Brew Bucket by SS Brewing Technologies

[Quasinovo1]

I have two of the 7G Ss Brew Buckets with FTSs cooling systems and have been using frozen water bottles in a cooler. Recently I bought a glycol chiller to replace the water bottles...thank goodness!
.......
I need to apply positive CO2 pressure in the headspace to offset the negative pressure created in the fermenter. What if I apply light CO2 pressure thru the BO tube, then clamp off the tube while crashing? Or...fill a bread bag with CO2 (Mongoose33 good idea), tape it to the BO tube and use that for a bladder to draw from? Just concerned that O2 will get in the fermenter if this is not done carefully.

Are there other techniques I may be overlooking? Thanks!!

I have a 14G SS Brew Bucket and I always apply a slight positive CO2 pressure when cold crashing. I simply remove the BO tube from the elbow and connect a hose that adapts to a hose from a CO2 regulator. I set the CO2 regulator just above 0 PSI but under 2 PSI and let it crash. I have never had a problem with this technique. Obviously, the CO2 reg has to be set very low or you'll blow the lid off of the brew bucket. I'm travelling at the moment and don't remember the exact dimensions of the lid for the 14G bucket, but at 2 PSI you are in the ballpark of 500 lbs of pressure on the lid. It could be real exciting if you experience regulator creep ;-)

 

[milldoggy]

Use a propane reg to step down your pressure. I used it, but my moonshine conical never seals right and I lost a 15 lb tanks. I just keg and crash now.

 

[Morrey]

I learned a great deal from this thread and I appreciate the good feedback.

As RevKev said, daisy chaining Mason jars provides the volume needed to prevent suck-back. Jay at NorCal solutions has the very item(s) to solve this with Mason jar lids w/nipples and grommets to make a very easy system. I'll use 2 one half gallon jars with his lids so I'll end up with one gallon (minus starsan) of volume displacement for the fermenter to draw from during the crash.

Glad I made this post! Thanks!!

 

[Peruvian802]

Very nice demonstration of thermal compression, daisy chain with a very large Mason jar will solve just about any issue. Throughout fermentation there will be residual CO2 that'll be sucked from the first jar and not the Star San in the second.

I realize that it would still introduce oxygen, but wouldn't an S type bubbler eliminate the compression more easily?

 

[RevKev]

I realize that it would still introduce oxygen, but wouldn't an S type bubbler eliminate the compression more easily?

I would say that they are one in the same. Only just a very large airlock with an airlock on the final jar. There will be a surplus of CO2 withing the jar connected to fermenter and any natural air pulled within the airlock would be sanitized in the star san

This approach will suck any liquid into the second jar not into the fermenter

View attachment 1500491576371.jpg

 

[dyqik]

Importantly, it's CO2 that's sucked from the first jar to the fermenter, and it's replaced in the first jar with liquid sucked from the second jar. The second jar takes in air, but it can't get to the beer until all the liquid is pulled into the first jar.

With an S-type airlock, as soon as all the liquid is pulled into the first chamber, air is pulled through and into the fermenter.

 

[Morrey]

Anti-suction issue solved thanks to RevKev, TallDan and Jay at NorCal Solutions. As RevKev pointed out with his drawing, my 2 half gallon jars provide close to 1 gallon of CO2 reserve contained/trapped during active fermentation. Excess CO2 bubbles thru the S type airlock...or a 3 piece works too.

When suction begins during crashing, the starsan in jar 2 eventually draws back into jar 1 after all CO2 is drawn back into fermenter. This CO2 reserve should be adequate to displace the suction so fermenter is not damaged. If additional displacement is needed, the air drawn in thru the S airlock is scrubbed by the starsan drawn into jar 1. Works like a champ in my tests so far.

JayBird at NorCal sells these lids that replace the standard flat part of the lid on your jars. Lid one is a 4 nipple lid with 1/2" tubing nipples on the top and bottom. Lid 2 has two nipples and a grommet for a standard airlock. The two lids were around $35 together and they are exceptional quality. It may sound expensive but I ruined a batch of beer with suck-back so I figure that loss was about that amount anyway. Was worth it to me for peace of mind.

 

[Geneticjim]

I have a silly question. I use a fast ferment fermentator. Does anyone have issues with the brew sitting on the yeast cake for an extended period of time with one of these brew buckets?

 

[skraeling]

I have a silly question. I use a fast ferment fermentator. Does anyone have issues with the brew sitting on the yeast cake for an extended period of time with one of these brew buckets?

define extended

 

[Geneticjim]

define extended

10 days or so.
With the fast ferment I can pull the bulb out and empty it.

 

[skraeling]

10 days or so.
With the fast ferment I can pull the bulb out and empty it.

10 days is really nothing. I wouldnt sweat that.

 

[k1ngl1ves]

Anti-suction issue solved thanks to RevKev, TallDan and Jay at NorCal Solutions. As RevKev pointed out with his drawing, my 2 half gallon jars provide close to 1 gallon of CO2 reserve contained/trapped during active fermentation. Excess CO2 bubbles thru the S type airlock...or a 3 piece works too.

When suction begins during crashing, the starsan in jar 2 eventually draws back into jar 1 after all CO2 is drawn back into fermenter. This CO2 reserve should be adequate to displace the suction so fermenter is not damaged. If additional displacement is needed, the air drawn in thru the S airlock is scrubbed by the starsan drawn into jar 1. Works like a champ in my tests so far.

JayBird at NorCal sells these lids that replace the standard flat part of the lid on your jars. Lid one is a 4 nipple lid with 1/2" tubing nipples on the top and bottom. Lid 2 has two nipples and a grommet for a standard airlock. The two lids were around $35 together and they are exceptional quality. It may sound expensive but I ruined a batch of beer with suck-back so I figure that loss was about that amount anyway. Was worth it to me for peace of mind.

Or $2 for a punching balloon at a party store. Fill the balloon with co2. Zip tie it to the opening on a carboy or a fitting on a brew bucket.

 

[Morrey]

Or $2 for a punching balloon at a party store. Fill the balloon with co2. Zip tie it to the opening on a carboy or a fitting on a brew bucket.

Love it!!!!

 

[Geneticjim]

10 days is really nothing. I wouldnt sweat that.

Thanks!

 

[jammin]

Or $2 for a punching balloon at a party store. Fill the balloon with co2. Zip tie it to the opening on a carboy or a fitting on a brew bucket.

Damn good idea.

How much "shrinkage" do you get?

 

[k1ngl1ves]

Damn good idea.

How much "shrinkage" do you get?

It shrinks down to a little smaller than a volleyball after a few days. I'd rather have too much co2 in the balloon than too little.


Someone posted a similar setup on this website before. I just simplified it by using a big ol' punching balloon instead.


The downside to this method is I can only cold crash 1 carboy at a time due to the size of my fridge. Damn balloon takes up a ton of room!

 

[SpeedYellow]

Wow I can't believe you guys are worried about the suck-back air. Kind of a non-issue, since many low-effort solutions work fine, e.g.:

1) Simply use an S-bubble (one-piece) airlock, then replace it with a blowoff hose later if needed (rarely).
2) Fashion a blowoff hose bent up in the shape of an S-bubbler airlock, filled with water or starsan.
3) Cut a little hole in an empty plastic jug and insert the blowoff hose. No need to submerge the blow-off hose.

 

[Schlenkerla]

Wow I can't believe you guys are worried about the suck-back air. Kind of a non-issue, since many low-effort solutions work fine, e.g.:

1) Simply use an S-bubble (one-piece) airlock, then replace it with a blowoff hose later if needed (rarely).
2) Fashion a blowoff hose bent up in the shape of an S-bubbler airlock, filled with water or starsan.
3) Cut a little hole in an empty plastic jug and insert the blowoff hose. No need to submerge the blow-off hose.

Exactly. Fill this partially with sanitiser and zip-tie it and attach. Its like a s-air lock with multiple S's...

I would have never considered it even to be an issue. There's an overwhelming blanket of CO2 on top of the beer.

 

[RevKev]

To the above posts, its not suck back air that is the problem. It is the facts that:

1) If a airlock is still attached there will be a vacuum created by cold crashing being detrimental to the fermentor and sucking back any liquid within airlock

2) If a blow off tube is attached and not a large enough reserve of air or carbon dioxide from either a gas tank or byproduct of fermentation is present sanitizing solution will be sucked within the fermenter and after that air will also be sucked within

3) Insertion of a blow off hose into an empty jug during fermentation is alright as there is a residual flow out of gas as a byproduct of fermentation but when producing heavily hopped NE IPAs air is the enemy, when cold crashing a large volume of atmospheric air will be sucked within the fermenter and will start the oxidative processes of iso-acids and other oils compromising the protective CO2 blanket

All of those are great ideas for air-lock substitutes

 

[Schlenkerla]

To the above posts, its not suck back air that is the problem. It is the facts that:

1) If a airlock is still attached there will be a vacuum created by cold crashing being detrimental to the fermentor and sucking back any liquid within airlock

2) If a blow off tube is attached and not a large enough reserve of air or carbon dioxide from either a gas tank or byproduct of fermentation is present sanitizing solution will be sucked within the fermenter and after that air will also be sucked within

3) Insertion of a blow off hose into an empty jug during fermentation is alright as there is a residual flow out of gas as a byproduct of fermentation but when producing heavily hopped NE IPAs air is the enemy, when cold crashing a large volume of atmospheric air will be sucked within the fermenter and will start the oxidative processes of iso-acids and other oils compromising the protective CO2 blanket

All of those are great ideas for air-lock substitutes

In that case are they draining the fermentor under pressure with C02? If not, this is all for nothing. The receiving vessel would need to be purged of air too.

As for the crash, CO2 is heavier than air. The egress of air would be fairly slow and laminar. As slow as the temp drop. I would still expect a layer of CO2, below the atmospheric layer of air.

In the old days we didn't worry about that. Most people can't even detect a 5 IBU difference.

Also, its not a problem if you don't crash! Let it settle out on its own or hit it with gelatin.

 

[RevKev]

In that case are they draining the fermentor under pressure with C02? If not, this is all for nothing. The receiving vessel would need to be purged of air too.

As for the crash, CO2 is heavier than air. The egress of air would be fairly slow and laminar. As slow as the temp drop. I would still expect a layer of CO2, below the atmospheric layer of air.

In the old days we didn't worry about that. Most people can't detect a 5 IBU difference.

Also, its not a problem if you don't crash! Let it settle out on its own.

In my efforts to mitigate air exposure I try to do as close to a closed transfer as possible. Purging the racking cane and tubing and keg with carbon dioxide prior to doing a pressurized transfer. I agree that people can't taste the difference in IBU, and IMO theoretical vs actual IBU is a load of poo and never the same.

And yes giving it a few days within the keg would solve this issue, but some people like to crash and I'm not quite convinced that during a crash that the flow would be laminar. When producing a temperature differential of 30 degrees (assuming ale temp of 66 and capacity to get nearly to FP with glycol) within a short time period I would think the velocity of air relative to the headspace would be somewhat turbulent and there will not be a homogeneous layer of CO2. But thats just my thoughts I'm not a physicist

+1 for gelatin though I don't have the room or capacity to crash my conical

 

[Schlenkerla]

#RevKev,

I was a engineer for a national window company. We used to fill insulated glass windows with argon. The typical window was 29"x35" with 3/8 inch air space.

The argon filled this space in 12 seconds. That fill rate is turbulent. We would then hit it with Spark-like argon tester. It would be low in argon for the first 20-30 minutes or so after filling and sealing it up. Roughly 20-30% argon.

Argon is like CO2 in the fact it's heavier than air. We'd check them after 30 minutes at the middle of the unit and it would be close to 80% argon (minimum for argon filled). It varied by size of unit. After an hour it would definately be 90% or better. Its settled completely out in 60 minutes. Only the top inch of glass unit had air in it.

As for a fermenter, with a laminar fill rate over several hours. I don't really think it would be contaminated with air at the fluid level.

The size of the head space would make a difference. Smaller being better because air is compressible whereas fluid is not. A full fermenter would be best.

The rate of fill in this case would be slower than a cask breather. That's pretty laminar IMHO.

 

[dyqik]

And yes giving it a few days within the keg would solve this issue, but some people like to crash and I'm not quite convinced that during a crash that the flow would be laminar. When producing a temperature differential of 30 degrees (assuming ale temp of 66 and capacity to get nearly to FP with glycol) within a short time period I would think the velocity of air relative to the headspace would be somewhat turbulent and there will not be a homogeneous layer of CO2. But thats just my thoughts I'm not a physicist

I am a physicist. Even with completely still gases initially in layers, the diffusion constant of oxygen in CO2 is such that sufficient oxygen to cause mild oxidation will get to your beer in a few minutes of the vessel being open or air being allowed in to the vessel.

 

[Schlenkerla]

I am a physicist. Even with completely still gases initially in layers, the diffusion constant of oxygen in CO2 is such that sufficient oxygen to cause mild oxidation will get to your beer in a few minutes of the vessel being open or air being allowed in to the vessel.

That also happens when I pour the beer in the glass.

It also seems like an irrational fear like claustrophobia.

 

[triethylborane]

That also happens when I pour the beer in the glass.

It also seems like an irrational fear like claustrophobia.

You do not have a CO2 shielding gas array for your bottles and taps? You do not pump your digestive tract with CO2 to ensure no oxidation until the beer is metabolized (CO2 will shut down the tract, but its worth it to combat any oxidation)? Sad.

 

[SpeedYellow]

To run some numbers: cold crashing (65f to 35f) will cause approx. 12 fl. oz. of air to get sucked in, assuming your 7 gal fermenter has 5.5 gal beer in it. That consists of: (a) thermal contraction of the co2 airspace of 11 oz, and (b) 1 oz contraction of the beer.

In other words, 6% of your CO2 airspace will be diluted with air. Each of us can decide if that's worth worrying about. At near-freezing, I can't expect much oxidation is happening, especially since it only sees that for a short time (kegging is imminent).

 

[RevKev]

To run some numbers: cold crashing (65f to 35f) will cause approx. 12 fl. oz. of air to get sucked in, assuming your 7 gal fermenter has 5.5 gal beer in it. That consists of: (a) thermal contraction of the co2 airspace of 11 oz, and (b) 1 oz contraction of the beer.

In other words, 6% of your CO2 airspace will be diluted with air. Each of us can decide if that's worth worrying about. At near-freezing, I can't expect much oxidation is happening, especially since it only sees that for a short time (kegging is imminent).

I did just do the calculations since I wanted to check your numbers and maybe I'll use this example when I'm teaching the combined gas law for CHE101 haha

I arrived at your numbers also. The interpretation of those figures will be subjective.. and not sure how long everyone crashes for but I'm gunna assume at least 12 is not 24hrs? A day of crashing and when you push beer into the keg yeah short time, but unless anyone knows how long it takes for oxidation of the beer to occur, yes at 35°F it will be slower than room temp but I am assuming that it is instantaneous upon contact with oxygen, I'll just mitigate the risk and have a more complex airlock with a CO2 reservoir.

Theoretically you can purge a keg with the residual carbon dioxide produced as a byproduct if you link a blowoff into the gas in port. There is a thread on here that has the theory behind it. Why not utilize the free carbon dioxide to your full benefit?

 

[Carlscan26]

I don't see the need for the S-airlock on the second jar.

 

[havox07]

Has anyone replaced the ball valve with something more sanitary? I wanted to be able to utilize the valve for sampling as well.

 

[brewstergalVT]

I use it for sampling after sampling I just spray up into the opening with star san (I have a spray bottle that can spray upside down) and then I have a cap I put on the sampling port that I fill with star san. Works great. Without a cap I agree, not good enough to just spray it and let it be. The cap is the top of a cheap disposable 3cc transfer pipette that I just cut off.

 

[Kealia]

I use the spigot to pull a gravity sample and also shoot StarSan into it after I am done. I ferment in a closed mini chest freezer so I don't worry about things getting up in there.
If I did, I would have no issues using a StarSan soaked paper towel stuffed in after I pulled the sample.

 

[radwizard]

I'm wanting to set up my buckets for pressurized transfers. I saw on the ss brewtech site they have some parts available that include a PRV for co2 transfers.

I was just planning on pulling my blow off tube out, and hooking it up to to co2 directly, and setting to 1 psi. It looked to me that people had been doing this before ss brewtech got behind the idea of ss buckets doing pressurized transfers. I believe the PRV is set at like 2.5 psi on their fitting.

I just thought the co2 transfer would be easier to do then gravity feeding the keg. I was planning on pushing into the out line on the keg, like all the cool kids are doing.

How are you guys doing you transfers? Do you feel the need for a PRV and mod on the bucket to accomplish this?
Thanks!

 

[Morrey]

I'm wanting to set up my buckets for pressurized transfers. I saw on the ss brewtech site they have some parts available that include a PRV for co2 transfers.

I was just planning on pulling my blow off tube out, and hooking it up to to co2 directly, and setting to 1 psi. It looked to me that people had been doing this before ss brewtech got behind the idea of ss buckets doing pressurized transfers. I believe the PRV is set at like 2.5 psi on their fitting.

I just thought the co2 transfer would be easier to do then gravity feeding the keg. I was planning on pushing into the out line on the keg, like all the cool kids are doing.

How are you guys doing you transfers? Do you feel the need for a PRV and mod on the bucket to accomplish this?
Thanks!

I do it this way all the time^^^^. I have a 90 elbow barb on my brew bucket(s) lid for BO tube, so I clamp off that tube to seal out O2 until I plug in the CO2 line, pull it out of star san jug and connect my CO2 line with a 3/8" straight barb. Unclamp tube and keep CO2 low at 1 or 2 psi as this lid is not designed for much pressure. Push beer from ball valve into purged and sanitized keg.

I think Ss BT is covering their butts in case someone pumps the bucket too high and it pops the lid off and hurts someone. Then they can say we sell PRV's to prevent this..of course this also gives them another item to sell. Just keep under 2# of psi and all is good.

Pressure transfers go more quickly than gravity for sure, but my main goal for this is to keep my beer as O2 free as possible during transfers.

 

[radwizard]

I do it this way all the time^^^^. I have a 90 elbow barb on my brew bucket(s) lid for BO tube, so I clamp off that tube to seal out O2 until I plug in the CO2 line, pull it out of star san jug and connect my CO2 line with a 3/8" straight barb. Unclamp tube and keep CO2 low at 1 or 2 psi as this lid is not designed for much pressure. Push beer from ball valve into purged and sanitized keg.

I think Ss BT is covering their butts in case someone pumps the bucket too high and it pops the lid off and hurts someone. Then they can say we sell PRV's to prevent this..of course this also gives them another item to sell. Just keep under 2# of psi and all is good.

Pressure transfers go more quickly than gravity for sure, but my main goal for this is to keep my beer as O2 free as possible during transfers.

Thanks man, That is what I was thinking/hoping. Yeah, I am excited to give it a whirl. I have not really had any O2 problems so far(that have been noticed), but I am curious to see if I can note any improvements in my hoppy beers. I have been having to move my fermenter around to accommodate the gravity feed. I have to move it, and them let it settle before transfering to the keg. All this when I have a bottle of co2 sitting right next to the thing.

Hopefully I also get some flavor improvements as well. That would be a major bonus. Thanks again!

 

[Morrey]

Thanks man, That is what I was thinking/hoping. Yeah, I am excited to give it a whirl. I have not really had any O2 problems so far(that have been noticed), but I am curious to see if I can note any improvements in my hoppy beers. I have been having to move my fermenter around to accommodate the gravity feed. I have to move it, and them let it settle before transfering to the keg. All this when I have a bottle of co2 sitting right next to the thing.

Hopefully I also get some flavor improvements as well. That would be a major bonus. Thanks again!

Yeah, for sure CO2 pressure transfers are a win-win in all regards as you mentioned.

For years I just opened the fermenter lid, stuck in an auto siphon racking tube and pumped into an open keg. Honestly I never considered how much damage I was doing to my beers this way. If you burned thru a keg in a weekend, no biggie. But if that keg lingers for a month or three like mine, I noted a slow dulling or lack of vibrancy. Of course this loss of vibrancy comes from a variety of factors, but for sure oxidation adds to the list. Plus, as we are discussing, elimination of O2 during transfers is fairly simple and easy to accomplish.

 

[radwizard]

Yeah, for sure CO2 pressure transfers are a win-win in all regards as you mentioned.

For years I just opened the fermenter lid, stuck in an auto siphon racking tube and pumped into an open keg. Honestly I never considered how much damage I was doing to my beers this way. If you burned thru a keg in a weekend, no biggie. But if that keg lingers for a month or three like mine, I noted a slow dulling or lack of vibrancy. Of course this loss of vibrancy comes from a variety of factors, but for sure oxidation adds to the list. Plus, as we are discussing, elimination of O2 during transfers is fairly simple and easy to accomplish.

Good stuff, thanks. I just added another tap in my keezer (from 2 to 3), so the what you are saying might make a significant difference here pretty soon. I usually blow through my hoppy beers pretty quick, so maybe that's why I have not had previous issues. Cheers!

 

[Morrey]

Good stuff, thanks. I just added another tap in my keezer (from 2 to 3), so the what you are saying might make a significant difference here pretty soon. I usually blow through my hoppy beers pretty quick, so maybe that's why I have not had previous issues. Cheers!

For sure control of O2 exposure is in our best interest as brewers. I typically have 10 kegged beers (capacity) in my pipeline at various stages, so it may be several months until some of mine kick. NE IPA's don't last that long...lol.

 

[Kealia]

I love the idea of a pressurized/closed transfer - thanks for the ideas.
I also like the idea of using the 90-degree barb for the blowoff tube as I currently use a rubber stopper and the big piece of a 3 piece arilock with a hose covering the vent and running to my blowoff jar. The issue is that the tubing using kinks a bit after coming straight up/off the airlock so I love this way to fix it.

Questions:
1) Does anybody know the size of that 90-degree part so I can either pick it up at my hardware store or find it much cheaper online? $17.95 seems ridiculous for that part.
2) What type of hose clamp do you use after you are done with the blowoff but before you push CO2 through?

I suppose I could remove the elbow joint and replace with an airlock but that would be counter to my goal of reducing oxygen exposure. This would be used during the cold crash to avoid suckback from the blowoff jar.

 

[h22lude]

I just bought a brew bucket and can't wait to use it for closed system transfer. I'm going to put a 1.5" TC fitting on top and close the small hole the lid comes with. When fermenting I am going to use a TC to barb fitting. When transferring I'm going to swap the barb out for a TC fitting that has a gas post and PRV (http://www.norcalbrewingsolutions.c...re-Relief-Valve-1.5-Inch-Tri-Clover.html#2053).

I wish they made a TC lid with 1.5" and not 3".

 

[Morrey]

I love the idea of a pressurized/closed transfer - thanks for the ideas.
I also like the idea of using the 90-degree barb for the blowoff tube as I currently use a rubber stopper and the big piece of a 3 piece arilock with a hose covering the vent and running to my blowoff jar. The issue is that the tubing using kinks a bit after coming straight up/off the airlock so I love this way to fix it.

Questions:
1) Does anybody know the size of that 90-degree part so I can either pick it up at my hardware store or find it much cheaper online? $17.95 seems ridiculous for that part.
2) What type of hose clamp do you use after you are done with the blowoff but before you push CO2 through?

I suppose I could remove the elbow joint and replace with an airlock but that would be counter to my goal of reducing oxygen exposure. This would be used during the cold crash to avoid suckback from the blowoff jar.

On my Ss brew bucket lids, I bought the 90 degree barbs from Ss BrewTech. The barb is 1/2" diameter and the hole for the threaded portion of the fitting is 17mm. You may find it cheaper, but remember it is engineered for this application to seal and fit correctly.

I use a length of 3/8" silicone tubing and it is flexible enough to fit on the 1/2" barb and hold tightly w/o a clamp. I dangle it into a jug of star san for BO. When I am ready to pressure transfer to keg, I clamp off the tube before taking all the way out of the star san with a pair of smooth jaw hemostats (no damage to hose) to prevent O2 intrusion. From my regulator I run a CO2 hose that I have forced on a 3/8" brass barb to barb connector (Home Depot) and simply fit the two lines together. Apply 1.5psi from your CO2 tank and transfer to keg. When done just pull the two lines apart and I leave the brass barb in the CO2 line for next use. I have a dedicated CO2 tank and regulator set up for transfers so I just leave the barb in the CO2 line as is.

Make sure your keg is purged of O2 to minimize oxidation.