Bottled Blues............

[Yesfan]

After reading this topic here and participated in the discussion, (link) I went back to some of my bottled brews to see if they had come to the same fate as my semi-beloved Zombi Nazi IPA has. Lo and behold, most of them were. I now know I'm going to have some dumpers and some empties that will open up for future batches, but then I'm not feeling so good about it now. What if these new empties are just going to be used for more ****ty beer I've brewed??


Most of the failed beers seem to have the same "apple-ly" aroma to them and they all seem to be very thin tasting and lacking in flavor. Is this oxidized beer I'm tasting? They all have darkened a bit too, but not as dramatic as the IPA I posted on the 4th page of the link above. Another common thing is these beers have always fermented down below 1.010. When I first started brewing, most of my beers never dropped below 1.012-1.016. Here lately, I've never had a beer whose FG was higher than 1.008 (one was 1.004!), despite the mash temp (152F-154F).


So now I guess I'm gonna be spending my time trying to figure out what I've done different with these beers that I didn't do before. Some questions coursing through my head are.....

1) Was it an issue of not capping on the foam or not letting the foam cascade a bit more before capping?
2) Could it be a common ingredient that these beers all share (gonna look back in my recipe book to see).
3) Is it something with my brewing process? Maybe the sparge water temp is too high, or the mash PH is too high/low, etc.?
4) Is it a yeast issue? I've used slurry from past batches and even made starters from them if I felt they were in storage too long.
5) Maybe a common sanitation issue I've overlooked?


Even when kegged, they seemed to taste thin. Once bottled, a different story. They get darker in color and have that apple aroma to them. I kegged a Caribou Slobber kit I brewed two weeks ago. That beer's FG was 1.008 and the sample didn't exactly wow me either. It wasn't bad, but not awesome either. I'm wondering if that beer will meet the same fate. I also have 10 gallons of American Wheat fermenting too.

Before anyone says it, I'm going to contact the local water utilities and ask about the chloramene/chlorine levels in my water. I've put that off when I know I shouldn't have, but I was hoping the use of campden tablets would make that a non-issue. Might be a good idea to know the levels anyways.

:bummed:

 

[mongoose33]

I'm still pretty new to brewing so take this with a grain of salt. My understanding is that you want nonfermentable sugars in your beer if you want a maltier fuller mouthfeel. Your beer has, in my limited experience, a very low FG, which would I'd think make it drier at the finish, plus there aren't all that many nonfermentable sugars left--or any kind. I'd think it would taste...thin.

Some ideas that come to mind in no particular order: have you calibrated your thermometer? The mash temp seems fine but maybe it's not accurate.

Also, you don't mention fermentation temperatures. Are you fermenting at too high a temperature? Are you controlling temp in any way? What temps are you aiming at?

What yeast are you using? Perhaps it's time for some commercial yeast. The Apple-y flavor sounds like it may be either fermentation temperature or yeast.

Hopefully someone can verify these are legitimate ideas or correct me.

 

[Rhaop]

https://beerandbrewing.com/VJmwUisAALkq3055/article/off-flavor-of-the-week-acetaldehyde

Sounds from your descriptions you could be suffering from oxygenation or possibly swings in your fermentation temps

Although the thin feel and low fg could suggest a bacterial infection

 

[Rhaop]

As far as your sanitation what are you fermenting in, i just discovered scratches in my nearly 5 year old buckets, time to retire them, also inspect your racking tubing or any ball valves your post boil wort/beer is coming in contact with

 

[Yesfan]

As far as fermentation temps, always on the low side of the 60s (62F). I have fermometer strips on all my carboys and they reflect the same temp as my external temp controller's display. I have the probe for my controller taped to a beer bottle filled with water and capped. I've read that would give a more reliable temp reading than having the probe dangle in the middle of the chamber.

Yeasts I've used have been 1056/US05, 1968, 1007, but mainly the first two. They have been slurries from past batches. If it's been a while, I'll make a starter to insure I have viable yeast. Fermentations have taken off 6-8 hours after pitching with some of these beers too.

As far as sanitation, I have the ultra barrier anti-microbial line on all my beer lines and also have it on my auto-siphon as well as the tubing on my growler filler. My fermenters are less that three years old (Big Mouth Bubblers), but I also don't use any harsh solvent or scrubbers when cleaning them or anything else plastic. Mainly just hot water, dish detergent that has no fragrance or aromas (Palmolive Fullcircle), and a clean dish rag. This last batch, I also made a fresh 5 gallon carboy of Star-San too.

Thermometer is a Thermopen. Some of the brews I've done in the past, like the Dead Ringer, have finished at a higher FG than this last time (1.012 before vs 1.006 now). The mash temps on this beer have been right on the nose at 152. I batch sparge using a Home Depot cooler, and the temp might drop one degree after an hour. As for ball valves, I haven't completely broken them down, but it's just a basic two piece with an elbow as a pickup. I can take the elbow off and I just use a brush to scrub the insides of the valve when cleaning after every brew.


I'm kinda leaning toward a bacterial infection too which has me worried as I don't know where to start if it's that. I also wonder if it's more my water. The last few batches I've just ran my water through a basic carbon filter. Also, I would heat my sparge water close to boiling so the mash was brought up to mash out temp. Now, I ditched the filter, collect all the water I'm going to use for mashing/sparging and pitch a half/whole campden tablet. I also heat my sparge water no higher than 170. Another brewer in my club does this and his beers have always been phenomenal. The other thing is how I bottle. I use the Biermuncher counter pressure filler mod that's popular here. I've had a imperial stout that was over a year old that tasted great. The last few bottles recently, not so much. When I bottle, I do let the foamy cascade out and over the bottles before I cap them. Maybe some of my bottles haven't been clean enough before I sanitized them. Honestly, I doubt that one, but I'm going to be diligent on the next set I bottle to be sure it's not that.

My club is doing a group buy, so once I have a small surplus of grain and hops, I may start doing some simple one gallon SMaSHes to see if I get the same tastes as I do with my five gallon batches. With one gallon batches done inside, obviously the equipment/method is going to be different than how I do 5/10 gallon batches. I have two glass one gallon jugs for fermenters, so the only plastic would be the auto-siphon/beer thief for samples. If there is a difference, then I know it's something in my method or possible infection. If there is no change, then maybe I should consider another hobby. :cross:

 

[Rhaop]

One thing i can suggest for cleaning instead of dish detergent try some oxyclean free i like to throw in half a scoop with hot water and soak my fermenter buckets overnight, its the unscented version with the green lid,

your process seems pretty sound, maybe also try raising your fermentation temperatures up from low 60's to the mid/high 60's after the bulk of your primary fermentation is complete to keep those yeast warm and active to clean up after themselves

 

[Yesfan]

One thing i can suggest for cleaning instead of dish detergent try some oxyclean free i like to throw in half a scoop with hot water and soak my fermenter buckets overnight, its the unscented version with the green lid,

your process seems pretty sound, maybe also try raising your fermentation temperatures up from low 60's to the mid/high 60's after the bulk of your primary fermentation is complete to keep those yeast warm and active to clean up after themselves

I have some Oxy Free, but mainly use that for my stainless. I worry about the Oxy putting a film on my fermenters. How much Oxy do you use on your fermenters?


I have a couple of American Wheat beers fermenting now at around 62F. I brewed them last Sunday, so I'll probably move them to a warmer spot tomorrow morning as you suggested.

Thanks for the replies (you too Mongoose).

 

[olotti]

I'm still new to brewing, coming in 2 yrs now, and the one thing I learned is a big drop in final Gravity is from infection which could also be causing the darkening of your beers. You mention bottles poss being dirty and that could very well cause it, the Apple smell from what I know is daicetyl and that is from either too high temps or not giving the yeast time to clean up their byproducts and fermenting to cold could do this as after primary fermentation is done they will flocc out if the temp is to low and they won't have a chance to clean things up. So I'd look at increasing ferment temps once primary fermentation is over so the yeast have time to clean up the daicetyl and then cleaning bottles, either with pbw solution or oxy free I think their both kinda the same, so that you don't have bottle infections. oxy clean is fine but it will leave a film if you eave it sit to long but that can then be cleaned up with vinegar, I found that out after letting a carboy sit with it for a couple days, now I'll let it soak for 24 hrs if that and I haven't had a problem with any film. Also you could have infected yeast that your reusing and that could be the problem too, that happened to me, didn't know it at the time but two IPAs I made came out smelling and tasting like Belgians and that was using 001' turns out the yeast I harvested and made starters with was infected, now I just harvest yeast from starters and don't wash it anymore. I hope this helps.

 

[Rhaop]

I usually use a half of scoop for 5gallons and i let soak overnight, pbw is a better product but also much more expensive, i usally mix the solution with the hottest water i have and after soaking i use the hottest water to rinse the bucket with, and i just rinse until that "slick" feeling goes away, 40+ batches and I haven't had a problem with anything yet, like i said earlier i had the same two buckets for almost 5 years and they were in good shape besides the scratches i found, most likely caused by the recent move to the new house as careful as i am friends and family moving stuff without me watching who knows if they loaded the buckets with stuff to haul in lol

 

[Yesfan]

I'm gonna see how this Caribou Slobber turns out and the wheat beer I made as well. I'm not going to bother bottling to put some of this back either. If I bottle any of these beers, it will be just for the day like to friend's house and brew club meetings. If nothing changes, then I may start replacing my yeast with fresh packs and see how that goes. If that's the case, I'll go ahead and replace the O-rings on my kegs too just to be safe.


I see a $h!t load of bottles I'm going to be washing in the near future. Maybe that bottle washer project is gonna be sooner than expected. LOL!

 

[clone63]

The low FG sticks out in my mind as an infection. I had a wheat beer I left way too long in primary and I'm guessing some kind of wild yeast took hold because it dropped to 1.006 from its originally tested 1.011. Not much pellicle, more white spots that seems like unflocced yeast. It tasted... well, thin. Like most the flavour was just removed.

If you want to test, I'd take a couple of the dud bottles and pour them into a large jar or something and see what develops, maybe add a little DME solution to see if you can get a pellicle or floaties, or perhaps it wont do much and lean away from infection.

 

[Rhaop]

I soak bottles in my laundry tub with oxyclean and then they get a hot wash with the bottle jet then hung on the bottle tree to dry, makes bottling alot less painful!

 

[Yesfan]

The low FG sticks out in my mind as an infection. I had a wheat beer I left way too long in primary and I'm guessing some kind of wild yeast took hold because it dropped to 1.006 from its originally tested 1.011. Not much pellicle, more white spots that seems like unflocced yeast. It tasted... well, thin. Like most the flavour was just removed.

If you want to test, I'd take a couple of the dud bottles and pour them into a large jar or something and see what develops, maybe add a little DME solution to see if you can get a pellicle or floaties, or perhaps it wont do much and lean away from infection.

I was wondering about an infection, but saw this video where this guy has experienced the same of flavors I have.





Hate to admit, it's funny/scary as hell watching him pop the tops off those bottles. Kinda like a horror film for homebrewers.


None of my beers have been gushers. Ok, all of the beers that have had these off flavors have been be in the fridge when I tried them, so maybe the cold temps have been what's kept them from gushing. Is that possible? Could I set a few back to warm at room temp, pop the tops to see? If they don't gush at room temps, does that confirm it's a oxidation issues an not a bacterial one?

 

[clone63]

None of my beers have been gushers. Ok, all of the beers that have had these off flavors have been be in the fridge when I tried them, so maybe the cold temps have been what's kept them from gushing. Is that possible? Could I set a few back to warm at room temp, pop the tops to see? If they don't gush at room temps, does that confirm it's a oxidation issues an not a bacterial one?

The refrigeration could have halted or slowed any infecting bacteria and thus reduced the chance of gushers. The infection I mentioned got to the whole batch but oddly only a couple were gushers, the rest ranged from normal to just overcarbed... As for room temp opening.. I'd be surprised if that gave you much of a gusher, since the FG is already low, that leads me to suspect its done it's job, but its surely worth a shot.

If you can rule out infection, it sort of sounds like a water chemistry issue. Taste and colour could easily be affected. The low FG though? Hm. I've never heard of water doing that but.. I'm NO expert. Perhaps there's instances of a particular chemical causing larger chain sugars to precipitate out, leaving you with less remaining sugars, and thus thinner, crummier taste. Haha just brainstorming now..

 

[Yesfan]

......Haha just brainstorming now..

Don't let up. LOL! Never know about something being overlooked.



I may just set a few out and let them warm up. Couldn't hurt. Good point about the FG. If the low FG is low right when I'm kegging, then it may be a yeast issue or a sanitation issue with my fermenters.


I planned on dumping all my bottled beer. Now I want to set a few out and see what happens. Maybe that will give an idea where this infection has started if it is an infection issue.

 

[clone63]

To try to rule out water, you could do a 1 gallon side by side of the same recipe with store bought water and the other, your tap water.

 

[Yesfan]

To try to rule out water, you could do a 1 gallon side by side of the same recipe with store bought water and the other, your tap water.

I think I'll do that. A simple smash might suffice.

Thanks for the tip!

 

[Yesfan]

Thought I'd give an update and some thoughts.


I set out a few bottles to let warm up to room temp to see if they would blow or spew when opened. I had a feeling they probably wouldn't due to the low FG I had on these beers (1.004-1.008) when I racked them, but felt needed to eliminate that variable nonetheless. As expected, I opened up a few over the sink like in the guy's video I posted. Part of me wanted to endure the wife's wrath as some spewed beer would tell me I've found my problem. No gushers, no wrath, no solution. (sigh)


I don't think it's my water as I've brewed good beer before and made no changes back then (ex: campden tablet additions etc.), so I'm thinking I'm looking at a bacterial infection of some kind. I'm drinking my Caribou Slobber I kegged on 4/9. I let it burst carb for a day at 30, then dropped it down to serving pressure the next day. I'm drinking it now and it seems thin and dry with a faint apple taste in the background. Can beer oxidize that quickly or is this a stronger indication of an infection somewhere?

So I'm thinking my plan of attack is.......

1) A long recirculating soak of PBW for my fermenters/kegs/bottles
2) A recirculating how PBW wash of my boil kettle and mashtun. I have a single Chugger I use to pump strike water up to my mash tun. I figured the recirculating would be more beneficial for the pump. I can also wash my kettles the same way I do my kegs/carboy. Maybe I could take the head off the Chugger and let it soak in the PBW. Same could be said for things like my siphon, tubing, funnels, etc that touched my beer between carboy and keg.
3) Changing the Orings on my kegs. The bad thing is I don't have a surplus of lid Orings like I do for the diptubes and posts. Could I just boil them, maybe boil them along with the poppet valves?
4) Replacing the yeast. Right now, my stout I have on tap seems to be the only beer uninfected. I remember using a fresh pack of 1335 yeast for it. I made a slightly larger starter when I brewed this beer, so I could save some back, so the "slurry" from the 1335 was harvested before pitching and not after fermentation was over. That beer does taste a bit dry and a little thin, but I don't detect the green apple aroma. I did use gypsum in the mash, but found later that gypsum would dry a beer out and is better for IPAs so the hops come through more. So maybe that beer's taste is a result of that mistake of adding gypsum. Hope so.


So, should I do all four or do I need to make this a process of elimination? If one at a time, I'm thinking of starting with the yeast. Maybe for the next beer I could do a couple of one gallon batches of the same beer (a SMaSH recipe). Batch one would get fresh yeast while batch two would get slurry.


I'm all open on thoughts and suggestions.

 

[mongoose33]

This is a little outside the box, but when you mix up Star-San and PBW, you are using the correct ratios, right?

Star-San is an ounce to 5-gallons; PBW is an ounce per gallon. I always have to stop and think about it. If you're mixing PBW using the Star-San formula, it's not enough.

Don't ask me how I know someone might innocently make such a mistake.

 

[2trout]

Yesfan wrote

1) Was it an issue of not capping on the foam or not letting the foam cascade a bit more before capping?
2) Could it be a common ingredient that these beers all share (gonna look back in my recipe book to see).
3) Is it something with my brewing process? Maybe the sparge water temp is too high, or the mash PH is too high/low, etc.?
4) Is it a yeast issue? I've used slurry from past batches and even made starters from them if I felt they were in storage too long.
5) Maybe a common sanitation issue I've overlooked?

I'm curious, what do you mean in #1? Do you let your bottles overflow when filling?

Also, You've alluded to better results when you worked with packaged yeast. Start with a through cleaning and sanitation, AND skip using slurries. If there is an infection, using yeast slurries from previous batches is a bad idea.

 

[wi_brewer]

Ditch the slurries and start with fresh yeast for your next batch. I'd bet you are infecting each batch when you pitch your yeast.

 

[MaryB]

Yeast was my first thought too... and since I am still doing extract brews as I build my all grain system it is not that expensive when you consider the cost of ingredients...

Other thought is has your city changed water sources or added a new source that is being blending with your old?

 

[Yesfan]

Yesfan wrote



I'm curious, what do you mean in #1? Do you let your bottles overflow when filling?

Also, You've alluded to better results when you worked with packaged yeast. Start with a through cleaning and sanitation, AND skip using slurries. If there is an infection, using yeast slurries from previous batches is a bad idea.

I use a simple counter pressure filler that's made up of a pirce if racking can and a bottle stopper (search for Beirmuncher's Beergun). I fill the bottles til they start foaming over, then cap them. I botte off my taps when I want to put a few back and/or move a keg out faster for a new brew.


For the slurry, a common practice I had been doing was harvest the yeast cake from a freshly kegged batch and place in sanitized mason jars. For an experiement, I may split the next batch to where half gets fresh yeast and the other half gets slurry. If both beers taste the same, then I'll have to look at what else is at play. If the fresh yeast produces a tasty beer, then problem solved hopefully.

Either way, the next few batches I plan on doing will get fresh yeast.