Brew with smoked tobacco??

[brentt03]

Fine with me to kill thread, it was literally just an idea and NOTHING I would take to market without lots of research

 

[danielbt]

Did you read what I posted, It can make you very dead. Not talking about the cancer aspects...talking about the POISON aspect of it when putting it into a liquid form.

Is this so hard for folks to grasp?

It wouldn't be if you weren't using hyperbole to make a point that is overblown and hysterical.

Snuff. Ingested. Chewing tobacco. Ingested.

Yes, the point is to absorb the nicotine through the membrane of the mouth, but you ingest it. You ingest far more of it than you would in drinking beer with a bit of tobacco used in brewing.

Beer has been made with tobacco, commercially. No one has been hospitalized. No one has died. Cocktails have been made with tobacco-infused spirits. No one has been hospitalized. No one has died.

Use facts, not panic. The link you posted is full of assumptions, like that it's possible to completely extract 100% of the nicotine in tobacco through infusion. Doubtful.

Be cautionary; that's a good thing. Making hysterical facts up to try to scare people is not.

It's the amount of a substance that determines how dangerous it is. The link you provided states that if, somehow, you magically extracted ALL the nicotine from 5 grams of tobacco (6 cigarette's worth) in 250ml of vodka, you have enough to make someone have a rush, and maybe get ill from a shot.

That same effect, with the magical 100% extraction, would take over 400 cigarette's worth of tobacco for 5 gallons of beer.

WARNING: don't use 400 cigarettes to infuse your beer.

 

[Revvy]

It's not hyperbole, it's plain facts..You more more info? Here....before you use things like Chewing tobacco in your analogy, do you even understand the method of ingestion, and infusion.

I'm not going to argue with a troll. Here's more info, and I can KEEP giving all any one with half a brain need.

There's a bunch of threads on this topic if you search for it, usually some fool thinks it would be cool to do ...you will find that it is highly toxic. In fact people used to be poisoned by using an extraction from tobbaco.

as little as one in water... Not 400 ciggies.

Lethal Dose
Arsenic 200mg
Strychnine 75mg
Hydrogen Cyanide 60mg
Nicotine 60mg

You are reading that correctly: nicotine is just as toxic as hydrogen cyanide (HCN). Considering HCN was used for chemical warfare purposes and suicide pills, the fact that nicotine is equally as toxic should give a person pause before incorporating it into a drink. Also, even if you don't hit the toxic levels, there are still serious side-effects with lower doses.

Let's do some maths to understand where a tobacco-infused spirit can go wrong.

A single cigarette contains 10 to 20mg of nicotine, but a smoker only gets a fraction of that amount, typically 2 to 3mg of nicotine with the other portion being burned away or not inhaled, but still a buzz worthy dose. In a liquid extraction or infusion process the yield of nicotine will be much higher.

Let's say you take 5 grams of tobacco, with 15mg of nicotine per gram, and infuse that into 250ml of vodka. That means that each 30ml (one ounce) of infused vodka will have roughly 9mg of nicotine. Even though it's not at the toxic level, if someone were to do a shot, they'd get a seriously objectionable rush. A few rounds of cocktails made with this infusion would lead to bad results.

Don't do it..When you hear of a beer or wine that has essence of tobbacco, that is a descriptor, not actual tobacco flavor.

The leaf extract was a popular pest control method up to the beginning of the 20th century. In 1851, the Belgian chemist Jean Stas was the first to prove the use of tobacco extract as a murder poison in the civilised world. The Belgian count Hippolyte Visart de Bocarmé had poisoned his brother-in-law with tobacco leaf extract in order to acquire some urgently needed money. This was the first exact proof of alkaloid

Those flavors come from roasted grains, occaisonally adjuncts like raisins like the above person said. Don't even think about REAL tobacco.

I wouldn't think about smoking malt with it either...let's see, formaldehyde and about 50 other deadly compounds come out in the smoke and would then cling to the grains...

The stuff that comes out in the smoke which will attach itself to the grain will be more often than not, be just as nasty as the nicotine...How do you think the hickory taste gets from the smoke to the meat when you smoke a brisket for example? It's chemical molecules that cling to and penetrate the meat...the same thing will happen to the grain....the compounds given off in the burning tobacco will attach to the grain...then they will leach into the wort...

Heres what the Center for Disease control says about nicotine poisoning...

Clinical description

After oral ingestion of nicotine, signs and symptoms of nicotine poisoning mimic those for nerve agent or organophosphate poisoning and typically include excess oral secretions, bronchorrhea, diaphoresis, vomiting (common, especially among children), diarrhea, abdominal cramping, confusion, and convulsions. Although tachycardia and hypertension are common, bradycardia and hypotension might also occur as a result of a severe poisoning (1, 2).

This is NOT something you wanna mess with folks...all specultion aside...This is potentially LETHAL!!!!!

A cigar, depending on its size and type, can contain anywhere from 10 to 444 mg of nicotine. Cigar smoke produces 30 times more carbon monoxide than cigarette smoke. During this time, high concentrations of tobacco-specific nitrosamines (TSNAs) are produced. TSNAs are some of the most carcinogenic compounds known to man. Secondly, cigar wrappers are not as porous as cigarette wrappers, making the combustion of a cigar less complete. These two factors result in higher concentrations some of the toxic chemicals in cigars than in cigarettes.

Again, this is NOT how those flavors appear in wines and beers where you appear to taste it....What you taste REMINDS YOU of the flavors...but they are NOT THE ACTUAL MATERIALS!!! It's a METAPHOR....

If you guys aren't grasping this idea...listen to this basic brewing podcast....

May 1, 2008 - Beer Eye for the Wine Guy
Gary Vaynerchuk of Wine Library TV brings the thunder to BBR and gives us his perspectives on the art of tasting as he samples homebrew.

Click to Listen

He talks about how we taste, and how it triggers memories of things...

his is an interesting discussion I found on some writing forum where some author was looking for information on liquid nicotine poisoning as a murder weapon in a film....the person answering provided plenty of interesting links and info.

First off, let's look at the dosage of liquid nicotine that needs to
be ingested orally to cause a fatal reaction:

liquid nicotine
URL: http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1121636
Quote: "According to the National Capital Poison Center, the lethal
dosage of nicotine in the human body is 40-60mg, although mild signs
of poisoning can show up after consuming as little as 5mg."

Your murderer character would likely want to use the upper end of that
range to ensure death. 60 mg is the amount in many over-the-counter
capsules. Not a huge amount, but not a trace amount either. There is
no way that that much poison would be able to be concentrated into a
single bite of an apple. Any liquid would rapidly diffuse throughout
much of the body of a piece of fruit.

What is the taste and smell of liquid nicotine?

Nicotine and its Derivatives from Tobacco Waste
URL: http://www.tifac.org.in/offer/tlbo/rep/TMS158.htm
Quote: "Nicotine has a bitter taste and a sharp odour."


Nicotine
URL: http://www.inchem.org/documents/pims/chemical/nicotine.htm
Quote: "Nicotine is a liquid alkaloid. It is water soluble and has a
pKa of 8.5. It is a bitter-tasting liquid"

So, by all accounts, the stuff is nasty tasting and nasty smelling.
Probably very noticable in apples, which are quite mild.

So, even if the victim character doesn't notice the bad taste and
smell, what happens after the first poison-laced bite?

NICOTINE
URL: http://www.cepis.ops-oms.org/bvsapud/i/fulltext/nicotine/nicotine.htm
Quote: "Nicotine initially causes a burning sensation in mouth,
throat, esophagus and stomach. Increased salivation follows. Nausea,
vomiting, abdominal pain, and diarrhea are common. Vomiting may occur
very early after tobacco ingestion, minimizing absorption and other
toxic manifestations."

Not likely to cause the victim character to take a second bite.

While some researchers have experimented with prescribing liquid
nicotine as a smoking cure, the dose is very low and the patient knows
that they are taking the cure and will put up with the taste, smell,
and other nasty sensations:

Liquid Nicotine
URL: http://www.thecarolinachannel.com/health/897821/detail.html
Quote: "Researchers at Duke University Medical Center have patented a
nicotine solution and are testing to see if it can help people quit
smoking. The nicotine solution can be added to coffee, tea, soda,
beer, lemonade or other acidic beverages and consumed several times a
day in place of smoking. In a small pilot study, the solution proved
effective. Twenty-five smokers chose a date to quit and were given the
solution to mix into their beverages with instructions to use it as
needed for smoking urges during a 12-week period. Participants drank
between 2.5 milligrams to 10 milligrams of the solution per beverage.
Abstinence rates reported by participants were 28 percent at 4 weeks,
24 percent at 3 months, and 20 percent at 6 months. Side effects of
the oral solution were minimal. Only one participant dropped out of
the study, complaining of a burning sensation at the site of dental
work."

The only mention I found of trying to camouflage the taste and smell
of nicotine for oral consumption is the "Nicotini", a nicotine laced
cocktail. They go to great lengths to cover up the offensive
taste/smell.


So, if you want to use liquid nicotine in your script plot, I suggest
you find another, more plausible way of getting it inside your
fictitious victim.

Further scientific information on nicotine and its effects can be found at:

NICOTINE
URL: http://www.cepis.ops-oms.org/bvsapud/i/fulltext/nicotine/nicotine.htm

Nicotine
URL: http://www.inchem.org/documents/pims/chemical/nicotine.htm

There is a liquid nicotine solution but I would think they extract it in a way that keeps it below a poisonous limit, I wouldn't trust us to do it though.

I love a good cigar... smoke em if you got em...but don't CONCENTRATE the chemicals in you beer!

People dying is hybole? Kids dying because they got into a jar of water that couple of cigarettes were soaked in can kill...that simple.

I take people experimenting with something potentionally lethal serious.

 

[DrunkleJon]

I stand corrected about smoking grains with tobacco. Probably is a worse idea than I even thought it was. Good read Revvy, can always count on you to have thorough supporting documentation.

 

[danielbt]

I'm not going to argue with a troll. Here's more info, and I can KEEP giving all any one with half a brain need.

Yes, anyone who doesn't agree with your hysteric rants is a troll.

You sound like a Prohibitionist discussing the evils of alcohol, or a modern day version demonizing marijuana.

Nicotine, in sufficient quantities is deadly. That is true for anything on this planet. If you want a rational discussion, which you don't actually seem to, you'll stop using examples that include smoking and injection, or the use of pure liquid nicotine.

The point of the discussion, because you seem to have forgotten, was not the use of nicotine alone as an ingredient in beer, it's about the use of some undetermined amount of tobacco in a batch of beer.

Is it possible to use tobacco in a beer without coming even remotely close to killing yourself? Yes, absolutely. IT HAS BEEN DONE. Where are all the corpses?

as little as one in water... Not 400 ciggies.

In how much water? Or vodka, or beer? If you can't see why that makes a difference, then your argument is completely specious.

400 "ciggies" in 5 gallons of beer is roughly the same ratio of nicotine to liquid as the author of the blog you keep posting used in his example of a non-fatal dose that would give "a seriously objectionable rush".

And that's with the magical 100% extraction. Do you have proof or evidence that it's possible to extract 100% of the nicotine from soaking tobacco in water and alcohol alone, with no other processing?

People dying is hybole?

Yes, if it didn't happen they way you claim it did.

Kids dying because they got into a jar of water that couple of cigarettes were soaked in can kill...that simple.

"Won't somebody think of the children?!"

 

[homebrewdad]

Sufficient quantities? If the linked facts are accurate and 60mg is a lethal dose, why would you bother? You're talking about the toxicity level of cyanide.

 

[danielbt]

Sufficient quantities? If the linked facts are accurate and 60mg is a lethal dose, why would you bother? You're talking about the toxicity level of cyanide.

I personally wouldn't bother, but 60mg of nicotine in a pint is not even remotely what we're talking about.

The rational question is: how much tobacco would flavor a batch of homebrew?

Once that is resolved, then you can do the math on the potential nicotine that would be in that entire batch of beer. 5 gallons = 40 pints. The important distinction is how much nicotine you'd intake per pint, not how much exists in the 5 gallons of beer. The amount of tobacco you'd have to use to ensure that each pint has a fatal dose of nicotine is staggering, and not even remotely close to what would be use to add a bit of flavor to a batch of beer.

 

[DrunkleJon]

But you also have to take into account that most people do not settle for just 1 beer either. You would definitely have to compensate for that as well. Not to mention that smoking tobacco does not put the entire nicotine content into your system, soaking tobacco with nicotine being water soluable, (and I am not a chemist) would extract more nicotine than combiustion alone. This makes me think that the amount of nicotine advertised by the cigarette company will be advertised lower than what the tobacco contains in total. I believe they measure what you can expect to absorb per cigarette rather than total available.

Looks like a lot of math and assumptions need to be made unless you actually steep a cigarette in X amount of water and then measure for the amount of nicotine. As I do not have a lab, nor do I smoke, and am too lazy to google for it that would be where you would need to start if you want to prove anyone wrong. Revvy is the only one who actually Cited his supporting documentation. So until someone actually measures the amount that would be extracted, I will lean towards it not being worth the risk. Besides. I have tasted cigarette tobacco after it has been wet (tried to light a damp cigarette) and it tasted terrible. I will pass anyhow. Though the smell of unburned tobacco is delightful to me.

 

[danielbt]

But you also have to take into account that most people do not settle for just 1 beer either. You would definitely have to compensate for that as well. Not to mention that smoking tobacco does not put the entire nicotine content into your system, soaking tobacco with nicotine being water soluable, (and I am not a chemist) would extract more nicotine than combiustion alone. This makes me think that the amount of nicotine advertised by the cigarette company will be advertised lower than what the tobacco contains in total. I believe they measure what you can expect to absorb per cigarette rather than total available.

The 15mg of nicotine per gram of tobacco is from Revvy's "cites", and is the total amount available for extraction. Smoking a cigarette (0.8 grams of tobacco) means taking in .5mg-2mg of nicotine.

Soaking tobacco in water gives you X mg, soaking in spirits gives you Y mg, boiling in water gives you Z mg. No matter what your method of extraction is, you aren't going over the 15mg per gram, and X+Y+Z is still going to be less than that. You probably need much stronger solvents and mechanical extraction to hit 100% efficiency.

I agree that you'd have to account for people drinking more than one beer, just as they smoke more than one cigarette. To get the equivalent of a cigarette's worth of nicotine per pint (which was not the point of your original post, I might add) you'd want around 5 grams of tobacco per 5 gallons of beer. That also assumes 100% extraction efficiency, which is not going to happen.

More realistically, a large cigar's worth of tobacco in a 5 gallon batch will give you that cigarette nicotine buzz per pint. It would probably be overkill on the flavors you were looking for though.

The point was flavor, right? Not getting a nicotine buzz.

 

[nucciocioccio]

I survived several pints of beer made with tobacco. My fiance survived too, and she doesn't smoke and is half the weight i'm. That's the only real fact here. Or maybe we are superheroes.

 

[cluckk]

I smoke a pipe and I have taken uncased tobacco blends (those without sweeteners applied to them) and added a small amount of Scotch for flavor and allowed it to dry. Perhaps instead of adding tobacco to your beer, you should add some beer to your tobacco. I could imagine adding a touch of a chocolate stout or Scotch Ale--something with some residual sweetness and less hops.

Here is a post on another forum on casing your own tobacco.

 

[Johnnyhitch1]

Im sorry but this has to be the winner for worst idea ever.
If you dont know that high levels of nicotine can cause death then you shouldnt be smoking in the first place...
Its not so much the flavors we have to worry about but the compounds in such matter...

Anyone down for a Castor Beer?! Chock full of ricin to make your insides itch =]

 

[liquiditynerd]

Since this won't die I'm gonna try to kill it. What if I do this, add castor beans as a late addition, forget hops I'll use her cousin, primary with oleander, add some worm wood for aging, and back sweeten with anti freeze to compliment the absinthe, some coffee extract for a kick, and some ever clear to dilute the blood and I nsure instant satisfaction.

Die dman it die whats the opposite of a zombie thread? A vampire thread?

 

[mike_in_ak]

What's the opposite of a good post?

Spoiler

Since this won't die I'm gonna try to kill it. What if I do this, add castor beans as a late addition, forget hops I'll use her cousin, primary with oleander, add some worm wood for aging, and back sweeten with anti freeze to compliment the absinthe, some coffee extract for a kick, and some ever clear to dilute the blood and I nsure instant satisfaction.

Die dman it die whats the opposite of a zombie thread? A vampire thread?

 

[silentmike]

I dont know if this has been said but why not bake the tobacco to vaporize the nicotine? I know that THC vaporizes at a certain temp thus leaving the weed useless except the smell of it. This might work as this is the concept behind the e-cigs.

 

[CreamyGoodness]

I dont have anything against the OP or the posting of a crazy idea (okra mead anyone?) but I just want to reiterate, for whomever might still be thinking about adding tobacco to their beer that it is a remarkably terrible idea.

I'm an ex smoker and ex user of snus and dip (more occassional). Every time, I will repeat for emphasis every time I accidentally swallowed small amounts (far less than a teaspoon) of tobacco juice I vomited. The first time I smoked a cigar I inhaled the smoke. I got the spins and vomited. I was dumb enough to fall asleep with a Snu in my mouth once and woke up to myself vomiting. That was fun. This is not hyperbole nor it is Puritanical. I noticed someone has found a commercial brew that has tobacco in it... and I'm sure that someone who really really knows what they are doing made that brew. Unless you are a skilled chemist I would heartily urge you to never try it yourself.

 

[CreamyGoodness]

By the way, while I am all for screwing around with tomatoes in your homebrewed anythings, I would steer you away from tomato vines and leaves as well. Like tobacco, also poison in rather small quantities.