Brew Magic to electric

[P-J]

This really looks like an exciting project. (At least for me.) I have a lot of ideas spinning in my head. The possibilities are ... Nevermind.

Getting old sucks.!

 

[jtkratzer]

This really looks like an exciting project. (At least for me.) I have a lot of ideas spinning in my head. The possibilities are ... Nevermind.

Getting old sucks.!

Not old, experienced and that results in lots of ideas/ways to get things done, right?

 

[P-J]

Not old, experienced and that results in lots of ideas/ways to get things done, right?

Thank you for that. Yea, I tend to think outside the box and then spend lots of time trying to explain my thinking.

Go figure.

I can't wait (I have to) to dig into the mind jumps for your system.

But that's just me.

P-J

 

[jtkratzer]

Doesn't look good for unloading tonight. Rain is obnoxious, on top of the nearly 14" in the last 30 days, most of that coming from Irene and Lee. Streams are looking swollen and SWMBO isn't motivated to go out in the rain and help me get it out of the truck. Oh well. I think I'll wait until the morning and starting setting up in the garage and get cleaning/assembling.

I talked to Bob at Sabco about the system and getting some info/paperwork/manual/parts list in the event I need to replace something.

I'll get some pictures tomorrow, plug it in, and see what happens. P-J, we'll go from there. I'm really happy to have an eager volunteer to help me out with what will probably be the most challenging part of this - the electrical.

I'm thinking about taking a wire brush wheel to it to remove the rust around where the heat cooked the paint off and repainting since I'm going to go electric with this eventually.

 

[jtkratzer]

Unloaded this morning and applied copious amounts of elbow grease to clean it up. Plugged it in and it lights up on the switch and PID. Hooked up enough plumbing to test the pump but water is draining out of the pump head. The lines to and from the pump are dry on the outside, so it has to be somewhere in the pump. And with the brew magic design of housing the pump in the control box, I have to let everything dry out completely before trying anything else involving power. I'm thinking about remounting the pump elsewhere on the stand since I don't have to protect it from flames/heat once the electric is running.

 

[jtkratzer]

It has a Little Giant pump. I'm thinking it just needs a new o-ring to seal the head, which isn't stainless.

 

[jtkratzer]

Pictures:

The vinyl hose is temporary until I figure out what the missing link is between the return line from the pump and the plumbing for the recirculating mash on the mash tun.

Vintage Control Box:

Guts:

Little Giant:

5 corny kegs sitting in a row:

 

[loserbrewer]

I recently converted a 15 year BrewMagic to electric. Still using propane for the boil kettle burner. I swapped the old jet burner with a Banjo burner.

 

[jtkratzer]

Some pictures of the control panel when turned on:

Initial display

After one click on the lower left button:

Another click:

The last screen pictured ranges from this:

To this:

 

[jtkratzer]

Inside of the kettles (still need some more scrubbing):

HLT with something in the water in the bottom:

MLT:

BK:

Both thermometers look like this and are present on the HLT and BK, which also has a plastic sight glass:

Both thermometers were reading the same temp.

 

[jtkratzer]

I tore the front of the pump apart and cleaned it up a bit and then tried to run it again. It works when recirculating the HLT, but it's pulling a bit of air in, but not leaking. When I switched to the HLT, I think the bit of air being drawn in was too much for it to push the water. I'm going to do some shopping for o-rings and what not, but it's good to know the heating element still works as well as the pump.

Without knowing how long this thing has been sitting, since it comes in contact with the wort, it'd probably be a good idea to replace that heating element and tubing to and from the pump (the vinyl hoses, not stainless plumbing) right?

 

[jtkratzer]

I recently converted a 15 year BrewMagic to electric. Still using propane for the boil kettle burner. I swapped the old jet burner with a Banjo burner.

I like the sight glass in the plumbing. Is that to check the clarity of the wort when recirculating? Can you explain the rest of the plumbing you have going on there as it looks like you eliminated all the original plumbing.

 

[loserbrewer]

I really hated the fact that Sabco used all stainless on the visible plumbing but the heater chamber was copper. This really limited the the chemicals I could use to clean the system. I also didn't like the fact that the chamber was hard to take apart and clean. I remember some interesting stuff coming out of the chamber after along time of not using it.

The sight glass is to check clarity and also to make sure I don't have any air in the heating chamber.

While I was at it I added some inverted kegs to allow bottom drain, and also had a bunch of fun with valves, stainless tubing and other stuff! I guess the only thing left from the original system was the stand!

 

[loserbrewer]

Replacing the element is a good idea, or at least pulling it out to see what condition it is in. Here is what mine looked like after a year+ of sitting:

The chamber does not allow for easy cleaning, and it tends to trap gain. It also does not drain well, at least my generation system didn't.

 

[jtkratzer]

I really hated the fact that Sabco used all stainless on the visible plumbing but the heater chamber was copper. This really limited the the chemicals I could use to clean the system. I also didn't like the fact that the chamber was hard to take apart and clean. I remember some interesting stuff coming out of the chamber after along time of not using it.

The sight glass is to check clarity and also to make sure I don't have any air in the heating chamber.

While I was at it I added some inverted kegs to allow bottom drain, and also had a bunch of fun with valves, stainless tubing and other stuff! I guess the only thing left from the original system was the stand!

The more I looked at your first picture, the more I realized there wasn't much original on it.

I'm going to start using the system as is if the heating element is functional and I can get the pump sealed up. If not, I at least have the kegs and stand. One of my limitations right now is I don't know how to weld or have the tools to do so.

Looks like you have the heating element on the right of the sight glass and the temp probe on the left. Using the pump to go from one side of the lower plumbing to the other. I sent you a PM to find out where you got the stainless and triclamp hardware.

 

[jtkratzer]

Replacing the element is a good idea, or at least pulling it out to see what condition it is in. Here is what mine looked like after a year+ of sitting:

The chamber does not allow for easy cleaning, and it tends to trap gain. It also does not drain well, at least my generation system didn't.

That looks disgusting. I guess that is one advantage of the HERMS system. I also like the idea of putting the element in the kettle below the false bottom to maintain temp as you can do large temp jumps with it as well as simply set it and forget it temp maintenance.

I'll make sure to take pictures of what the element looks like on mine as the guy thinks the system might have sat for a number of years.

 

[jtkratzer]

Seems all connections on the outside of the kettles are compression fittings. For the sake of speed and not needing a wrench for everything, is there an easy way to convert these to some sort of QD without just using a piece of hose and clamp at the kettle and the QD fitting at the other end?

All of the existing plumbing uses these fittings - the ball valves and the drain spout from the MLT to the BK. The only connection that has me puzzled is the return from the pump/RIMS tube to the upper connection on the MLT for the circulation/whirlpool effect. Both pieces of stainless pipe are bare at the ends. I just slipped a piece of vinyl hose over each end when testing the pump, and I guess that would work, but I'm hoping to come up with something a bit more permanent.

 

[P-J]

jtkratzer,

I spent some time today making a full blown all electric setup for your system. Take a look at it and see if it fits your needs. I can certainly tone it down a lot (cheaper) but I'll wait to see what you think about this one. I've included the RIMS setup as well. When we come up with a plan that you want to work with, I'll give you a parts source list for it as well.

One of the things I did in this plan is to interlock the RIMS heater with its associated pump. I am preventing the RIMS element from firing unless the pump is turned on.

I made this plan based on you having a 50A - 240V GFCI protected power source. If that is not possible, I can change it to a 30A - 240V power source, No problem.

As always - click on the image for a full scale diagram that is printable on Tabloid paper (11" x 17").




Pleas let me know what you think.

P-J

 

[johnodon]

My head is going to explode looking at that diagram!!! LOL

Once agian P-J proves he is THE MAN!

Good juck Justin.

John

 

[jtkratzer]

P-J, I sent you a PM...also, what's a ball park number on $$$ for this design?

Also, this can probably be done with one pump and QDs to move the hoses, right?

 

[jtkratzer]

Breaker panel has 240 coming in. The breakers in the main panel range from 15, 20, 30, 40, and 100. There is a sub panel in the garage for the addition above my garage and the hot tub with breakers at 20 and 60 respectively and a 20 GFI below the breaker for the heat in the garage. Dryer is on 30 and the electric stove is on 40.

I have a lot to learn about electric, but everyone starts somewhere.

 

[jtkratzer]

Is a PID necessary to control the element in the boil kettle? Is there any other option to control the power output to the heating element, maybe something as simple as a dial? The dial would probably require wiring a board in the same manner I did to control the fan speed in my stir plate and might end up costing more than a PID...

I'm looking at over $350 for just the three additional PID, 4 SSRs, 4 contactors, and 4 heat sinks...just trying to keep this somewhat under control.

 

[P-J]

Is a PID necessary to control the element in the boil kettle? Is there any other option to control the power output to the heating element, maybe something as simple as a dial? The dial would probably require wiring a board in the same manner I did to control the fan speed in my stir plate and might end up costing more than a PID...

I'm looking at over $350 for just the three additional PID, 4 SSRs, 4 contactors, and 4 heat sinks...just trying to keep this somewhat under control.

I would recommend using the PID to control the boil.
Please let me come up with another plan for you that will be far less expensive to put together. Just a couple of days should get it there.

Do you intend to use the RIMS setup or will you be using a HERMS coil setup?

 

[jtkratzer]

I would recommend using the PID to control the boil.
Please let me come up with another plan for you that will be far less expensive to put together. Just a couple of days should get it there.

Do you intend to use the RIMS setup or will you be using a HERMS coil setup?

I don't know much about HERMS. Something along the lines of pumping the wort through a heat exchanger that's usually submerged in the HLT (which is set to a temp equal to or slightly above the desired mash temp) and then returned to the top of the mash.

I know how RIMS works. I'll probably RIMS since that's what's on the system now and if I need to rebuild the existing RIMS tube, I can probably do that cheaper than a HERMS setup.

 

[P-J]

I don't know much about HERMS. Something along the lines of pumping the wort through a heat exchanger that's usually submerged in the HLT (which is set to a temp equal to or slightly above the desired mash temp) and then returned to the top of the mash.

I know how RIMS works. I'll probably RIMS since that's what's on the system now and if I need to rebuild the existing RIMS tube, I can probably do that cheaper than a HERMS setup.

You have the concept on the HERMS set up. All you need is a 25' or 50' coil of 1/2" OD copper and a few fittings to make a really nice HERMS coil.
1/2" OD X 25FT - REF $27.64
1/2" OD X 50FT - REF $54.53

Now regarding the RIMS. Your IF is something to think about. Rebuild as in replace the element? Yes it would be cheaper depending on the actual element you choose to fire it (the choices are many and you really need to choose the correct one). Then you have to decide if you want a seperate PID to control it. Most cases and setups would require a PID just for the RIMS otherwise it can get tricky with the balance of your brew process. The other possible part of the IF is if you end up replacing the RIMS tube. With that, the cost goes through the roof.

Your setup can be done for a lot less money than what it would be with my first (more to come) diagram. You can use a single PID for a HERMS setup. It can also be done with a single PID with RIMS but you would have to overlord the system and manage it through every step. 2 PIDS with RIMS would be very doable and easier to manage.


I'd be please to help you down any path that you choose to go. No problem.!

P-J

 

[jtkratzer]

You have the concept on the HERMS set up. All you need is a 25' or 50' coil of 1/2" OD copper and a few fittings to make a really nice HERMS coil.
1/2" OD X 25FT - REF $27.64
1/2" OD X 50FT - REF $54.53

Now regarding the RIMS. Your IF is something to think about. Rebuild as in replace the element? Yes it would be cheaper depending on the actual element you choose to fire it (the choices are many and you really need to choose the correct one). Then you have to decide if you want a seperate PID to control it. Most cases and setups would require a PID just for the RIMS otherwise it can get tricky with the balance of your brew process. The other possible part of the IF is if you end up replacing the RIMS tube. With that, the cost goes through the roof.

Your setup can be done for a lot less money than what it would be with my first (more to come) diagram. You can use a single PID for a HERMS setup. It can also be done with a single PID with RIMS but you would have to overlord the system and manage it through every step. 2 PIDS with RIMS would be very doable and easier to manage.


I'd be please to help you down any path that you choose to go. No problem.!

P-J

I want it to work and I don't want it to cost a fortune. I'll shoot you a PM with my cell phone number, maybe we can talk through the pros/cons of the various options. I appreciate all your help and input.

 

[pickles]

Guys,
The thought process going on in this thread is something I worked through during my build. I read through hundreds of posts, a lot of which were dead ends, but found the info I needed eventually. Even though my system is done, for now, I enjoy following these inquisitive threads to see how others solve the same problems I encounter. I know it's much easier to talk in person, but I'd love to see you guys repeat those conversations here as I'm sure TONS of folks will gleen something from them. Please keep us updated on how you approachand tackle these problems!

 

[jtkratzer]

That's my plan, hash out details and concepts on the phone and sum it up here.

 

[jtkratzer]

I've been thinking about how to make this work with only 2 PIDs. Is it using three heating elements (one in each vessel) and four probes (one in each vessel and the last at the exit of HERMS coil)?

The process would go something like this -heat water in HLT to a few degrees above mash temp and heat strike water in BK to temp. Pump water from BK and dough in the MLT. Switch probes/power on the PIDs to the MLT and HERMS coil (temp) and HLT (power). Start pump to recirculate. HERMS coil probe controls the element in the HLT. We don't care what the water temp in the HLT is right now, as long as the wort exiting the coil is the right temp for the mash. For stepping up the temp in the mash, set those increases on the MLT PID.

Near the end of the mash, adjust the HLT water temp to sparge temp.

Connect BK probe/power to MLT PID, mash out, sparge, boil ad usual.

Do I have the process down for HERMS? If so, is there a way to do the power/probe selection to the two PIDs with switches/knobs rather than physically unplugging and reconnecting? Perhaps one PID controls the probes/power for the MLT and BK and the other handles power for the HLT and receives input from the probes at the HERMS coil and HLT water.

 

[jtkratzer]

My BIL's buddy is a welder and is going to hook me up with that work since I'm tool/skill-less when it comes to welding.

I need to get a hole drilled in each keggle for the heating element, and a hole for the temp probe in the HLT and BK. If I go the HERMS route and eliminate the RIMS tube, I'll need two more holes and threaded fittings in the HLT for the copper coil. I'll need to figure out the temp probe for the HERMS return, something in line right at the exit of the coil. Anything else?