brew-divorce

[JonK331]

i don’t understand why some are bringing up “fair market value” when you need to put it on the market and sell it to get fair market value. Remember, the system is only worth what someone will pay for it. That is why you need to sell it to be fair for all parties.

+1

 

[Jayman931]

ebay? That's no good. What is to stop the guy from bidding to jack up the price so that it appears the thing is worth more than it actually was?

You mean Feebay.....you know how much in fees you would lose...

 

[ReverseApacheMaster]

Some of you people are rather harsh to your friends.

This guy doesn't deserve lose his investment in the equipment any more than the other three deserve to be enriched with an extra portion of ownership -- and the resulting value -- because he wants out.

 

[King of Cascade]

So, who wants out? the pub owner or one of the others? Is the pub owner using this as a pilot system? After reading this thread I think the pub owner should buy out the 4th person if he is using it to do test batches.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/pub-brewery-oportunity-201214/

 

[erikhild59]

Tough situation considering nothing was outlined at the onset of the agreement. I like the idea of mutually finding another party to buy in however as he can negotiate with the 4th member on share price. He/she needs to be approved by the other members however as nobody wants to brew with a ******.

Id consider brewing with a ******, if it could hold 15 lbs of grain!

 

[dobeluvr]

if friends then "there's no buyout, but you still own 25% when you want to start brewing again." why should a friend have to fork over cash because one changes their mind...If he was having hard times, i'd give him the cash before i'd buy him out, cuz thats what friends do

if business, buy him out

 

[weirdboy]

This guy doesn't deserve lose his investment in the equipment any more than the other three deserve to be enriched with an extra portion of ownership -- and the resulting value -- because he wants out.

What? Let's say instead of buying brewing equipment, you go in with your friend on a new car that you plan to share. You both put in $20k and get a brand new Lexus.

You both drive this car on alternating weeks for ten years. So now it's 2021 and your friend says, "hey man I am moving to China, I need you to buy out my $20k in the Lexus". Are you seriously going to give your friend $20k for half of a ten year old car?

 

[weirdboy]

I don’t understand why some are bringing up “fair market value” when you need to put it on the market and sell it to get fair market value. Remember, the system is only worth what someone will pay for it. That is why you need to sell it to be fair for all parties.

Or you could do like all businesses do and use a depreciation schedule.

 

[bottlebomber]

What? Let's say instead of buying brewing equipment, you go in with your friend on a new car that you plan to share. You both put in $20k and get a brand new Lexus.

You both drive this car on alternating weeks for ten years. So now it's 2021 and your friend says, "hey man I am moving to China, I need you to buy out my $20k in the Lexus". Are you seriously going to give your friend $20k for half of a ten year old car?

I just used the car illustration. The depreciation on a car is completely different than on brewing equipment.

And you are getting a WAY better deal on your Lexus's than I am...

 

[weirdboy]

I just used the car illustration. The depreciation on a car is completely different than on brewing equipment.

But it doesn't matter, it still depreciates. Your brewing system is not worth nearly as much after you've used it even once.

 

[Airborneguy]

If this was brought to a small claims court, sans lawyers, hands down the judge would say 1/4 of the depreciated value. Absent extenuating circumstances that the OP has yet to offer, that's the most fair resolution for all involved parties. Could one of the parties produce a lawyer who could present an effective argument different than that? Probably, but that would require more money to pay lawyers.

If he doesn't agree to a depreciated value, I can't think of any other fair options. If he's in dire straits and a real friend, then how about you guys offer him a loan and he gets to keep his share? If one of my good friends was going to leave a partnership because of some short term need, I would rather lend him the money (if this is feasible), then break the partnership completely.

 

[ozzy1038]

i've heard a couple people say "it sure is a lot of money for you to have to cough up". How hard is it really to produce a few hundred dollars? You guys had to come up with several thousand dollars to buy the equipment. And furthermore... If it had ended up being just the 3 of you and not the 4th fellow from the beginning, would you have purchased downsized equipment? Probably not.

+1

 

[bottlebomber]

But it doesn't matter, it still depreciates. Your brewing system is not worth nearly as much after you've used it even once.

Exactly. The fact that its used once, or a thousand times makes no difference on the resale value as long as it doesn't show obvious signs of wear and tear. MLTs don't have odometers.

I agree that if the equipment was in use for some time, and the guy benefitted from using it many times, he should be willing to accept less than what he paid for it.

But we still haven't been told what his circumstances for leaving were, and to me personally that counts for a lot.

 

[ozzy1038]

I like how this isn't removed for being ot.


_

lol

 

[bottlebomber]

If one of my good friends was going to leave a partnership because of some short term need, I would rather lend him the money (if this is feasible), then break the partnership completely.

+1. Money comes and goes, but someone who is willing to put up with an a-hole like me is something special

 

[Airborneguy]

I didn't like you at first either, but you've settled in to "that forum" quite nicely.



We need more info here or its a waste of time. But this really is an interesting situation to discuss.

 

[bottlebomber]

Most people hate me at first, but end up just strongly disliking me

 

[lou2row]

I agree there is not enough info to make a call. And we are hearing one side (and very little of that). Since the OP isn't offering much detail can be telling.

-Who keeps the setup at their place?
-Did some of the owners use it when the person who wants out wasn't involved? Did they use grains and hops that were supposedly to be shared?
-Is one owner the kind of guy that has to make all the decisions? Has this been an issue with the guy wanting out? (been down this road and is why I don't tourney bassfish anymore.)
-25 gallons. How are you splitting it? Is it a kegging system that is kept at one owners place? So he has to g o over to get to drink? Is he the farthest from the joint storage?
- are one or more of the other owners greedy lushes drinking way more than their fourth? Are they giving it away more than their share?

 

[lumpher]

if no pre-nups, then let him know he's welcome to drink some brew whenever he wants. alternately, you could offer to split it in quarters and see if he jumps when the axe starts to split it...

 

[Vance71975]

Give him nothing now except maybe some beer. Same goes for anyone else who drops out. If the day comes that the equipment is ever sold, then everyone gets a percentage of the proceeds. Otherwise, I wouldn't want to be the last one remaining in the ownership "group" and be into this $5,000 when I had intended only $1,250. The first one to leave the group sets the precedent for others that might leave. Consider guy #1 just to be taking a break from brewing for a while......

I Agree with this post, If you all four went in on it with the good faith that you were going to keep brewing, i would NOT give him any money, i would simply explain that the 3 remaining still plan on brewing, he is welcome to come over and help and still get some beer HERE AND THERE, but you will not give him any cash UNLESS everyone else also decides to stop brewing, then the set up will be sold and the proceeds divided 4 ways.That is really the only fair solution. After all HE is the one deciding to quit, not the other 3, so the other three should NOT be expected to refund his investment just because he is flaking out. Just tell him his share is still his share and if he wants to brew he is welcome to, but no cash until everyone quits and the unit is sold. And if you do give him any money, i wouldn't give him over 500 total, due to 2 years of use and abuse on the system. Hell when you buy a brand new car the value drops almost in half just driving it one block from the lot, let along the deprecation over 2 years of use!

Also Yes even brewing systems lose value after being used, i have seen 5k sabco set ups that were used sell for as low as 750 bucks, and as high as 3k, it depends on how much it was used, how well cared for the system is, and the present economy also lowers or raises resale value, and in todays economy that = lowers. Like i said i would offer him 500 IF you feel he is owed a buy out but no more than that after 2 years use in a ****ty economy.

 

[onthekeg]

ebay? That's no good. What is to stop the guy from bidding to jack up the price so that it appears the thing is worth more than it actually was?

I think you are missing the fairness of this option. Ebay can be a very good tool for setting fair market value of an item that will hold up in a court. None of the current owners can complain about the sale price either. If they want it so bad, they can buy it for the reserve price and the remaining guys can build or buy another unit. I'm sure they have ideas for improvement on version 2 anyway.
I never burn a bridge even if there are irreconcilible differences, and by keeping things fair, I sleep better at night.

 

[Airborneguy]

I can actually back that up. My current position at work is to classify crime reports, and we regularly use eBay to judge the value of items that we believe the victim has over-valued. Certain items have set depreciation tables that we refer to, but specifically for electronics, eBay is literally our official source.

 

[TheMan]

I think you are missing the fairness of this option. Ebay can be a very good tool for setting fair market value of an item that will hold up in a court. None of the current owners can complain about the sale price either. If they want it so bad, they can buy it for the reserve price and the remaining guys can build or buy another unit. I'm sure they have ideas for improvement on version 2 anyway.
I never burn a bridge even if there are irreconcilible differences, and by keeping things fair, I sleep better at night.

I understand that, but to understand fair market value of this particular brew rig you would have to post it for sale on ebay. My point was that the fellow leaving the group could just create a profile and bid up the price so that it appears it is more valuable to them than it actually would have been in a fair auction.

Airborneguy pointed out that he uses ebay as a source to designate fair market value by looking at random items online to gauge their value. This method is far more viable since it has no direct correlation to the parties involved.

All of this really depends on the specific situation, which the OP has yet to divulge. Maybe the guy is an honest friend going through tough times or maybe he is a ****** and they had a fallout. If it's the latter, then I would not put it past a person to taint the ebay auction. Creating an account and bidding is not difficult.

 

[onthekeg]

All good points above. It was just a "fair" way in my opinion.
Also, to alleviate the new profile bidding things up issue, whoever sets up the auction can delete anyones bid with less than a certain amount of feedback.

 

[bottlebomber]

Im starting to think this whole thing was a troll thread.

 

[Irrenarzt]

Im starting to think this whole thing was a troll thread.

 

[Spartan1979]

It's interesting that there is so much discussion with so little information. We seem to be more interested in the topic than the OP.

 

[rico567]

Hmmmmm......sounds like one of those "Calling King Solomon" situations. I agree that it was very poor planning not to have some provision for one or more person leaving the brewing group. There seem to be enough clubs & home brewing groups that this should go into a manual somewhere.

The operative things seem to be:

1. He has an investment, he's entitled to something.

2. Each individual participant has only invested $1250 in the rig, and had no explicit understanding that it would ever cost them more.

3. Breaking up the rig and parceling or selling off the parts and then divvying up the money would be equitable, but also idiotic, IMHO.

4. The purpose of building the brew rig was to brew beer......so the individual concerned should (but probably won't) be placated by the offer of $1250 worth of homebrew at, say, $6 / 6.

That doesn't particularly satisfy me, but the best I could come up with.

 

[ReverseApacheMaster]

What? Let's say instead of buying brewing equipment, you go in with your friend on a new car that you plan to share. You both put in $20k and get a brand new Lexus.

You both drive this car on alternating weeks for ten years. So now it's 2021 and your friend says, "hey man I am moving to China, I need you to buy out my $20k in the Lexus". Are you seriously going to give your friend $20k for half of a ten year old car?

I think you're missing my point. My point wasn't that the equipment is worth the same as it was when it was purchased. Obviously, there is some wear and time that will diminish the value. I don't know what the most reasonable way to devise the current value but there surely are some ways it could be done.

In your example, the friend might not be due half of the original purchase price (of the car) but would be due half the present value.

 

[JonK331]

Yeah so it's really lame when someone asks a question, gets a lot of thoughtful responses, and then disappears.