Bottling, oxidation, head space and headaches

[WinoBob]

Guys,

I'm having some serious oxidation problems. I'm fairly new to brewing, and the first five batches I made were all 1 gallon, and I found the whole racking and bottling process quite problematic and sloppy. Also, anything you do for the first few times, you're not going to be very good at, so when I realized I had an oxidation problem, I put it down to poor skill.

The last batch I brewed was a 3 gallon one, and I could now bottle without racking the beer - I just put a bottling wand straight on the spigot on the fermentor and the process was pretty enjoyable, much thanks to this fantastic thread: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/bottling-tips-for-the-homebrewer.94812/

When I took the FG sample, the beer was gorgeous - like freshly squeezed orange juice. The perfect NEIPA. After two weeks on bottles, the beer has gone slightly "burgundy", and the "wet cardboard" was evident.

I'm aware that oxidation can occur in many parts of the process, but two things lead me to believe it happens in the bottle: firstly, I opened three bottles; two of them were poorly filled, and had a lot of head space (one I managed to knock over after filling, so no surprise there. The other was the last of the beer), and one was properly filled. The one with less head space looked and tasted WAY better than the other two. Secondly, the sample I took when bottling was so dang beautiful, and nothing like after two weeks in bottles.

I know many might say "just keg!", but I'm not in a position to be able to do that, for a number of reasons, so bottling is what I need to do.

After having four batches, which have all showed so much promise up until bottling, being ruined, brewing has now kind of turned into a thing of anxiety, not the joy I first felt...

So, here are my questions:

1, Would y'all agree it seems like I have a oxidation problem related to bottling?

2, I've googled this quite a bit, and it seems many have oxidation/bottling problems with hop intensive beers, like NEIPAs. Does this ring true to you?

3, I read a lot about "purging bottles/head space with co2", but I'm such a newbie that I don't even comprehend how you would go about doing that. Can you put co2 into a bottle full of beer? Wouldn't beer splash everywhere? What equipment would I use? (Sorry if I'm a complete idiot here).

I would like to add that I believe my process to be sound, and that my practical skills have improved through doing. I am also quite OCD about sanitation.

Please help, I'm sick of pouring beer down the drain.

Cheers!

 

[Velnerj]

I've never made/bottled a NEIPA but I have definitely heard of this issue.

I'm not sure what you could be doing differently except maybe you'd have to bottle before fermentation is complete so the bottles carb naturally. This might wash out the oxygen from the bottle and eliminate adding oxygen via priming sugar.

The tricky part is that you have to know what your FG is going to be for sure, and the only way to do that is to brew the same beer several times. Then bottle about 2 gravity points prior to reaching fg.

The dangerous part is that if you miscalculate and your fg goes lower than expected you could have gushers at best and bottle bombs at worst. So take this advice carefully....

 

[Vale71]

1, Would y'all agree it seems like I have a oxidation problem related to bottling?

Most definitely.

2, I've googled this quite a bit, and it seems many have oxidation/bottling problems with hop intensive beers, like NEIPAs. Does this ring true to you?

Absolutely. NEIPAs are possibly the worst beer style when it comes to oxydation issues.

3, I read a lot about "purging bottles/head space with co2", but I'm such a newbie that I don't even comprehend how you would go about doing that. Can you put co2 into a bottle full of beer? Wouldn't beer splash everywhere? What equipment would I use? (Sorry if I'm a complete idiot here).

Probably not what you want to hear, but without closed transfers and counterpressure filling you're always going to get too much oxygen in the bottle.

 

[madscientist451]

Here's a Brulosophy article where he successfully bottled an NEIPA:

http://brulosophy.com/2018/03/12/th...oning-on-new-england-ipa-exbeeriment-results/

He used closed transfer to a keg from a stainless fermenter and a Blichtmann beer gun to bottle off the keg.
If you are going to buy all that stuff you might as well just keg the beer.
The small, 2.5 gallon kegs will fit in a standard refrigerator and can use a picnic tap with about 5' of hose. You don't need to leave the Co2 tank hooked up all the time, just put some more gas on from time to time.
Kegging or bottling, if you want to keep brewing Hoppy beers, you're going to need some more equipment.
If you can get a used corny keg, cut a few inches off the dip tube , ferment in that and then do a closed transfer to your serving keg.
So basically you need 2 kegs, a Co2 tank and regulator and a picnic tap.

 

[RPh_Guy]

First, you need to make sure oxygen isn't getting into the beer BEFORE bottling.
Do you open the fermenter at all during fermentation? How far along is fermentation when you open it?
Does your fermenter seal well? Many buckets don't.
Airlock -- rubber stopper with bubbler airlock filled with liquid? No silicone parts?
NOT cold crashing?
Bottling ASAP when fermentation completes? Typically 5-10 days.

Bottling day tips:
Use oxygen-absorbing bottle caps.
Do not wet or sanitize the caps before use (unless you want to dunk or spray them individually, seconds before use).
After capping, invert the bottles to wet the caps; this activates them.
Minimize headspace in the bottles. As you've seen, this makes a big difference. Leave only 1-2mL air at the top. I had to take the spring out of my bottle wand to allow me to do this easily. (Fill bottle from the bottom as normal, and then withdraw the wand and fill from the top by pressing the top against the side.) You do need to allow some space, otherwise thermal expansion could generate enough pressure to burst the bottles.
If possible, use larger bottles, like 22oz bombers. This leaves an even lower amount of headspace relative to the beer (and lower relative oxygen leaking in around the cap).

Advanced techniques:
Bottling with enough residual sugar to carbonate the beer further reduces oxygen exposure. I'm not going to fully explain here, but you need to do a forced fermentation test to determine the ultimate FG and then determine the bottling gravity to allow for enough carbonation.
You can simply get a CO2 tank & regulator, and flush the headspace with gas before applying the cap. This doesn't seem worth it if you're already minimizing the headspace following my directions above.
Once your process is tuned to minimize oxygen in the bottles, you can consider wax or foil to prevent oxygen seeping in through the cap ... If you want to keep bottles fresh for 6+ months.

Carbonating & storage:
Invert & swirl the bottles to rouse the yeast as often as possible for the first few days. This helps rapidly carbonate, if they're at 70-75°F or above. Test a bottle every 3 days of this. Put the bottle in the fridge for 12-24 hours before testing. Rapid carbonation helps the yeast to utilize headspace oxygen faster.
Once the bottles carbonate, store them in the refrigerator. This slows down the oxidation reactions.

 

[jack13]

Switching to RO water helped my oxidation problems. My tap water had high iron content, which made oxidation more likely.

Something to consider.

 

[Jag75]

Yeah hoppy beers especially NEIPA are tough to bottle without oxidizing. When you bottle from your fermenter from the spigot it sucks in air from the air lock . Watch the airlock next time, it will suck the water that's in it into the beer because of the beer flowing out the spigot. With that water comes the oxygen. Not much but if your botteling 3 gallons it adds up. Kegging not being an option can you get a 5# co2 bottle , regulator and line ? You could hook up the co2 line to top of air Lock and barley crack it just enough to allow the botteling without sucking in air. If you get a Y adapter you can add a line for purging the bottles as well ridding more o2.

 

[RPh_Guy]

The airlock should obviously be removed before draining the fermenter.

 

[Jag75]

The airlock should obviously be removed before draining the fermenter.

The hose I use fits right in the airlock stem. If it's the S style then yes . Either way your sucking in air as it empties via the spigot .

 

[brew703]

I've had oxidation issues when bottling NEIPA's. I quit making the style until I started kegging.
I hated bottling with a passion. I did it for a year then but the bullet and got into kegging and never looked back. Anything highly hopped could pose oxidation issues when bottling. At least it did for me.

 

[WinoBob]

Hey guys,

Just an update. I want to thank each and everyone of you for your insight and feedback. Seeing as I'm nuts about NEIPA, and not ready to go the keg route yet, I decided to throw every bit of advice into my next batch just to see if I could get any sort of result.

Obviously, if I'd been more scientific about it, I'd try one remedy at a time, to see what works or not, but as I don't have the finances to risk pouring x amount of batches down the drain, I brewed a batch and applied everything at once. So, here's what I did:

Just before bottling, I rinsed the bottles (already cleaned with PBW), purged them with CO2 and placed them in my FastRack, with the tray filled with enough Star San so the mouth of the bottle was submerged.

I then bottled straight out of the fermenter with a bottle filler attached directly onto the spigot (I use carbonation drops for priming), four bottles at a time, purged the headspace with CO2 and capped with oxygen absorbing caps. I also decided to make one of the bottles a clear one, so I could monitor the color over time.

Done this with two batches now, and five weeks after bottling the latest one, the color is still pristine, and it tastes delicious!

One again, thanks. This forum proves time and again to be THE place to go with any and all questions.

Cheers!

 

[Bilsch]

+1 for bottle spunding, I do it all the time and it always works perfectly. Remember though.. FFT (fast ferment test) is your friend.

 

[WinoBob]

+1 for bottle spunding, I do it all the time and it always works perfectly. Remember though.. FFT (fast ferment test) is your friend.

By "FFT is your friend" you mean bottle as soon as possible after fermentations is done? Because this is something I've been paying a lot more attention to lately. Rather than waiting two weeks just because that seem to be a "general rule of thumb", I now take samples and follow the process way more closely.

Cheers!

 

[balrog]

Fast Fermentation Test = FFT
Tells you what to expect for FG
Then you have to actively test the batch to see when you are 3-5 points away from FFT-FG, bottling then, and the remainder of the points finish fermenting, but bottled, so carbonates.
Very tricky to get right and you have to test, which for most of us means opening to sample, which lets in oxygen.

https://www.google.com/search?q=usi...rome..69i57.4440j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

 

[WinoBob]

Fast Fermentation Test = FFT
Tells you what to expect for FG
Then you have to actively test the batch to see when you are 3-5 points away from FFT-FG, bottling then, and the remainder of the points finish fermenting, but bottled, so carbonates.
Very tricky to get right and you have to test, which for most of us means opening to sample, which lets in oxygen.

https://www.google.com/search?q=usi...rome..69i57.4440j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Aha! So bottling without priming sugars? Interesting, indeed! I ferment in a bucket with a spigot, so never open the lid to take tests. But like you say, sounds like that needs a good knowledge of the recipe and its likely FG. Also high risk of bottle bombs if getting it wrong, right?

Brewing - the thing you think you're just gonna do like a fun thing, but turns into an obsession...

 

[balrog]

The thing about having a spigot makes it good for you to take a sample without opening the bucket, though.

Just keep in mind that letting out liquid, will pull in air through top airlock.

That's why some folks do the whole airlock-tube-deflated balloon, which fills as fermentation proceeds, then supplies CO2 back if they cold crash. See examples, for instance here: http://brulosophy.com/2018/05/10/7-methods-for-reducing-cold-side-oxidation-when-brewing-beer/

 

[RPh_Guy]

sounds like that needs a good knowledge of the recipe and its likely FG.

The forced fermentation test provides you the FG.

 

[Bilsch]

Yes it certainly does make it nice to have a spigot on your fermenter and if you use refractometer, a couple drops from the tap is all that's needed for the test. Also with this little volume you won't be pulling in any air.

As for constant testing that really isn't necessary either, just once a day when you are nearing the point where you expect to finish. But hey even if you had to pull a sample every day, uh.. not a big hardship. Anyway the trick is to test your FFT with the same refractometer you'll be using on the main ferment that way you don't need any conversion calculations to know what the gravity is because basically you don't need to care. All you need to know is what number represents the end of the ferment and when you are roughly 1 plato above your expected terminal number go ahead and bottle. For lagers fermented cold .6p to .8p is a better number because you already have some CO2 in solution.

That's all there is too it. No need to be afraid this isn't rocket science. Because of the FFT your chances of creating bottle bombs is pretty much nil and you can do this with without former knowledge of the particular beer. As I said, the fast ferment test is your friend.

Now go forth and bottle un-oxidized beer.

 

[Bilsch]

One more thing.. if you are not purging your bottles with CO2 before filling, be sure to fill with a dip tube, without turbulence and foaming. Fill to within 1/4" of the top of the bottle. Use oxygen scavenger caps as well if you feel the need. I almost always make light lagers and Koelschbiers therefore I'm quite picky about oxygen uptake because even a little in these styles stands out. The bottle spunding method outlined here is very effective at packaging beers without damaging them.

 

[Dlawrence529]

Airlock -- rubber stopper with bubbler airlock filled with liquid? No silicone parts?
\

I'm curious. What is the problem with silicone parts? I've been using a silicone blowoff tube and have had some oxidation issues (I'm sure it is related to other factors too)

 

[Vale71]

I'm curious. What is the problem with silicone parts?

They're very permeable to gases such as O2.

 

[davidabcd]

Wake up, little thread, wake up!
Use PET (plastic food grade) bottles. Just fill the bottles, squeeze out the air to the proper level and twist on the cap.

 

[Vale71]

Wake up, little thread, wake up!
Use PET (plastic food grade) bottles. Just fill the bottles, squeeze out the air to the proper level and twist on the cap.

Excellent idea! To reduce oxydation use bottles made out of a material that will let lots of oxygen in all the time!

 

[davidabcd]

Excellent idea! To reduce oxydation use bottles made out of a material that will let lots of oxygen in all the time!

Blocked.

 

[Bilsch]

Blocked.

It’s true though, PET is not a good barrier polymer.

 

[davidabcd]

It’s true though, PET is not a good barrier polymer

We're talking degrees here and context (style, packaging options). The beer being discussed isn't aged. By observation, the beer-quality plastic bottles are just fine for a number of months. They certainly let in far less O2 than is in the headspace after bottling.

 

[Miraculix]

Why not purge the whole bottle with co2 prior to bottling?

The co2 concentration at the bottom is the highest and it will be pushed out from the bottom to the top when filled with beer. If the bottle is capped as fast as possible after filling, the head space should contain almost only co2 and very little oxygen.

 

[jack13]

Why not purge the whole bottle with co2 prior to bottling?

The co2 concentration at the bottom is the highest and it will be pushed out from the bottom to the top when filled with beer. If the bottle is capped as fast as possible after filling, the head space should contain almost only co2 and very little oxygen.

I am sending out bottles for Christmas and will be taking the extra step to purge them before filling, for the first time. So this is me picturing what will be happening, not me speaking for experience...

I will be using two bottling wands: One hooked up to CO2 to fill bottles, then the other to fill with beer.

Here's my theory about what will be happening:

The bottles with fill nicely with CO2 from the bottom. So when the beer starts to flow through the wand into the bottom of the bottle, the splashing that occurs will not cause O2 to get into beer because the gas around the splashing is CO2. Likewise as the surface of the water goes up the bottle. This seems like a tried-and-true practice.

However, if you bottle as most do, you fill until the beer gets to the very top of the bottle, then pull the bottle down to stop the flow. Pulling the wand out of the bottle of course also creates the headspace.

So, what I think must be happening is, as the level of beer goes from top of bottle to slightly below as you pull out the wand, ambient air is sucked in to fill that space. Or is the theory that the CO2 that came out of the bottle as you filled is then right above the bottle and so actually CO2 gets sucked in? It's tough to imagine it cooperating like that, but maybe?

I'm not saying that air in the headspace alone is going to give you oxidized beer. I'm just wondering what's actually happening.

Think I got an easy way to fill that headspace with CO2 with my setup. But want to see what people think of the above.

 

[Miraculix]

I am sending out bottles for Christmas and will be taking the extra step to purge them before filling, for the first time. So this is me picturing what will be happening, not me speaking for experience...

I will be using two bottling wands: One hooked up to CO2 to fill bottles, then the other to fill with beer.

Here's my theory about what will be happening:

The bottles with fill nicely with CO2 from the bottom. So when the beer starts to flow through the wand into the bottom of the bottle, the splashing that occurs will not cause O2 to get into beer because the gas around the splashing is CO2. Likewise as the surface of the water goes up the bottle. This seems like a tried-and-true practice.

However, if you bottle as most do, you fill until the beer gets to the very top of the bottle, then pull the bottle down to stop the flow. Pulling the wand out of the bottle of course also creates the headspace.

So, what I think must be happening is, as the level of beer goes from top of bottle to slightly below as you pull out the wand, ambient air is sucked in to fill that space. Or is the theory that the CO2 that came out of the bottle as you filled is then right above the bottle and so actually CO2 gets sucked in? It's tough to imagine it cooperating like that, but maybe?

I'm not saying that air in the headspace alone is going to give you oxidized beer. I'm just wondering what's actually happening.

Think I got an easy way to fill that headspace with CO2 with my setup. But want to see what people think of the above.

I think that you are correct and the site being sucked back into the head space would be normal air including oxygen.

I think it would necessary to use the bottling range modification which was mentioned before, to enable you to fill from the top, rather than from the bottom.