X) pre boil gravity = 6.5 can “X” for absorption really be 3.5 gal? I think that seems very excessive

Me too. Maybe there is a dead space value hidden somewhere in the calculator.

Preboil = package volume + boil off + kettle loss + fermentor loss
Assume .5gal lost to kettle trub
Assume 1gal/hr
Assume .5gal lost to fermentor trub
Assume 5gal packaged
Preboil = 5 + 1 + .5 + .5 = 7gal

Assume .12gal/pound 13lb will absorb 1.56gal. ​

mash + sparge = preboil + absorption = 7 + 1.56 = 8.5gal

Plug in your number for my assumptions and see what you get and how that matches to your last brews.

Every system is a bit different, just be consistent where you can and make adjustment as needed to find what works for you.

edit: the above assumes a batch sparge type situation, if you fly sparge then that is not enough, extra water(a few gallons maybe) is required and you need to control when you stop the drain.

 

[Coastalbrew]

[QUOTE="Heer4beer, post: 8764423, member: 263484
I was using a calculator by morebeer and grain absorption was set at .13 and boil off was set to 10%.

When I switch the .13 for grain absorption to .6 (just to see) it just has me add another 5 gal of sparge water to compensate (saying I now need about 15 gal of water total to start)[/QUOTE]
That is a very specific calculator that factors allot of variables into the equation. If you're actual numbers are not the same as the assumed values in the formula you'll never get an accurate result. I suggest doing a few more brews on your system and observing and noting your actual values for each of those variables, then plugging your numbers into the calculator. On my M&B I have a boil off rate of 1 gallon, I basically live at sea level. I leave .25 gallon in the kettle when transferring to the fermenter.

I just plugged my numbers into the calculator from my may batch and it was within .25 gallon. That's not too bad. What values are you entering for your trub losses and your equipment losses?

 

[Heer4beer]

Me too. Maybe there is a dead space value hidden somewhere in the calculator.

Preboil = package volume + boil off + kettle loss + fermentor loss
Assume .5gal lost to kettle trub
Assume 1gal/hr
Assume .5gal lost to fermentor trub
Assume 5gal packaged
Preboil = 5 + 1 + .5 + .5 = 7gal

Assume .12gal/pound 13lb will absorb 1.56gal. ​

mash + sparge = preboil + absorption = 7 + 1.56 = 8.5gal

Plug in your number for my assumptions and see what you get and how that matches to your last brews.

Every system is a bit different, just be consistent where you can and make adjustment as needed to find what works for you.

edit: the above assumes a batch sparge type situation, if you fly sparge then that is not enough, extra water(a few gallons maybe) is required and you need to control when you stop the drain.

Ok maybe the calculator that I was using from morebeer was for batch sparking then? Since the numbers that you indicated are similar to what that calculator said. When I used a calculator from homebrewing.com t came out much closer to the actual amounts that I used and ended up with. I used 4 gal to mash and 6 gal to sparge and came up with about 6.25-6.35 gal pre boil. The grain absorption is also much higher at 2.6gal then your estimated 1.56 gal. I’ll just need to brew some more and get everything dialed in! (Not that I really need an excuse to keep brewing )

 

[TheLionKing]

Does anyone have a BrewFather equipment profile for the Mash & Boil that's been working for them?

 

[Heer4beer]

Does anyone have a BrewFather equipment profile for the Mash & Boil that's been working for them?

Also interested in this. I changed some numbers around to mimic the last recipe that I did but have not tried the equipment profile on a new brew so I’m not sure if it’s accurate. Would love to see what other people have used for it.

 

[mkopec1]

I feel the major problem with these setups is the mash temp not being consistent all the way through, since the heating element and temp probe is down at the bottom, so the thicker your mash is in the mash tube, the more problems you will have. Now the new units with the circulation pumps solve this problem, pulls the mash liquor from the bottom, then recirculates it on top, basically stabilizing your temps. And maximizing your yield. I would always monitor the temp towards the top of the mash. and whats coming out of the re-circulation tube since the temp is often times wrong on the unit itself. But once you find out the temp variation, if any, you can quickly determine the real temp based on the reading.

But even if you have an older unit this can be easily solved with a $70 pump and some silicone hose. I would opt for this setup anyway over the built in pump because you can control what type of pump you get, a quality one with SS input and output housing. Plus you can vary your flow rate with a simple valve on the output of the pump.

I would also invest in some sort of insulation for these units. It helps during mash and it also helps during boil as well.

I also find its a good idea to include some rice hulls, about 1/2+ lbs to every mash to make sure youre getting a proper filter bed. They are cheap and will give you a perfect filter bed every time.

I sparge with hot water that I get from a dedicated 100 cup coffee brewer ($125) I got just for this purpose. I replaced the valve on the coffee brewer with a proper SS one to control flow. Sparge until your wart volume is reached (7-7.5 gal) and youre good to go.

I also feel that the fault with these systems, at least the 120v ones, is the time it takes to get to temp, and boil. And also is the boil vigorous enough? I guess this is kind of one of those things one has to weigh the pros and cons. 1500w-1600w is kind of lacking IMO. But you do get to brew in your basement or even kitchen vs brewing outside or garage. Those of us that have vigorous winters without a dedicated insulated garage can attest that these things are perfect for indoor brewing.

BTW they do sell additional heater arms that go well in these systems, basically adding another 1600w that you hang on the inside of the kettle once trying to boil. Doubling your wattage. I think they are around $130ish but you need another dedicated 20amp circuit. I dont have one but seriously considering one to up the game.

 

[Alex4mula]

If someone is not getting the water volumes right most probably is because of some wrong estimate (boil, losses, etc.). I use this calculator https://www.mibrewsupply.com/recipe/mash and it is very accurate most of the time. Worst case I am left with extra sparge water. I use 0.9g/hr boiloff rate, 0.3g kettle loss, and 0.3g fermenter loss. I also mash thin at 1.6 mash thickness. I have the cheap Amazon pump for recirculation (did manually before 1.5g every 15min), mix mash twice (do 75min mash) and kind of fly sparge and mix grains twice there too. I also squeeze grains at the end. I also cush my grains at 0.48. Since I started all this I have been getting 92% avg conversion efficiency and getting the best beers I have ever made. Have the system for one year now. Started doing extract and last 12 has been all-grain. For the price, I think it is hard to beat this system. Others use similar H/W as you can see. Other than adding recirculation I think the best improvement would be for more accurate temp control. but once you get to know it then you can manage easily.

 

[Immocles]

So, first things first, I really love brewing on this unit. I biab inside the mash pipe on the original, non recirc version.

But I either have a brew problem, a software problem, or both. I've nearly always used beer smith, and it has been consistent as can be when I was brewing stovetop batches of all sorts of quantities. I noticed since I upgraded to the M&B, I hit my volumes, I hit my pre boil gravity, but miss my OG by a point or two, while still ended up with the correct volume into the fermenter. It generally isn't a big deal when its a 4-5% beer, but I noticed when I'm shooting for something over 6%, the difference expands. My last two brews, I missed by 6-7 gravity points (both were spoze to be around 1.063, and ended up being around 1.055/56. Measurements backed up by spare hydrometer, and refractometer. All three are in agreement). It's definitely not life or death, but how is it that I'm mashing efficiently ( sometimes even exceeding it by a point or two), boiling down to the correct volume, but NOT getting the correct gravity? M&B not boiling hard enough? Missing something in the beersmith profile? I think I'm just going to have to resort to lowering my BH Eff on the profile, and use a handful more grain?

 

[bleme]

But I either have a brew problem, a software problem, or both. I've nearly always used beer smith, and it has been consistent as can be when I was brewing stovetop batches of all sorts of quantities. I noticed since I upgraded to the M&B, I hit my volumes, I hit my pre boil gravity, but miss my OG by a point or two, while still ended up with the correct volume into the fermenter.

My only guess would be your eq settings show zero deadspace and a matching higher than actual boil-off.

 

[Snark_Wolf_Brewing]

Review time here. I brewed my first ever batch of all grain beer the other night with my brand new Mash & Boil. No fancy mods, or recirculation. Held mash temperature at a steady 150 during the 60 minute mash. Didn't really notice the dramatic temperature swings on the control panel like a lot of other users have talked about. Achieved a good boil about 50 minutes after getting my pre-boil volume in the kettle. Overall, I feel it's the best $299 I've ever spent on homebrewing.

 

[user 263363]

I sure can’t wait to break mine out and use it. It’s been sitting in the box for well over a month now. Been waiting to break it in on my first 5 gallon batch. Ordered a couple kegs today so hopefully it won’t be long now.

 

[TwistedGray]

Review time here. I brewed my first ever batch of all grain beer the other night with my brand new Mash & Boil. No fancy mods, or recirculation. Held mash temperature at a steady 150 during the 60 minute mash. Didn't really notice the dramatic temperature swings on the control panel like a lot of other users have talked about. Achieved a good boil about 50 minutes after getting my pre-boil volume in the kettle. Overall, I feel it's the best $299 I've ever spent on homebrewing.

I always get the temp swing, but I don't fret...still makes good beer

 

[Snark_Wolf_Brewing]

I always get the temp swing, but I don't fret...still makes good beer

Yeah, I checked the mash temp with an Inkbird instant read thermometer a few times during the course of the mash in and it showed a solid 150. The reading on the control panel was only off by 2 or 3 degrees under 150. Pretty confident I'm gonna have a great batch of Blonde Ale to drink in a few weeks after I get it bottled up and let it carbonate.

 

[hcarter004]

This is the one I'm looking at: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07KQPQ7CZ/ref=ox_sc_act_title_3?smid=A2XGPJRYNKIXYO&psc=1


Copy and paste of basic description:

• ALL-IN-ONE: The Mash and Boil includes pump and makes home brewing and mashing easy - no need for an outdoor burner or brewing stand. Our precise thermostat and internal sparging basket lets you mash and boil in the same vessel.

• TEMPERATURE CONTROL: This model features an adjustable thermostat with a Fahrenheit and Centigrade toggle. A thermometer hole is provided in the lid, in case you want to monitor the temperature of the top of the mash.

• RECIRCULATION PUMP: Easily attach the Recirculation Arm and tubing and turn on the recirculation pump which keeps even temperatures throughout the brewer during mashing.

• PROGRAMMABLE TIMER: Our brewing system comes with an adjustable runtime preset at 3.5 hours for safety and it also features a delayed start timer, so you can program the Mash and Boil to turn on up to 24 hours after setting.

• STAINLESS STEEL: The Mash and Boil’s exclusive double wall stainless construction conserves heat and is very easy to clean.

 

[TwistedGray]

This is the one I'm looking at: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07KQPQ7CZ/ref=ox_sc_act_title_3?smid=A2XGPJRYNKIXYO&psc=1


Copy and paste of basic description:

• ALL-IN-ONE: The Mash and Boil includes pump and makes home brewing and mashing easy - no need for an outdoor burner or brewing stand. Our precise thermostat and internal sparging basket lets you mash and boil in the same vessel.

• TEMPERATURE CONTROL: This model features an adjustable thermostat with a Fahrenheit and Centigrade toggle. A thermometer hole is provided in the lid, in case you want to monitor the temperature of the top of the mash.

• RECIRCULATION PUMP: Easily attach the Recirculation Arm and tubing and turn on the recirculation pump which keeps even temperatures throughout the brewer during mashing.

• PROGRAMMABLE TIMER: Our brewing system comes with an adjustable runtime preset at 3.5 hours for safety and it also features a delayed start timer, so you can program the Mash and Boil to turn on up to 24 hours after setting.

• STAINLESS STEEL: The Mash and Boil’s exclusive double wall stainless construction conserves heat and is very easy to clean.

Do it

 

[Immocles]

To anyone else that does biab on this unit, I have a question!

I've never brewed anything higher volume than 4G on my unit, how big of a volume can you manage doing a full volume mash? I know a simple dunk sparge is super easy, but full volume is still easier! I'd like to start splitting 5G into 2 fermenters to test out yeasts and fermentation temps.

 

[Snuffy]

I normally start with about 4.5 gals of mash water in the M&B. That’s for grain bills in the 12 to 14 lb range. If it‘s thick, I top it up a bit. After the initial basket drain I usually have about 3 to 3.5 gals left. I sparge it back up to about 6.25 gals and then boil off a gallon. Using a hop spider I can get a tad over 5 gals into the fermenter with minimal trub.

 

[Immocles]

Hmmm.

Would it make much of a difference if I mashed with, say, 5 gallons and then dunk sparged in about 1.5G for my volume? or is that too thin? I used to have to sparge on my old stovetop method in about a gallon of water, but that was mostly because I could eke out a slightly better efficiency. It wasn't so much about the volume and I admittedly never learned that whole thin/thick mash concept. Do you sparge at a certain temp? I generally did at 168ish on my stovetop, but I brew in the basement these days and don't really trust myself with carrying hot water down the stairs.

 

[Snuffy]

Not sure what you mean by dunk sparge. The only way I know to sparge an all grain batch in the M&B is to pour over the raised inner grain basket. Dunk sparge sounds like something from an extract brew with partial grain where you teabag before adding extract. I’ve brewed several batches with a room temp sparge that came out fine but I usually try and use water in the 160-170 range. I was in the same situation where I had to heat water upstairs and carry it down. Not cool. ( NPI). I bought a 2 liter electric pitcher that heats water to a set temp in a few minutes. 4 or 5 pitchers with that and I’m up to boil volume.

 

[GBRbrew]

I have the mash and boil with pump and was wondering if anyone had upgraded the recirculation arm with a camlock quick release I'm having trouble finding info on the right parts to use.

 

[Dancy]

I have the mash and boil with pump and was wondering if anyone had upgraded the recirculation arm with a camlock quick release I'm having trouble finding info on the right parts to use.

I just bought a M&B a few weeks ago from William’s Brewing and ordered their camlock recirc arm at the same time for $25. It works fine but truthfully, not necessary. Obviously it is a convenient quick release as opposed to a screw-on version which is included. If it is important to you, go for it.

 

[Alex4mula]

I have done 63 brews with this system and really love it. I added the Amazon pump by brew thirty something. Works perfect. Just be sure to clean it with PBW right away. Otherwise it can get stuck with the sticky sugary wort residue. I bet it can happen too with the M&B one.