Brewer's Edge Mash & Boil

[Vabeer]

Second time brewing with the Mash and Boil – it was a disaster, thanks to a cascading series of rookie mistakes. I’m posting the details hoping to spare others. First batch was a hefeweizen using some old grain, hops and yeast I had in the fridge. It actually came out pretty well but my efficiency was low and I blamed it on the crush. I use a Corona mill. Second batch was a SMASH ipa. I doubled down on the crush – there was a good bit of flour so I threw in some rice hulls. I also added a recirculation pump, because I had trouble holding mash temp on the first batch. I started the pump at full flow and immediately compacted the grain bed. The wort was barely flowing through the mash tube and the pump was cavitating. I took a long handled stainless steel stirring spoon and tried to loosen it, scraping against the bottom of the mash tube several times and finally got it flowing slowly with repeated stirring. Same problem with the sparge, wort barely trickling out so I kept stirring the bottom of the grain bed. The wort was really cloudy but I hoped it would eventually settle out . Got a good boil going for 15 minutes and then got the E4(dry) error code. Reset, stirred the wort, started again, another error code. Tried a couple more times, finally gave up and drained the kettle. The bottom was covered by about a half-inch of grain, like coarse sand. I'm guessing this was caused by my fine crush and heavy stirring. There was a coating of burnt grain over the element. I cleaned everything, filtered the wort twice through a couple of biab bags I had sitting around, racked it back into the kettle and started again. The Mash & Boil didn’t hold a grudge and gave me another good boil so I finished the recipe and pitched the yeast. No idea how it will turn out. Lessons learned – I’ll pay more attention to the crush and maybe invest in a roller mill. I’m also thinking about using a bag inside the mash tube next time. Dumping and cleaning the mash tube is kind of a pain anyway and a bag would help. Also, I was probably too impatient – I think the mash might have eventually drained on its own if I had just left it alone. Good news is the recirculation worked – I hit my mash temp and it held. In the end, the brew took 3 times longer than it should have with 4 times the cleanup. The M&B did exactly what it was supposed to do. If it hadn’t shut down I expect I would have had kettle bottom full of burnt grain and ruined wort. Many lessons learned – looking forward to trying again.

 

[mhochman]

Second time brewing with the Mash and Boil – it was a disaster, thanks to a cascading series of rookie mistakes. I’m posting the details hoping to spare others. First batch was a hefeweizen using some old grain, hops and yeast I had in the fridge. It actually came out pretty well but my efficiency was low and I blamed it on the crush. I use a Corona mill. Second batch was a SMASH ipa. I doubled down on the crush – there was a good bit of flour so I threw in some rice hulls. I also added a recirculation pump, because I had trouble holding mash temp on the first batch. I started the pump at full flow and immediately compacted the grain bed. The wort was barely flowing through the mash tube and the pump was cavitating. I took a long handled stainless steel stirring spoon and tried to loosen it, scraping against the bottom of the mash tube several times and finally got it flowing slowly with repeated stirring. Same problem with the sparge, wort barely trickling out so I kept stirring the bottom of the grain bed. The wort was really cloudy but I hoped it would eventually settle out . Got a good boil going for 15 minutes and then got the E4(dry) error code. Reset, stirred the wort, started again, another error code. Tried a couple more times, finally gave up and drained the kettle. The bottom was covered by about a half-inch of grain, like coarse sand. I'm guessing this was caused by my fine crush and heavy stirring. There was a coating of burnt grain over the element. I cleaned everything, filtered the wort twice through a couple of biab bags I had sitting around, racked it back into the kettle and started again. The Mash & Boil didn’t hold a grudge and gave me another good boil so I finished the recipe and pitched the yeast. No idea how it will turn out. Lessons learned – I’ll pay more attention to the crush and maybe invest in a roller mill. I’m also thinking about using a bag inside the mash tube next time. Dumping and cleaning the mash tube is kind of a pain anyway and a bag would help. Also, I was probably too impatient – I think the mash might have eventually drained on its own if I had just left it alone. Good news is the recirculation worked – I hit my mash temp and it held. In the end, the brew took 3 times longer than it should have with 4 times the cleanup. The M&B did exactly what it was supposed to do. If it hadn’t shut down I expect I would have had kettle bottom full of burnt grain and ruined wort. Many lessons learned – looking forward to trying again.

Thanks for all that valuable info.

 

[Island_Dan]

Okay so I'm adding to the very detailed brewday Vabeer posted about.
I did my first brew with the mash and boil yesterday. It was a German Pilsner. Have never used rice hulls before except when making a wheat beer in my old BIAB setup and with recirculation, I too compacted the grain bed and had to unstick the mash. Throttled the pump back a lot and got a steady flow through the mash. I insulated the M&B with some reflectix also and the heater cycled on twice during my 75 minute mash. Mash temp was set to 150 degrees and it dropped to 144, kicked on the heaters, rose to 150 and didn't overshoot ever. The extra insulation I think may have been detrimental to my brew since it loses temp so slowly that it spends the majority of the mash below my set mash temp. I did a full volume brew so didn't sparge, lifted the basket and let it drain out whilst it heated to boil. It boiled vigorously and held the boil through the entire 60 minutes. Lost about 1/2 gallon and I factored in about .75 gallon kettle loss but when using a pump to transfer, it turns to more like a gallon. My numbers weren't exactly where I wanted them to be. Was aiming for 1.051 and got 1.046 but I think it was due to my equipment profile in beer smith and having a stuck mash for a while which prevented flow through all of the grain bed. The equipment functioned flawlessly and I think the new brew day will be smooth now that I know my mistakes.

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1491146979.443240.jpg

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1491146993.588920.jpg

 

[owmatooth]

I also did my second brew today with the M&B and was also introduced to the lovely E4 error code. Unfortunately I had to run my daughter to softball practice as the temp after mash was hitting 189 on it's way to a boil. I figured 15 minutes wouldn't hurt. I came home to a boil over and E4 code. I also had a bit of condensation inside both the digital screen and the switch covers. I could tell that the boil over had run down the sides and hit the electronics. There is a reset button on the bottom of the kettle (a bit awkward to get to with 6 gallons in it, but glad i didn't have 7.5 gallons). Once reset it worked great and ran for about 20 min until it error'd out again. About 5 resets got me through the boil. hope i haven't fried the electronics, i really think the M&B is a great way to go, especially with the biab.
I did a double run through the mill at my LHBS, and I hit 1.050 for gravity, with an expected 1.053 on beersmith. With all the trouble keeping the boil i was more than happy with it.
On a side note- I'm using an immersion chiller in florida with fairly warm ground water, so i hit 120 in 10 minutes, but takes another 30-40 to hit under 80. To transfer I'm just using a tube and gravity off the faucet on the bottom. I've never had my beer come out so clear. I haven't even bothered with any moss/whirfloc tablets since it looks so clean. I know people want a racking tube on the inside, but i've got no complaints in that department so far.
I'm gonna contact williams and see about caulking around the casing for the electronics, just in case of another boil over, but all and all I'm more than happy with the purchase, and my brew day has gotten much less hands on with the loss of the propane. Still not sure of the purpose of the 1000w switch, i've left it on 1600 and had no issues thus far.

 

[TexasWine]

For those that are starting to go the recirculation route, it sounds like y'all have bumped into the same issues as those of us with other recirculating systems. With that, I'll state a few best practices several of us have happened upon.

1. Don't grind to flour. I've heard of gaps ranging from 0.035 to 0.050. Some folks actually get better efficiency with the larger gap, with the grain bed fluid dynamics being the suspect variable.
2. Condition your grain. The difference in the appearance of your grain will be astounding. Braukaiser has a good how to on it. Google it.
3. Start the pump flow at a very low rate. Gradually ramp it up, but you don't have to go full throttle. Have a valve on your pump discharge, or a variable frequency drive, so you can adjust the flow rate.
4. Install a sight glass so you can watch the level that's outside the grain bed. If it's significantly lower than the liquid level in the grain bed, or you notice it gradually dropping over time, you're pumping too fast.
5. Don't start your pump immediately upon doughing in. Let the grains hydrate and swell, then turn it on.

That's about all I can think of. Hope this helps someone avoid the troubles that I had.

 

[garrettbuckeye]

I brewed this morning with the M&B for the first time. It went great. While the controller kicked on twice and heated the mash, the top of the grain bed stayed within 1 degree the entire time for me. I checked it with a thermapen, so could only get a reading on the top few inches. I did not recirculate via pump, but did pull a gallon and pour on top of grain bed 3 different times during 1 hour mash. It's simple... and less to clean. Anyways... hit 78% efficiency on BM centennial blonde. I mashed with 4 gallons, sparged with 3, and my mill is set at .039". Took 30 minutes to get from mash temp of 150 to boiling. Had no problem bringing 6.5 gallons to a boil. I'm very happy with this purchase.

 

[Island_Dan]

So after two days fermenting at 66 degrees and bubbling away nicely...

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1491278969.682295.jpg

It had an airlock on it when this happened. Picture is after I put a blow off tube. Never had one do a delay blow out like that lol.

 

[bford]

I'm leaning toward getting one of these next month.

Thanks for all the info people. Keep it coming!

 

[kaizen33]

A big thanks to the posters ... I bought 2 of these little guys to play with and to decrease my brewery footprint. They are sitting in there box right now waiting while we move into a new home. Hoping to play with them soon.

 

[BrunDog]

For those that are starting to go the recirculation route, it sounds like y'all have bumped into the same issues as those of us with other recirculating systems. With that, I'll state a few best practices several of us have happened upon.

1. Don't grind to flour. I've heard of gaps ranging from 0.035 to 0.050. Some folks actually get better efficiency with the larger gap, with the grain bed fluid dynamics being the suspect variable.
2. Condition your grain. The difference in the appearance of your grain will be astounding. Braukaiser has a good how to on it. Google it.
3. Start the pump flow at a very low rate. Gradually ramp it up, but you don't have to go full throttle. Have a valve on your pump discharge, or a variable frequency drive, so you can adjust the flow rate.
4. Install a sight glass so you can watch the level that's outside the grain bed. If it's significantly lower than the liquid level in the grain bed, or you notice it gradually dropping over time, you're pumping too fast.
5. Don't start your pump immediately upon doughing in. Let the grains hydrate and swell, then turn it on.

That's about all I can think of. Hope this helps someone avoid the troubles that I had.

This is solid advice. 100% agreed.

 

[mhochman]

2. Condition your grain. The difference in the appearance of your grain will be astounding. Braukaiser has a good how to on it. Google it.

I'm not looking to hijack this thread, but how does one condition the grain if one does not mill the grain himself?

 

[TexasWine]

I'm not looking to hijack this thread, but how does one condition the grain if one does not mill the grain himself?

You'll be hard pressed to have your lhbs agree to this, but you could bring a squirt bottle with you and condition before milling. Like I said, doubt they'll allow this.

If recommend getting a roller mill, even a cheap one. I've got a barley Crusher and it works fine

 

[mhochman]

You'll be hard pressed to have your lhbs agree to this, but you could bring a squirt bottle with you and condition before milling. Like I said, doubt they'll allow this.

If recommend getting a roller mill, even a cheap one. I've got a barley Crusher and it works fine

My homebrew budget is EXTREMELY tight, and I'd like to save up for the Mash&Boil. My local store is great and they're always looking to improve their service, so there's a chance I could get them to do it. I would have to bring them some literature to demonstrate the effectiveness.

 

[TexasWine]

My homebrew budget is EXTREMELY tight, and I'd like to save up for the Mash&Boil. My local store is great and they're always looking to improve their service, so there's a chance I could get them to do it. I would have to bring them some literature to demonstrate the effectiveness.

Just ask them to condition a small amount, like a pound, as a proof of concept. Run it through their mill and they'll be believers.

As someone else on this forum mentioned, it's a wonder grain conditioning isn't standard practice for all grain brewers

 

[skraeling]

Just ask them to condition a small amount, like a pound, as a proof of concept. Run it through their mill and they'll be believers.

As someone else on this forum mentioned, it's a wonder grain conditioning isn't standard practice for all grain brewers

any issues with mold? I imagine that would be concern doing it on large batches that may not be sold / used immediately.

now i say this as someone that doesnt know anything about how the conditioning is done.

 

[ba-brewer]

any issues with mold? I imagine that would be concern doing it on large batches that may not be sold / used immediately.

now i say this as someone that doesnt know anything about how the conditioning is done.

Ideally you would condition and use the grain immediately so mold should not be an issue. Not much water is used also and once it got crush the small amount of water would redistribute further into all of the broken pieces so I not think it would be wet enough for mold.

I have seen people say they condition over night then grind in morning without issues. Also see people say they spritz the grain and grind immediately with good results. I condition my grain and allow to sit while I bring my strike water up to temp then grind just before mash in. Makes a big difference on how the husks looks after grinding.

 

[TexasWine]

^^^^ This. If you condition, you should be using the grain shortly thereafter.

 

[owmatooth]

I'm trying to love the M&B, and it will be my vessel for the near future, but biggest issue i'm having is that it's a 7.5 gal capacity. realistically 6.5 gal is as much as you can push for the boil with hop additions in order not to get a boil over. I want to collect 6 gallons in my carboy to allow for 5 gallon clear rack to my corny. After a 6.5 gallon boil there's not enough to collect 6 gallons in the carboy after cooling.
What are the ideas on adding water to top it off?
1) at end of boil before cooling (which could add in cooling)
2) after cooling before pitching yeast in carboy
3) trying to continue to add boiling water ever 15 min or so during boil to compensate for boil off

i'm open to anything, right now i'm doing a more concentrated boil with the expectation that my added water after boil will water down the OG.

I'm doing BIAB for what it's worth.

 

[garrettbuckeye]

My approach is to adapt to the system. You can't make it something it's not. There are many ways to make good beer. If this setup improves your brew day but only puts 4.5G in the keg... so be it. That's only 4 pints missing from the standard 5 gallon batch.

 

[scottibones]

I'm trying to love the M&B, and it will be my vessel for the near future, but biggest issue i'm having is that it's a 7.5 gal capacity. realistically 6.5 gal is as much as you can push for the boil with hop additions in order not to get a boil over. I want to collect 6 gallons in my carboy to allow for 5 gallon clear rack to my corny. After a 6.5 gallon boil there's not enough to collect 6 gallons in the carboy after cooling.
What are the ideas on adding water to top it off?

1) at end of boil before cooling (which could add in cooling)
2) after cooling before pitching yeast in carboy
3) trying to continue to add boiling water ever 15 min or so during boil to compensate for boil off

i'm open to anything, right now i'm doing a more concentrated boil with the expectation that my added water after boil will water down the OG.

I'm doing BIAB for what it's worth.

Here is a quick video of my last 6 1/2 gallon boil.

 

[TexasWine]

Here is a quick video of my last 6 1/2 gallon boil.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9wpFDROFfo&feature=youtu.be

I wouldn't classify that as a lackluster boil at all. Looked perfect. The concept of having a wort volcano is based on information from yesteryear. Instead, a homebrewer should shoot for 6-8% boil off, which usually results in a nice simmer like you show in the video.

 

[mhochman]

I wouldn't classify that as a lackluster boil at all. Looked perfect. The concept of having a wort volcano is based on information from yesteryear. Instead, a homebrewer should shoot for 6-8% boil off, which usually results in a nice simmer like you show in the video.

I agree. I'm no expert, but that looked perfect to me.

 

[scottibones]

I wouldn't classify that as a lackluster boil at all. Looked perfect. The concept of having a wort volcano is based on information from yesteryear. Instead, a homebrewer should shoot for 6-8% boil off, which usually results in a nice simmer like you show in the video.

Ah yesteryear such fond memories I guess we'll settle for a nice rolling simmer. After 3 brews of different volumes one thing that's spot on is the 1/2 gallon per hour boil off.

 

[Island_Dan]

For informational purposes only, here is what is inside of the control unit.

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1492178091.361833.jpg

This board has the transformer for the logic board, the relays and collects temp probe readings. Interestingly, the unit has a relay for each of the heating elements. I believed at first that the 600 watt element was not controlled but it is by the black relay whilst the white relay controls the 1000 watt element. The 600 watt signal is interrupted by the wattage selector switch to isolate the 1000 watt element only.

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1492178321.089234.jpg

This is the logic board. The larger microchip is the lcd driver and the smaller chip is the MCU which contains the preprogrammed settings. This is why the unit cannot be adjusted to allow changes to the hysteresis.

Not sure if this is useful to anyone but here it is!

 

[Weezy]

Yesteryear??? Don't you guys store your hops on the shelf in paper bags?

This is the logic board. The larger microchip is the lcd driver and the smaller chip is the MCU which contains the preprogrammed settings. This is why the unit cannot be adjusted to allow changes to the hysteresis.

Not sure if this is useful to anyone but here it is!

It just needs a pump, not a reprogramming!

 

[scottibones]

For informational purposes only, here is what is inside of the control unit.

View attachment 396518

This board has the transformer for the logic board, the relays and collects temp probe readings. Interestingly, the unit has a relay for each of the heating elements. I believed at first that the 600 watt element was not controlled but it is by the black relay whilst the white relay controls the 1000 watt element. The 600 watt signal is interrupted by the wattage selector switch to isolate the 1000 watt element only.

View attachment 396519

This is the logic board. The larger microchip is the lcd driver and the smaller chip is the MCU which contains the preprogrammed settings. This is why the unit cannot be adjusted to allow changes to the hysteresis.

Not sure if this is useful to anyone but here it is!

Me not being an electrical engineer asks.....If this controller bites the dust just replace it with a PID and brew on?

 

[Island_Dan]

Yesteryear??? Don't you guys store your hops on the shelf in paper bags?



It just needs a pump, not a reprogramming!

Well the hysteresis of 6 degrees really sucks on this unit. If I am trying to do a medium body mash at 152 degrees, the heater doesn't kick on until 146. I have a pump on mine and I don't ever overshoot my temps but with the reflectix on it, it spends more time out of my desired mash temp than on it as it slowly drops to the trigger temp.

 

[Island_Dan]

Me not being an electrical engineer asks.....If this controller bites the dust just replace it with a PID and brew on?

Not quite that simple. I took mine out because I'm putting a used grainfather controller on it which is programmable. Used controllers from the grainfather can be found for cheap now that everyone is upgrading to the connect. I did have to rewire the heating elements though. I will have pictures of it all when it's done with a full write up on how I made it work.

 

[Weezy]

Well the hysteresis of 6 degrees really sucks on this unit. If I am trying to do a medium body mash at 152 degrees, the heater doesn't kick on until 146. I have a pump on mine and I don't ever overshoot my temps but with the reflectix on it, it spends more time out of my desired mash temp than on it as it slowly drops to the trigger temp.

So you're saying you set it at 152, and the display will show the temp gradually drop to 146 before it turns the heater on?

Are you monitoring the temp in the grain bed separately? The temp at the sensor is going to be a fair bit less than the grain bed, without recirc. If they keep the temp at the sensor close to your desired man temp, the grain bed will be too hot.

If you recirculate through the grain bed, you'll have more even temperature at all times throughout. Then all you need to do is evaluate what temp to set the machine at to keep the brain bed at the desired mash temp. Use a $5 scientific thermometer for taking readngs in the grain bed.

 

[Island_Dan]

I do constant mash recirculation and measure the middle of the mash in the basket with a fluke temperature meter and a wire probe and the top of the mash with an instant read and they were the same as the unit's temp probe. As mentioned I had no overshoot with the recirculation running. I'm just looking to tighten up my temps.