Bootleg Biology: Mad Fermentationist Brett Saison

[Yeroc]

Today I brewed a 5 gallon ginger beer recipe from The Homebrewer's Almanac (authors are co-founders of Scratch Brewing Company). Used 264 ml of MF Brett yeast slurry per Mr. Malty calculator.

This recipe has a small grain bill (6.25 lbs) plus some table sugar. I had trouble keeping the mash temp stable at 147 in my 10 gallon Igloo cooler mash tun, but after a few additions of boiling water it leveled out and held.

I'm curious to see how the 1.5 lbs of grated ginger in this brew tastes when finished. The ginger, split between two hop bags, was in the boil for the whole 60 minutes. I love ginger and might dry hop with fresh ginger before bottling.

 

[TravelingLight]

Brewed this yesterday...

11# 2-Row
1# Vienna
1# White Wheat

0.5 oz. Saaz @15

OG: 1.060
IBU: 2.9

Originally planned to use Pils instead of 2-row, as that's my house saison grist. But I decided to use the closer LHBS to get my grain and apparently it was a bit pilsner week for him and he was flat out of pils. So I subbed the 2-row and proceeded. Could be a big beer depending out how it attenuates...

Spun up a standard 2L starter, harvested off 500ml to bank, then pitched the remaining 1.5L into the wort. I did not decant because I know (well, I've read) that brett (and maybe lacto?) doesn't crash out as quickly/easily as sacc. And I didn't have time for a prolonged cold crash to ensure the brett/lacto had compacted out, so I just pitched it all. It's chugging away this morning.

I'll likely leave it be for 10-14 days before I check gravity (unless anyone else more familiar with this strain advises earlier?

Brewed this on Sunday, 7/16. Still got some yeast rafts floating, but the bulk of the krausen has dropped. Took a sample this morning (been in primary for 16 days) and it was at 1.016. I was expecting a little more attenuation by this point, but the flavor was great. Pretty prevalent lacto punch, with just a tee-tiny bit of acetic flavor, but I could be mistaking that for some early brett attributes.

I'll plan on checking gravity again in a week, unless someone with more experience with this blend tells me I should wait longer. I'm in no rush. But I am going to rack to apricots. So I'll wait until gravity is stable before racking to fruit. Thoughts?

 

[Yeroc]

Took a sample this morning (been in primary for 16 days) and it was at 1.016. I was expecting a little more attenuation by this point, but the flavor was great.

So I'll wait until gravity is stable before racking to fruit. Thoughts?

I'm surprised that you're at 1.016 too. The couple of brews I've made dropped low pretty quick. What was your mash temperature? I think mine have all been in the 147/148 range.

Also curious why you want to wait until you have a stable gravity before racking onto fruit. I have no reason why you shouldn't; just curious as to your thinking.

 

[TravelingLight]

I'm surprised that you're at 1.016 too. The couple of brews I've made dropped low pretty quick. What was your mash temperature? I think mine have all been in the 147/148 range.

Also curious why you want to wait until you have a stable gravity before racking onto fruit. I have no reason why you shouldn't; just curious as to your thinking.

I mashed at 148 per my notes. Which is weird because I swear I planned to mash higher, around 154. I think I went with 148 because that's my typical saison mash temp (and those usually finish out around 1.000-1.003, but that's with 3711).

Eh, no real reason other than that's just how I've always done my fruit beers in the past. Technically, I don't want until it's stable, I just wait until I think it's done (e.g., 1.002 on my usual saisons). I just don't think this one is done at 1.016. Thoughts?

 

[Braufessor]

Both of mine with this yeast have went to 1.002-1.004 within 14 days and 68-70 degrees. Surprising yours is that high in gravity. Are you sure your hydrometer is not catching on the side of the tube or something? I usually just fill mine right to the brim so that nothing can obstruct the floating of the hydrometer.

looked like you made a starter.... 1.060 is a bit higher gravity than I did, but it is not crazy or anything....

 

[TravelingLight]

Both of mine with this yeast have went to 1.002-1.004 within 14 days and 68-70 degrees. Surprising yours is that high in gravity. Are you sure your hydrometer is not catching on the side of the tube or something? I usually just fill mine right to the brim so that nothing can obstruct the floating of the hydrometer.

looked like you made a starter.... 1.060 is a bit higher gravity than I did, but it is not crazy or anything....

Interestingly, initially I was using the hydrometer directly in the wine thief. But this is my final gravity hydro and it's a little wider than a standard one. It was hitting the sides some in the thief. Therefore, I drained the sample to my graduated cylinder and measured in that, which is more than wide enough for an accurate reading.

However, just to be absolutely certain my final gravity hydrometer hadn't gotten screwed up, I pulled it out and dropped in my regular hydrometer and it read the same. So I feel confident that was an accurate reading. Weird, right?

One final thing, although I don't suspect this is a culprit, I am not controlling temps on this fermentation. I know (or thought I've read) that Tonsmiere doesn't temp control this strain either. It's just sitting in the carboy in the corner of my guest room with a towel draped around it to keep light out. Ambient temps in my house range from about 74-79/80 this time of year.

 

[Oldsock]

@Oldsock - (or others who may have tried this)

I brewed a couple hoppy saisons with this that went into bottles tasting very good. For both - I hopped them pretty high. Want to try a couple very low IBU to let the lacto come through.

I bought a couple new packs in the last sale. For one - I am going to brew a pretty basic, low IBU Saison. For the other, I was thinking about trying a Dark Saison. Low IBU. And and some point..... I want to add cherries to it. We have a dozen Montmorency Tart Cherry trees in our back yard and had a good harvest this year. Any thoughts on a Dark Saison with Cherries using this yeast?? Any "do's or don'ts". Any Recipe suggestions that might lend to this.... thinking low on the roast flavors, looking for dark, tart, some sour and funk from the yeast and the cherries.
Thanks

Brewed our 9th annual dark saison on Sunday (25% flaked rye, charred currants, Saison III, and Russian River dregs). Any of those recipes could work, although #7 isn’t one of my favorites. I think cherry, dark malt, and acid (with restrained funk) is a great combination. It doesn’t take much sour cherry to add a nice aroma, especially with a blend like this that has some similar notes already. Nice to wait on adding fruit until you’ve gotten close to the acid/funk profile you want, no sense racking onto fruit and leaving it for a year.

 

[Oldsock]

Interestingly, initially I was using the hydrometer directly in the wine thief. But this is my final gravity hydro and it's a little wider than a standard one. It was hitting the sides some in the thief. Therefore, I drained the sample to my graduated cylinder and measured in that, which is more than wide enough for an accurate reading.

However, just to be absolutely certain my final gravity hydrometer hadn't gotten screwed up, I pulled it out and dropped in my regular hydrometer and it read the same. So I feel confident that was an accurate reading. Weird, right?

One final thing, although I don't suspect this is a culprit, I am not controlling temps on this fermentation. I know (or thought I've read) that Tonsmiere doesn't temp control this strain either. It's just sitting in the carboy in the corner of my guest room with a towel draped around it to keep light out. Ambient temps in my house range from about 74-79/80 this time of year.

Yeah, I still don't have a good guess. I don't remember, have you checked your thermometer for accuracy? Doesn't take being off by much on the mash to cause surprising results.

 

[TravelingLight]

Yeah, I still don't have a good guess. I don't remember, have you checked your thermometer for accuracy? Doesn't take being off by much on the mash to cause surprising results.

Huh. Good question. It was accurate the last time I checked it (which was a few months back). But now that you mention it, I'm going to check it again tonight. MAN I am going to be some kind of pissed off if something like that effed this beer up.

 

[TravelingLight]

Mike, can you share any insight on what the sacc strain(s) is in this blend? I noticed last night the airlock was rocking some. Now, of course we all know "airlock activity does not mean fermentation." BUT...when I took that 1.016 reading earlier this week, the airlock had been pretty still for a few days. When I looked at it last night, I noticed it's started bubbling again, about one bubble every 10 seconds or so.

Ultimately what I am getting at, is it possible that this had briefly stalled and is now picking back up again? I don't know because I've never had a batch stall during fermentation, so I'm not really sure what happens when it does. Thoughts?

 

[Braufessor]

Mike, can you share any insight on what the sacc strain(s) is in this blend? I noticed last night the airlock was rocking some. Now, of course we all know "airlock activity does not mean fermentation." BUT...when I took that 1.016 reading earlier this week, the airlock had been pretty still for a few days. When I looked at it last night, I noticed it's started bubbling again, about one bubble every 10 seconds or so.

Ultimately what I am getting at, is it possible that this had briefly stalled and is now picking back up again? I don't know because I've never had a batch stall during fermentation, so I'm not really sure what happens when it does. Thoughts?

I think the DuPont Saison strain is notorious for kind os stalling out for a while. No idea if that is part of the blend... but, seems to be a common issue with that particular strain.

 

[TravelingLight]

I think the DuPont Saison strain is notorious for kind os stalling out for a while. No idea if that is part of the blend... but, seems to be a common issue with that particular strain.

That's sort of why I was asking, to see if it was DuPont. I have a sneaking suspicion it's not though, and it's some Belgian strain. I know Mike has used 3711 in the past too, but I don't think this is 3711 either?

 

[Biobrewer]

I can guarantee you whatever Yeast Bay cultures made it into Mike's House Saison culture do not contain DuPont, though he may have added that strain through the course of continued blending from the cultures he was adding on a rolling basis. I'm sure it's a real smorgasbord, even though the cultures were reisolated and blended back together.

 

[duvnull]

Just tried the first glass from a batch using TravelingLight's house saison grist, subbed loral and mosaic for the hops.

Turned out really nice, looking forward to getting some more yeast next time it is in stock.

Thanks Oldsock for the fantastic yeast and TravelingLight for the recipe.

 

[peanasky]

Mike, can you share any insight on what the sacc strain(s) is in this blend? I noticed last night the airlock was rocking some. Now, of course we all know "airlock activity does not mean fermentation." BUT...when I took that 1.016 reading earlier this week, the airlock had been pretty still for a few days. When I looked at it last night, I noticed it's started bubbling again, about one bubble every 10 seconds or so.

Ultimately what I am getting at, is it possible that this had briefly stalled and is now picking back up again? I don't know because I've never had a batch stall during fermentation, so I'm not really sure what happens when it does. Thoughts?

I've pretty much completely gone to no airlock during primary fermentation. There's some suspicions (Brulosophy, Drew Beechum, and others?) that certain saison strains are either pressure or CO2 sensitive. With the airlock providing back pressure (which holds CO2 in suspension longer) it could create a stall. After a week or two, gentle swirling, or warming up (standard advice) the CO2 has a chance to leave solution and the yeast wake up and start again.

 

[leesmith]

I rather like the subdued brett profile. Lets the sacc profile come through. In fact i like it so much I am about to blend OYL Saisonstein and L. Plantarium and see how that turns out.

Have you brewed this yet?

 

[Oldsock]

I can guarantee you whatever Yeast Bay cultures made it into Mike's House Saison culture do not contain DuPont, though he may have added that strain through the course of continued blending from the cultures he was adding on a rolling basis. I'm sure it's a real smorgasbord, even though the cultures were reisolated and blended back together.

Yep, no Dupont as far as I'm aware. Not to say that another saison strain might not behave similarly, or that having so many strains one could pick up after another trailed off.

 

[Oldsock]

I've pretty much completely gone to no airlock during primary fermentation. There's some suspicions (Brulosophy, Drew Beechum, and others?) that certain saison strains are either pressure or CO2 sensitive. With the airlock providing back pressure (which holds CO2 in suspension longer) it could create a stall. After a week or two, gentle swirling, or warming up (standard advice) the CO2 has a chance to leave solution and the yeast wake up and start again.

I still don't understand how such a tiny amount of water in the airlock could provide meaningful back-pressure compared to the hydrostatic pressure of a foot or two of wort in the fermentor. I buy commercial scale brewers having to deal with fermentor geometry issues, it just doesn't make sense for homebrewers where our fermenting beers have so little pressure regardless of fermentor (unless you are using a spunding valve).

 

[zgja2]

Have you brewed this yet?

I had this some thought. I hope he chimes in with some insight!

 

[popquizkid]

So my order came in and brewed up a 4 gallon BIAB batch inside on the stove last week. Grain bill came from Braufessor's previous recipe and used a similar hopping schedule that I used on a clean 3711 saison last year. I remember at the time thinking I needed to try this with Brett so I am pretty excited to see how this turns out. Might dry hop in the keg to make harvesting slurry out of primary easier so I can reuse this.

Belgian - Pilsner 55.7%
American - White Wheat 18.4%
German - Vienna 8.6%
Flaked Wheat 8.6%
Flaked Oats 8.6%

0.33 oz Nelson Sauvin 15 min
0.33 oz Galaxy 15 min
0.33 oz Nelson Sauvin 5 min
0.67 oz Galaxy 5 min
0.75 oz Galaxy Dry Hop
0.5 oz Nelson Sauvin Dry Hop

Mash Temp : 151
Ca : 81.5 Mg:3.0 Na: 12.0 Cl: 100.9 Suflate: 100.9

 

[peanasky]

I still don't understand how such a tiny amount of water in the airlock could provide meaningful back-pressure compared to the hydrostatic pressure of a foot or two of wort in the fermentor. I buy commercial scale brewers having to deal with fermentor geometry issues, it just doesn't make sense for homebrewers where our fermenting beers have so little pressure regardless of fermentor (unless you are using a spunding valve).

It's odd, I agree. At first glance I was suspect as well, but I have to admit something about not using an airlock during primary fermentation helps to prevent the dreaded stall.

I know at my work, as little as 0.5 inH2O can make a difference, and that's about what an airlock would supply as far as back pressure. However, I agree that that little amount should not be felt by the yeast, which leans me towards the dissolved CO2 explanation. However, even there that little back pressure shouldn't drastically change the amount of CO2 able to stay in solution.

Honestly, I'm at a loss for an explanation. All I can point to is that every time I've done it, I haven't had a stuck fermentation, even using the notorious Dupont strain. Others have had the same experience (Drew Beechum, and that one Brulosophy experiment come to mind). It's frustrating for me as an engineer to not have a reason, but it is what it is.

TL;DR: I don't know why, I could make something science-sounding up but I have no proof, but it works for me and others.

 

[55x11]

I posted a response over on /r/homebrewing, but looks good here too! My most recent batch made it to 1.002 with 154F, just depends how long you are willing to wait. I generally opt for cooler and drinking sooner with this blend.

I brewed two batches with this yeast and they finished at 1.000 and 0.996. I mash at 150F. Mostly Pilsner Malt (75%), but also Munich 10L, Rye, Wheat and Sugar, at 5-7.5% each.

 

[Braufessor]

Been drinking my first batch of Saison with this yeast. it is now 7 weeks from the day I brewed it. 3 weeks in fermenter. Bottled and primed to 3.0 volumes with priming sugar. Fermented down to about 1.002 in primary, before bottling.

Long story short - this is as good a saison as I have ever brewed, and one of the better I have ever drank...... commercial or otherwise. I have a second batch of exactly the same thing bottled. I have a third batch of the same recipe (minus the hops to see what the lacto does) in primary fermenter. Will be brewing batch #4 with this yeast (dark cherry saison) this week and another straight forward saison next week.

I want to get a few of these in the pipeline so I can give them some age to see how they turn out.... the one I have now is never going to see any serious time because it is too good. I outlined what I brewed in post #47- but here is what I brewed for batch #1 (drinking now) and batch #2 (bottled a week or two ago).

Really pleased with this yeast at this point - easily my favorite, most consistent saison yeast I have used so far. Thanks @Oldsock !


6.5 gallon batch.
1.055 OG
1.002 FG

55% Pilsner
18% Wheat
9% Vienna
9% Flaked Oats
9% Flaked Wheat

.5 oz. Warrior 60 minutes
1 oz. Citra 10 minutes
1 oz. each Citra and Galaxy after flameout and chilling has started.
1 oz. Citra Dry hop

100% RO water
Ca = 70
Mg = 3
Na = 8
Cl = 55
Sulfate = 110
pH = 5.28
* Lactic Acid to get pH

Fermentation started at 68 and rose to 72-74. Settled at 70 for duration of primary.
Bottled in 750ml heavy glass bottles to 3.0 volumes with priming sugar.
Stored at 70 degrees to carbonate.

 

[TravelingLight]

Been drinking my first batch of Saison with this yeast. it is now 7 weeks from the day I brewed it. 3 weeks in fermenter. Bottled and primed to 3.0 volumes with priming sugar. Fermented down to about 1.002 in primary, before bottling.

Long story short - this is as good a saison as I have ever brewed, and one of the better I have ever drank...... commercial or otherwise. I have a second batch of exactly the same thing bottled. I have a third batch of the same recipe (minus the hops to see what the lacto does) in primary fermenter. Will be brewing batch #4 with this yeast (dark cherry saison) this week and another straight forward saison next week.

I want to get a few of these in the pipeline so I can give them some age to see how they turn out.... the one I have now is never going to see any serious time because it is too good. I outlined what I brewed in post #47- but here is what I brewed for batch #1 (drinking now) and batch #2 (bottled a week or two ago).

Really pleased with this yeast at this point - easily my favorite, most consistent saison yeast I have used so far. Thanks @Oldsock !


6.5 gallon batch.
1.055 OG
1.002 FG

55% Pilsner
18% Wheat
9% Vienna
9% Flaked Oats
9% Flaked Wheat

.5 oz. Warrior 60 minutes
1 oz. Citra 10 minutes
1 oz. each Citra and Galaxy after flameout and chilling has started.
1 oz. Citra Dry hop

100% RO water
Ca = 70
Mg = 3
Na = 8
Cl = 55
Sulfate = 110
pH = 5.28
* Lactic Acid to get pH

Fermentation started at 68 and rose to 72-74. Settled at 70 for duration of primary.
Bottled in 750ml heavy glass bottles to 3.0 volumes with priming sugar.
Stored at 70 degrees to carbonate.

Brau, I don't want to derail the thread. But I noticed your maple coffee RIS in your sig...do you have a thread on that I could check out? I'm planning a maple beer and am looking at all my options. Thanks.

 

[Braufessor]

Brau, I don't want to derail the thread. But I noticed your maple coffee RIS in your sig...do you have a thread on that I could check out? I'm planning a maple beer and am looking at all my options. Thanks.

I'll PM you.

 

[Oldsock]

It's odd, I agree. At first glance I was suspect as well, but I have to admit something about not using an airlock during primary fermentation helps to prevent the dreaded stall.

I know at my work, as little as 0.5 inH2O can make a difference, and that's about what an airlock would supply as far as back pressure. However, I agree that that little amount should not be felt by the yeast, which leans me towards the dissolved CO2 explanation. However, even there that little back pressure shouldn't drastically change the amount of CO2 able to stay in solution.

Honestly, I'm at a loss for an explanation. All I can point to is that every time I've done it, I haven't had a stuck fermentation, even using the notorious Dupont strain. Others have had the same experience (Drew Beechum, and that one Brulosophy experiment come to mind). It's frustrating for me as an engineer to not have a reason, but it is what it is.

TL;DR: I don't know why, I could make something science-sounding up but I have no proof, but it works for me and others.

Maybe there was another experiment, but this one has the airlock attenuate quicker and finish lower than foil with Dupont (no significant result on tasting).

How about a small amount of oxygen diffusing in? CO2 isn't so heavy that it prevents any air from mixing in, especially if the fermentation starts to lag?

 

[55x11]

Maybe there was another experiment, but this one has the airlock attenuate quicker and finish lower than foil with Dupont (no significant result on tasting).

How about a small amount of oxygen diffusing in? CO2 isn't so heavy that it prevents any air from mixing in, especially if the fermentation starts to lag?

Mike, first, thanks a lot for producing a great yeast blend! I had my record low gravity beer with this blend, 0.996!

I agree that the pressure is not the answer. The hydrostatic pressure equivalent is about 10mm of water level, negligible.

It must be the gases that diffuse back into the liquid during fermentation, probably oxygen, but also possibly nitrogen (?), perhaps something else? By sealing the fermenter we are really limiting the back diffusion of those gases severely.

While we tend to think that yeast produces only CO2, it makes me wonder if there is any other chemicals that yeast may produce that would otherwise escape through open fermentor, that otherwise could get trapped and create somewhat "toxic" environment. I am thinking along the lines of various sulfur compounds (which should be easily detectable since we are very sensitive to those).

 

[TravelingLight]

UPDATE:

Checked gravity again last night. Thankfully, it's still going and is down to 1.010 now. To recap, it was at 1.016 on 8/1 (16 days post-pitch). Now it's at 1.010 on 8/8 (23 days post-pitch). Still tastes great. I'm gonna let it ride another week (or maybe two) before checking gravity again. I'll probably rack it to fruit no later than two weeks from now regardless of where the gravity is then.

Brewed this on Sunday, 7/16. Still got some yeast rafts floating, but the bulk of the krausen has dropped. Took a sample this morning (been in primary for 16 days) and it was at 1.016. I was expecting a little more attenuation by this point, but the flavor was great. Pretty prevalent lacto punch, with just a tee-tiny bit of acetic flavor, but I could be mistaking that for some early brett attributes.

I'll plan on checking gravity again in a week, unless someone with more experience with this blend tells me I should wait longer. I'm in no rush. But I am going to rack to apricots. So I'll wait until gravity is stable before racking to fruit. Thoughts?

 

[Oldsock]

It must be the gases that diffuse back into the liquid during fermentation, probably oxygen, but also possibly nitrogen (?), perhaps something else? By sealing the fermenter we are really limiting the back diffusion of those gases severely.

Nitrogen is unlikely, it's solubility in beer is ~1% of CO2. Oxygen has a known role in yeast health, so that is certainly the easiest case to make.

 

[peanasky]

Maybe there was another experiment, but this one has the airlock attenuate quicker and finish lower than foil with Dupont (no significant result on tasting).

How about a small amount of oxygen diffusing in? CO2 isn't so heavy that it prevents any air from mixing in, especially if the fermentation starts to lag?

Nope, you're right, I remembered wrong. It very well could be some sort of gas diffusion going on. These yeasts were "bred" for open fermentations, right? Maybe over the generations they became used to having oxygen available throughout the fermentation cycle and for one reason or another became reliant on it?

Maybe the people who get the stall (never experienced it myself) have other factors going on that the yeast are sensitive to.

At this point I'm out of reasonable explanations without any proof to back it up. Maybe I need to get off my lazy butt and do an experiment of my own, haha.