Brewer's Edge Mash & Boil

[Kampenken]

I do constant mash recirculation and measure the middle of the mash in the basket with a fluke temperature meter and a wire probe and the top of the mash with an instant read and they were the same as the unit's temp probe. As mentioned I had no overshoot with the recirculation running. I'm just looking to tighten up my temps.

Sounds like a little babysitting is in order if you desire to heat up earlier than a 6F drop. Why not when temp falls 2, put set pt up 6 to get it to turn on? Then turn back down when it comes up to where you want (or +1-2) to get it to stop? Annoying way to get around it (like the idea of used GF controller) but should alleviate the issue.

 

[TexasWine]

Gotta admit, I was really excited about this thing when it first came out, hence the origin of the thread. But a 6 degree hysteresis would prevent me from ever buying it. If they made it adjustable, or brought it down to 1 degree, maybe 2, it'd be much more appealing.

 

[BrunDog]

Does the temp bounce around? I can't tell from the pics but my bet is they are using thermistors. With the right implementation, they are very accurate. However they can also be noisy. Depending on the passive (and digital filtering, but I doubt much if any), the Hysteresis may need to have a wide gap to reduce rapid relay switching from aberrant readings. Of course if the temp readout seems stable, ignore this whole post as it won't apply!

 

[Weezy]

I do constant mash recirculation and measure the middle of the mash in the basket with a fluke temperature meter and a wire probe and the top of the mash with an instant read and they were the same as the unit's temp probe. As mentioned I had no overshoot with the recirculation running. I'm just looking to tighten up my temps.

If your have no overshot with recirculation running, what's the problem? I'm confused. One list got said it's swinging 6 degrees then you say you have no overshoot? Does the constant recirculation maintain a true temperature of not?

 

[Island_Dan]

If your have no overshot with recirculation running, what's the problem? I'm confused. One list got said it's swinging 6 degrees then you say you have no overshoot? Does the constant recirculation maintain a true temperature of not?

My problem is with the controller not holding a tight enough mash temperature. I set my strike temp to 156, it heats and gets to 156. I mash in and temp drops to my desired mash temp of 150. I set the controller to maintain a mash temp of 150 but due to the 6 degree hysteresis, the controller won't switch the heating elements back on to maintain 150 degrees until the mash temp drops to 144. When the heater comes on, the temps rise back up to 150 and the controller turns off the elements and the cycle continues again for the entire mash. Temps moving between 144 and 150. I want it at 150 and for it to bring it back up to 150 when the temp drops to 149.

 

[scottibones]

I have gone the babysitting route and can maintain a much tighter temperature range. Unfortunately this is not a set it and forget it system. I do a constant recirculation mash. I am drinking my first beer made on this system and it didn't turn out like it has in the past. When I brewed it I just let the system do it's thing which I wouldn't recommend. I hit my numbers just fine but the beer turned out much sweeter so there are long chain sugars not able to be converted. I can only contribute this to the wide temperature swing.

 

[garrettbuckeye]

Interesting. My first brew with the M&B finished just like it has on my other setup. I haven't found as much of a temperature swing throughout the mash though. Sure, the unit says it swings up or down, but my readings from the top of the grainbed have been within 2 degrees for both of my brews. I have a pump, but have not used it yet. Still trying to keep it simple.

 

[redarmy990]

I have gone the babysitting route and can maintain a much tighter temperature range. Unfortunately this is not a set it and forget it system. I do a constant recirculation mash. I am drinking my first beer made on this system and it didn't turn out like it has in the past. When I brewed it I just let the system do it's thing which I wouldn't recommend. I hit my numbers just fine but the beer turned out much sweeter so there are long chain sugars not able to be converted. I can only contribute this to the wide temperature swing.

Would you recommend doing 90 minute boils instead of 60 to try to eliminate this or would it not make a difference.

 

[Weezy]

You guys talk in circles! DOES IT MAINTAIN A TIGHT TEMPERATURE RANGE WITH CONSTANT RECIRCULATION OR NOT? Does it it swing 6 degrees with constant recirculation? If so, are you verifying with a separate temp probe in the grain bed?

Here, let's do a nice simple questionnaire. If owners fill it out, we can all better inform potential buyers:

1. do you recirculate with an external pump through the grain bed?
   
2. does the readout show temperature swings while recirculating? if so, what is the temp swing, + and - from the set temperature?
   
3. are you checking your mash temperature with a separate temperature probe/thermometer in the grain bed?

 

[ba-brewer]

Would you recommend doing 90 minute boils instead of 60 to try to eliminate this or would it not make a difference.

The boil would not have impact, but possible doing a 90 min mash and just the temp swing without correction might do something. The longer it stays near the lower temp range the more fermentable the wort should become.

If the time it takes to correct the temp are some what consistent then it seems like with a some trial and error you could find setting that produce consistent results. It does not seem like the temp is overshooting so you dont risk of denaturing the enzymes. Also with temp only dropping it seems like it would be harder to make a sweeter beer than it would to make a dry one.

 

[Island_Dan]

Weezy,

1. Yes I recirculate my mash through the grain bed.

2. My set temp is 150 and temp fluctuated between 144 and 150.

3. Yes this fluctuation occurs on the control readout and on my temp probe in the middle of the grain bed.

 

[garrettbuckeye]

You guys talk in circles!

Welcome to the interwebs! You can thank Al Gore.

I think batch size would be important too. Temps will fluctuate more with smaller batch.

Recirculation will also lose temp and cause unit to cycle on/off more.

Let's be real here... it's not a PID controller. It's not perfect. It is pretty cheap though.

 

[scottibones]

The boil would not have impact, but possible doing a 90 min mash and just the temp swing without correction might do something. The longer it stays near the lower temp range the more fermentable the wort should become.

If the time it takes to correct the temp are some what consistent then it seems like with a some trial and error you could find setting that produce consistent results. It does not seem like the temp is overshooting so you dont risk of denaturing the enzymes. Also with temp only dropping it seems like it would be harder to make a sweeter beer than it would to make a dry one.

This was the 1st batch and the swing was 6 degrees on both sides of the setpoint. Ex. mash temp set at 151 down to 146 heat on overshoot to 158 heat off and it did this twice. No recirculation no manual interference just let it do what it was engineered to do. I have abandoned this procedure and now recirculate and manually force the heater on and off to lesson the swing.

 

[Weezy]

Weezy,

1. Yes I recirculate my mash through the grain bed.

2. My set temp is 150 and temp fluctuated between 144 and 150.

3. Yes this fluctuation occurs on the control readout and on my temp probe in the middle of the grain bed.

Thanks. If that's the case I'd stop recommending this thing to people.

 

[scottibones]

You guys talk in circles! DOES IT MAINTAIN A TIGHT TEMPERATURE RANGE WITH CONSTANT RECIRCULATION OR NOT? Does it it swing 6 degrees with constant recirculation? If so, are you verifying with a separate temp probe in the grain bed?

Here, let's do a nice simple questionnaire. If owners fill it out, we can all better inform potential buyers:

1. do you recirculate with an external pump through the grain bed?
   
2. does the readout show temperature swings while recirculating? if so, what is the temp swing, + and - from the set temperature?
   
3. are you checking your mash temperature with a separate temperature probe/thermometer in the grain bed?

1 No for the first batch yes to the second and third.

2 Yes for the first batch 6 degrees down and an overshoot of 6 degrees. No for the second and third as I was manually manipulating the controller.

3 On my unit the temperature exactly matches a separate thermometer in the grainbed.

 

[ba-brewer]

This was the 1st batch and the swing was 6 degrees on both sides of the setpoint. Ex. mash temp set at 151 down to 146 heat on overshoot to 158 heat off and it did this twice. No recirculation no manual interference just let it do what it was engineered to do. I have abandoned this procedure and now recirculate and manually force the heater on and off to lesson the swing.

OK, must have misread how the unit was swinging. That does seem like it would be harder to control the body of the beer without some sort of intervention.

 

[wilserbrewer]

With 12 degrees swing in temp, I would choose just to insulate the vessel and call it good. Perhaps add a little heat and a stir at 20-30 minutes if it makes you feel better.

 

[jrcrilly]

A 12 degree swing would concern me. What is being reported here is a 6 degree swing with recirc and a 2 degree swing without. Neither would concern me very much. Set it to 153 and let range between that and 147 and it is all good for typical brews. Shift the range up or down as desired for specific needs. Like most PID/HERMS users I keep the mash within a 1 degree range just because I can but it is not necessary.

 

[TexasWine]

2 Yes for the first batch 6 degrees down and an overshoot of 6 degrees. No for the second and third as I was manually manipulating the controller.

What is being reported here is a 6 degree swing with recirc and a 2 degree swing without.

@jrcrilly, I don't think a 6 degree swing is being reported. A 12 degree swing is, at least by @scottibones.

 

[Island_Dan]

His massive swing was without recirculation. The 6 degree hysteresis is impossible to avoid however so even without temp overshoot, the unit still won't cycle back on until 6 degrees below your set temperate. No amount of insulation or recirculation can change the programming in the controller.

 

[hausofstrauss]

With 12 degrees swing in temp, I would choose just to insulate the vessel and call it good. Perhaps add a little heat and a stir at 20-30 minutes if it makes you feel better.

Agreed, I plan to switch over to this system from exclusive BIAB. During the mash now, I just insulate my kettle and add a little heat if I'm low. I plan to do the same with the Brewer's Edge.

 

[Weezy]

Agreed, I plan to switch over to this system from exclusive BIAB. During the mash now, I just insulate my kettle and add a little heat if I'm low. I plan to do the same with the Brewer's Edge.

And I used to wonder why they put a thermometer hole in the lid.

 

[kjd175]

I've learned so much lurking here for quite a while and feel like I should try to contribute...

I've been brewing for several years, but just switched to all grain BIAB late last year. I was limited to about 3 gallon batches and was looking for an easy way to throw in some 5 gallon batches. The grainfather was appealing, but I didn't want to spend the money, so I ordered my mash and boil last Thursday. As I continued to read this thread the last few days, I became increasingly worried that I made a mistake.

The unit arrived yesterday (the box was a bit beat up, but no damage of any kind) and I immediately set up for some temp tests. I added 4 gallons of hot water and set the temp to 153. It took about 20 mins to get to temp and the heat shut off. It took 25 minutes to drop to 147 - the point that the heat turned back on. The temp was back to 153 in about 2 minutes - the heat relay definitely turned off at 153 although the temperature did briefly get to 154 (maybe 20 seconds). Again, it took 28 minutes for the heat to turn back on at 147.

After the 2 minutes to get back to 153, I quickly wrapped it with two layers of reflectix (very sloppy, with no cutouts for the handles or ball valve). This time it took 38 minutes for the temp to drop down to 147. I feel like with proper insulation, it may not even drop 6 degrees during a 60 minute mash.

I feel a bit better now after my tests - I know it may be different with grains instead of all water. At least in my case, the hysteresis in only in one direction - maybe they updated the firmware?

I've also read here that the majority of conversion takes place within the first 15 minutes of the mash. Is that true? If that's the case, I'm even less concerned given that the temperature only dropped 1-2 degrees in that time with my poor insulation.

Hopefully I'll be brewing this weekend for a real test.

 

[mhochman]

I'm no expert in mash-science, but it seems to me (again, based on my limited knowledge) that it may pay to set the mash temp to 154, and let it drift down through the medium body range over the hour. After about a half hour it would kick back on and bring it back through the medium range over whatever minutes.... At this point you'd maybe want to lower the set temp. This would keep it in the medium range for most of the hour, but require only one babysitting moment.

Of course, I could have no idea what I'm talking about.

 

[Weezy]

The last two posts are very wise advice, imho.

 

[wilserbrewer]

I've learned so much lurking here for quite a while and feel like I should try to contribute...

I've been brewing for several years, but just switched to all grain BIAB late last year. I was limited to about 3 gallon batches and was looking for an easy way to throw in some 5 gallon batches. The grainfather was appealing, but I didn't want to spend the money, so I ordered my mash and boil last Thursday. As I continued to read this thread the last few days, I became increasingly worried that I made a mistake.

The unit arrived yesterday (the box was a bit beat up, but no damage of any kind) and I immediately set up for some temp tests. I added 4 gallons of hot water and set the temp to 153. It took about 20 mins to get to temp and the heat shut off. It took 25 minutes to drop to 147 - the point that the heat turned back on. The temp was back to 153 in about 2 minutes - the heat relay definitely turned off at 153 although the temperature did briefly get to 154 (maybe 20 seconds). Again, it took 28 minutes for the heat to turn back on at 147.

After the 2 minutes to get back to 153, I quickly wrapped it with two layers of reflectix (very sloppy, with no cutouts for the handles or ball valve). This time it took 38 minutes for the temp to drop down to 147. I feel like with proper insulation, it may not even drop 6 degrees during a 60 minute mash.

I feel a bit better now after my tests - I know it may be different with grains instead of all water. At least in my case, the hysteresis in only in one direction - maybe they updated the firmware?

I've also read here that the majority of conversion takes place within the first 15 minutes of the mash. Is that true? If that's the case, I'm even less concerned given that the temperature only dropped 1-2 degrees in that time with my poor insulation.

Hopefully I'll be brewing this weekend for a real test.

A mash will tend to hold temperature much better than just a water test. While your findings are useful to understand the internal operation of the unit, the time / temp loss figures are not nearly as relevant. Water will cool much quicker than a mash.

Insulate the vessel during the mash with a couple towels / blankets. The way the M+B is configured without a pump, automated temp control isn't part of the original package imo, as a pump is critical to automating mash temp.

 

[bford]

It seems that adding a pump and some better insulation might keep the heat loss from ever fully regressing... or at least down to one full cycle.

 

[garrettbuckeye]

It seems that adding a pump and some better insulation might keep the heat loss from ever fully regressing... or at least down to one full cycle.

I'm pretty sure adding a pump and recirculating causes more of a temperature loss, and will therefor cycle the unit on/off more.

 

[TANSTAAFB]

You will definitely lose some heat when you recirculate. I would really like to see someone insulate the $hit out of this thing with reflectix, hit a target temp, see how much heat is lost over 15, 30, 45, and 60 minutes, and whether it drops enough to ever kick the heat back in. I live where it gets fn COOOLD during winter so I really want to make this work so I can brew inside w/o dicking around with my stove. I'd probably only do a 45 minute mash and I'm always hovering around monitoring temps anyway. Everyone has reported that the built in thermometer matches backup measurements. I usually have to add some heat to my BIAB setup mid mash anyway, so I don't really see a problem with manually kicking up the temp once or twice. Let's say you set it at 150, it drops to 148, you manually raise the set temp to 155 and back down when it gets to 150.

 

[Weezy]

I'm pretty sure adding a pump and recirculating causes more of a temperature loss, and will therefor cycle the unit on/off more.

Yes, there's no point to recirculation if the controller isn't reacting to temp changes fast enough. As was said above, you're much better off insulating it, heat to proper strike temp, mash in, cover and let it sit. Check it after 20 minutes and add heat if necessary then.