Brett Infection on my ESB... Does this mean?

[jekeane]

are you using a fermentation chamber? I would start there, then move to where you store your buckets. Your racking cane and hose would have certainly come in contact with all the buckets as well.

 

[theck]

are you using a fermentation chamber? I would start there, then move to where you store your buckets.

I'm not using a chamber... I'll clean the crap out of my basement, add glass carboys and slowly build it back up. Hopefully it's just a summer thing that will pass. I got back into brewing a year and half ago and before that I didn't for 15 years... I brewed a lot back then even in some really bad conditions like dirt basements with slugs in an apartment we rented and NEVER had an issue with brett, or at least one that I knew of. I clean and sanitize as much as I can and still get it, just don't understand... ha...

 

[theck]

are you using a fermentation chamber? I would start there, then move to where you store your buckets. Your racking cane and hose would have certainly come in contact with all the buckets as well.

I haven't used the thief or cane with the saison and it's still infected, first time I opened it was tonight when going to dry hop the ale. Blah. Maybe it's in the buckets from the cane but I spray those down with starsan after a oxiclean bath after each use...

 

[eastoak]

Well... I'm done for a while until I get some glass carboys, think I'm going to make the switch over to glass and hopefully it will help with this issue. My saison hasn't been opened until just today and it had the infection so something is in the buckets or air ?

if those fermentors had been glass you could still have found 2 infected beers. the fermentor material has very little to do with getting an infection. it kind of feels intuitive to get rid of all of the gear for new stuff but it is no guarantee.

 

[theck]

if those fermentors had been glass you could still have found 2 infected beers. the fermentor material has very little to do with getting an infection. it kind of feels intuitive to get rid of all of the gear for new stuff but it is no guarantee.

I was reading that plastic is more susceptible to infections and once it's in it's very hard to remove.

 

[bestbuds]

Are you using a counterflow or plate chiller?

 

[theck]

Are you using a counterflow or plate chiller?

Immersion chiller... I spray it with starsan before using when using the SS hop spider or boil 15-20 mins when not.

Not sure if it's typical but the infection seems to come on after reg fermentation. I did move the buckets but no more than I have done in the past with no ill effects.

 

[theck]

Only thing I can think of that would be an issue is the airlocks. I use distilled water in those with some.Camden tablets crushed in it. Sometimes there is suck back etc but maybe the water is bad?

 

[theck]

Blah

 

[theck]

Would gnats carry this? My kid left a apple core a month ago in a trash can in the garage and ever since I can't get rid of the buggers from the house to the garage keezer. I put out apple cider vinegar with dish soap and have caught quite a few of them but just now when I was in the basement moving the infected beers to the back room a gnat jumped off one of the airlocks. Wondering if they are maybe getting into the bucket?

Think at this point I'll be buying a new auto siphon, a 6.5 glass carboy, new airlock... etc. Just one setup and try again. If all goes well I'll buy more till I get back to 4.

I'll also serve the 4 buckets I have on the same tap, afterwards replacing the line and boiling the parts.

And clean the crap out of my basement.

I do crush my grain by the buckets and hear that might be an issue as well?

Thanks for your help everyone!

 

[Ilan34]

I doubt it's the gnats causing that type of infection, although they do have their own issues.

My bet would be on the grain crushing. In any case, I hope you get it figured out. I had three batches in a row that developed infections in the bottle and it's super frustrating. Pbw'd everything and replaced all plastic components. I haven't had an issue since (knock on wood).

 

[eastoak]

I was reading that plastic is more susceptible to infections and once it's in it's very hard to remove.

this is not true. on these forums you will find tons of infections in glass carboys and stainless conicals. a thread like this can go on for a long time and the exact cause of an infection not be found just through guesses. good sanitation practices will avoid these issues regardless the fermentor material.

 

[Talgrath]

Immersion chiller... I spray it with starsan before using when using the SS hop spider or boil 15-20 mins when not.

Not sure if it's typical but the infection seems to come on after reg fermentation. I did move the buckets but no more than I have done in the past with no ill effects.

Let's try this, let's run through your entire process of sanitization, cooling, etc, include info like where you are storing the beer, what is nearby and all that sort of info. I've already found one immediate flaw with your sanitization process, starsan (and most/all no rinse sanitizers) require you to immerse your equipment in it for at least one full minute (read the instructions and you'll see exactly what I'm talking about); anything less means you haven't properly sanitized your equipment. A quick spray of sanitizer won't work well enough, nor will a boil.

 

[theck]

this is not true. on these forums you will find tons of infections in glass carboys and stainless conicals. a thread like this can go on for a long time and the exact cause of an infection not be found just through guesses. good sanitation practices will avoid these issues regardless the fermentor material.

I thought it was due to plastic and scratches... it's odd I am getting this because I spray everything possible with starsan, before and after, and been more anal about it recently than in the past. Back when I started I didn't even sanitize things really just cleaned them with soap and water. Wondering if maybe my starsan is too old and not good now? It's ph is still under 3 yet cloudy, which is ok. Guess it can be everything and anything at this point ha... cleaning and trying again is the only way to bust it. I'll move to glass anyhow, I've been meaning to regardless... I only open the buckets to check how it's going and sometimes get the gravity, but if I can see though it then no need to even bother opening until I need to when I keg. Most of my beers stay in the fermenter for 4-10 weeks depending on style.

 

[theck]

Let's try this, let's run through your entire process of sanitization, cooling, etc, include info like where you are storing the beer, what is nearby and all that sort of info. I've already found one immediate flaw with your sanitization process, starsan (and most/all no rinse sanitizers) require you to immerse your equipment in it for at least one full minute (read the instructions and you'll see exactly what I'm talking about); anything less means you haven't properly sanitized your equipment. A quick spray of sanitizer won't work well enough, nor will a boil.

I have a very good spray bottle, it's coats it completely and then some and I'm not shy about using it? I do soak when kegging. so...

Grain, fermenters, equipment in the same room in basement... I crush same area as well. All grain is in buckets with gamma lids. The only thing I leave outside is the keggle and IC.

Process:
1. Fill alum turkey fryer with mash water
2. crush grain in fermenter bucket
3. add water to tun, then grain, stir etc...
4. Fill alum turkey fryer with sparge water and wait 60 mins, drain tun
5. add sparge water
6. take bucket outside and pour into keggle, usually 2+ gallons
7. drain tun again... take outside pour, bring to boil. Usually keep stove in garage just behind the garage door in case I need to close it.
8. add hops, etc... 60 mins.
9. 15 mins before finish, spray off IC and get it ready... add ice/water to bucket for first coil feeding to the IC. Wash and spray out bucket with starsan. Spray hose from keggle to bucket with starsan. Starsan off lid and airlock in basement. starsan what my yeast is in, either starter flask or sometimes I pitch right from collected jars from previous brews.
9. remove SS hop spider
10. add IC, turn on water hose, cool to 65...
11. carry down to basement, spray lid again, spoon (if using slurry) and yeast container, add yeast, cover with lid... add little crushed campden into airlock, add distilled water into airlock after.
12. let it sit for 2-3 weeks
13. spray off lid, hands, arms, etc... open check if all good close... if I do a gravity reading spray inside and out of the thief then put into bucket then put lid back on... usually drink what's in thief and dump rest if any... clean and then starsan it when done.
14. 4-10 weeks when keg kicks on keezer I fill keg with starsan, shake, spray off auto siphon in and out, and siphon a bit back into keg. Usually that's by the dryer which is in another room. Empty keg of starsan.
15. get bucket of beer, put on top of dryer and siphon it into the keg.
16. put keg into keezer, co2 on check for leaks... etc....
17. starsan spoon, mason jars and lids, usually 2 quarts... spoon yeast into jars, close lids, put into fridge.
18. green scrub out the bucket, siphon, airlock, lid, etc clean, spray in/out with starsan, put upside down on ground and couple days put it back on shelf until next time.

My usual process ha...

 

[poptarts]

yea i defiantly wouldn't keep grain in my fermentation bucket.

 

[theck]

yea i defiantly wouldn't keep grain in my fermentation bucket.

I just crush it into it then pour into the tun, clean with green scrubby and sanitize. Never had an issue till now? Maybe I got lucky? ha... easy to not do that any longer, next brew I'll not do it.

 

[theck]

Seems like as soon as I open the bucket for the check it becomes infected. The saison and pale are 2 weeks apart in brewing schedule but both had the same look with the infection. I opened both at the same time.

 

[Talgrath]

I have a very good spray bottle, it's coats it completely and then some and I'm not shy about using it? I do soak when kegging. so...

Grain, fermenters, equipment in the same room in basement... I crush same area as well. All grain is in buckets with gamma lids. The only thing I leave outside is the keggle and IC.

Process:
1. Fill alum turkey fryer with mash water
2. crush grain in fermenter bucket
3. add water to tun, then grain, stir etc...
4. Fill alum turkey fryer with sparge water and wait 60 mins, drain tun
5. add sparge water
6. take bucket outside and pour into keggle, usually 2+ gallons
7. drain tun again... take outside pour, bring to boil. Usually keep stove in garage just behind the garage door in case I need to close it.
8. add hops, etc... 60 mins.
9. 15 mins before finish, spray off IC and get it ready... add ice/water to bucket for first coil feeding to the IC. Wash and spray out bucket with starsan. Spray hose from keggle to bucket with starsan. Starsan off lid and airlock in basement. starsan what my yeast is in, either starter flask or sometimes I pitch right from collected jars from previous brews.
9. remove SS hop spider
10. add IC, turn on water hose, cool to 65...
11. carry down to basement, spray lid again, spoon (if using slurry) and yeast container, add yeast, cover with lid... add little crushed campden into airlock, add distilled water into airlock after.
12. let it sit for 2-3 weeks
13. spray off lid, hands, arms, etc... open check if all good close... if I do a gravity reading spray inside and out of the thief then put into bucket then put lid back on... usually drink what's in thief and dump rest if any... clean and then starsan it when done.
14. 4-10 weeks when keg kicks on keezer I fill keg with starsan, shake, spray off auto siphon in and out, and siphon a bit back into keg. Usually that's by the dryer which is in another room. Empty keg of starsan.
15. get bucket of beer, put on top of dryer and siphon it into the keg.
16. put keg into keezer, co2 on check for leaks... etc....
17. starsan spoon, mason jars and lids, usually 2 quarts... spoon yeast into jars, close lids, put into fridge.
18. green scrub out the bucket, siphon, airlock, lid, etc clean, spray in/out with starsan, put upside down on ground and couple days put it back on shelf until next time.

My usual process ha...

So yeah, there's your problem, you're just spraying the equipment. Everything that touches your wort or grain must be soaked for a minimum of one minute and preferably two minutes in sanitizer and then dried out as per the instructions on the sanitizer.

As far as plastic equipment, as long as you properly clean and sanitize the equipment it shouldn't be a problem. Anything that can scratch any of your equipment should not be used on it. For carboys or buckets that means soaking it in oxygen cleaner or brewery equipment cleaner and only rinsing it; for your metal equipment no metal pads or anything like that. Glass, metal or plastic can all become scratched and be a source of infection, it's just a matter of how you clean the equipment.

 

[theck]

I've been spraying for the last 30 beers why is it surfacing now?

 

[poptarts]

how long have you been milling grain into your fermentation buckets?

 

[ram5ey]

I don't know but the Brett saison sounds delicious.

 

[theck]

how long have you been milling grain into your fermentation buckets?

Since I went all grain... About 20 beers I would guess. I have been doing 1 in the keezer one in the bucket for the last maybe 10. I started keeping better records now on google cal. I did about 10 when I got back into brewing then went to all grain. Couple buckets are 15 years old when I started back up... those got replaced. When I sanitized back then we used a iodine soak. The local shop got me on starsan, told me to mix 5 gallons... Save in a keg, put into spray bottle when empty. I just pour to keg for example when I soak. They have been spraying for many years without issue, ??

 

[poptarts]

its probably lacto not bret

 

[theck]

Showed the picture to a local shop guy he was pretty certain it was Brett... Guess there is really no certain way to tell but what is the cause of a lacto infection? Doesn't that have more of a flatness, less bubbly?

 

[theck]

Racking the pale tomorrow and kegging. Do all 4, if the 4th is infected, on the same tap. Just make it all sour stuff and buy new when I can get some cash.

 

[beeber]

I have committed a high crime of brewing - I have brewed a standard beer in a plastic fermentor that was previously used to ferment a lambic. And it came out clean. No bull!

I know that there is a general conception out there that equipment that has come into contact with infected beer is contaminated, but I am not so sure. I think proper cleaning should be sufficient. I had an apple cider go south on me with some unknown, unidentifiable, non-gunk-forming bug and I merely cleaned with Oxyfree and I was good to go. Never had a problem since.

Also, keep the brett infected ESB! Historically these pub beers were riddled with the stuff (also unintentionally). Brett itself merely adds a subtle tartness, not really that mouth puckering sour that you might be thinking of.

 

[theck]

Keg or bottle just curious

 

[theck]

Ok something interesting I added an oz of hops and one Campden crushed and sprinkled on top just to see what would happen. Check out the before and after. I read that IPAs where hop'd up in order to avoid spoilage, I'm not sure if I killed anything or helped but interesting that the infection was held at bay, or at least visually.

 

[Talgrath]

I've been spraying for the last 30 beers why is it surfacing now?

We're getting into the hotter temperatures in most parts of the country, which tends to make bacteria more active. It's also possible there was a change in the environment in which you're boiling or chilling the wort that isn't obvious; seasonal changes in air movement or simply a particular bacteria being "in season". Maybe you were simply lucky with your last thirty batches. What I will say is this: always follow sanitizer instructions or you're going to get problems like this, check your equipment for scratches and if it is scratched throw it out, avoiding cleaning with anything that might scratch your equipment (my rule of thumb is I don't use anything harsher than a paper towel). To be thorough, you mentioned earlier that your sanitizer looked weird, chuck and get new stuff if you're unsure of its effectiveness. Sanitize, sanitize and then sanitize some more, it's your only defense against infection and if you don't do it properly your equipment doesn't matter.