Bootleg Biology: Mad Fermentationist Brett Saison

[Braufessor]

So I had a random shower thought this morning...

I'm brewing another NEIPA this weekend. Then I had the idea to basically turn it into a double brew day, with the same grains, to get third runnings or whatever to boil and pitch this yeast. I know plenty of other people have gotten more running than they needed and brewed a second beer. I've never done this. So I don't even know if it's possible with my setup and grain bill.

I've got...
8# 2-Row
4# Golden Promise
3# Flaked Oats
1# White Wheat

Is this even possible? With this grist/NEIPA, I've got an expected OG of 1.063, if that matters at all. Any thoughts on whether or not I could make this work? Or should I just not bother and wait until another weekend when I can do a proper mash for this yeast/beer? Thanks.

That might be on the light side to get a second beer out of...... However, if you throw in 3 pounds of DME to the additional runnings, you could get a a nice light saison out of it I bet. Any time I do a second runnings beer, I always have several 1 pound bags of DME on hand to adjust the gravity.

Also, be careful of PH/Temp/sparge if you are trying to get at those final gravity points in your mash - astringency/tannins could be a problem in that situation.

 

[TravelingLight]

That might be on the light side to get a second beer out of...... However, if you throw in 3 pounds of DME to the additional runnings, you could get a a nice light saison out of it I bet. Any time I do a second runnings beer, I always have several 1 pound bags of DME on hand to adjust the gravity.

Also, be careful of PH/Temp/sparge if you are trying to get at those final gravity points in your mash - astringency/tannins could be a problem in that situation.

Good points. Thanks for the heads up on the DME. I think I've decided I'm going to wait until I can do my full saison grist. Especially since this will be my first time using this yeast and I don't want to eff it up just for the sake of knocking out two beers in one day.

 

[Oldsock]

Michael stated the lacto was "kinda whimpy" so I'd stay under 2-3 ibu's of old hops if you really want lacto to shine

I did, but it seems that the Lacto is getting stronger! My most recent batch had loads of high AA% hops in the whirlpool and still got to a nicely tart final pH of 3.75. I've heard from a few people that they got good acidity at 20 IBUs. Jeff is considering doing a single strain release of the Lacto to see what it can do on its own!

 

[zgja2]

how long do you traditionally let beers go with this blend? I just dryhopped one. Will be right at 2 months when kegged. Tasted fantastic. I imagine it will get more brett character with time as there was non at 1 month and just a little at 1.5

 

[Oldsock]

how long do you traditionally let beers go with this blend? I just dryhopped one. Will be right at 2 months when kegged. Tasted fantastic. I imagine it will get more brett character with time as there was non at 1 month and just a little at 1.5

I usually have beers fermented with it in the keg by 3-4 weeks, and then 4-6 weeks of keg conditioning before I tap it.

Honestly the blend never seems to get that funky. I'm writing up the tasting notes for my most recent batch of dark saison (just over a year old) to coincide with the second release of the blend and the Brett really isn't that assertive.

 

[TravelingLight]

I usually have beers fermented with it in the keg by 3-4 weeks, and then 4-6 weeks of keg conditioning before I tap it.

Honestly the blend never seems to get that funky. I'm writing up the tasting notes for my most recent batch of dark saison (just over a year old) to coincide with the second release of the blend and the Brett really isn't that assertive.

What's your process for keg conditioning these beers? Do you keep the keg cold and just don't tap it for 4-6 weeks? Do you just put enough gas to keep pressure on the seals or do you set it for 12 psi and leave it? Never really done much keg conditioning. Just seeing how you do it. Thanks, Mike.

 

[zgja2]

I usually have beers fermented with it in the keg by 3-4 weeks, and then 4-6 weeks of keg conditioning before I tap it.

Honestly the blend never seems to get that funky. I'm writing up the tasting notes for my most recent batch of dark saison (just over a year old) to coincide with the second release of the blend and the Brett really isn't that assertive.

I rather like the subdued brett profile. Lets the sacc profile come through. In fact i like it so much I am about to blend OYL Saisonstein and L. Plantarium and see how that turns out.

 

[GTG]

I did a 5 gal partial mash and extract with wheat, pilsen, oats and rye with all whirlpool additions of mosaic and galaxy hops. Added 1.5 liters of passion fruit pulp and 2 oz of old French barrel chunk. I bottled it over the weekend and it tasted great pre-carbonation. Will report back when the bottles are ready.
GTG

 

[Oldsock]

What's your process for keg conditioning these beers? Do you keep the keg cold and just don't tap it for 4-6 weeks? Do you just put enough gas to keep pressure on the seals or do you set it for 12 psi and leave it? Never really done much keg conditioning. Just seeing how you do it. Thanks, Mike.

I think Brett does some of its best work under pressure so I prime the kegs and naturally condition at room temperature for at least a month in most cases. Then I let it sit in the kegerator for a week or two on gas before I really start drinking.

 

[TravelingLight]

I think Brett does some of its best work under pressure so I prime the kegs and naturally condition at room temperature for at least a month in most cases. Then I let it sit in the kegerator for a week or two on gas before I really start drinking.

Interesting! I have never done that but this may be the perfect opportunity for me to try. You do it just like you would prime bottles, except you rack on top of it in the keg?

I assume if it's done this way, when you're ready to put it in the kegerator you just put it on normal serving pressure since it's already carbed (or mostly carbed)? Thanks brother.

 

[Oldsock]

Interesting! I have never done that but this may be the perfect opportunity for me to try. You do it just like you would prime bottles, except you rack on top of it in the keg?

I assume if it's done this way, when you're ready to put it in the kegerator you just put it on normal serving pressure since it's already carbed (or mostly carbed)? Thanks brother.

Pretty much, I boil the sugar, add it to the keg, purge with CO2, fill, close, purge, pressurize. You don't have to be ultra-precise as you can adjust the CO2 once it is on tap. Usually I am a little low as it is easier to increase pressure. Yep, just chill and serve (after dumping any yeast that settles at the bottom.

 

[Dcpcooks]

I think Brett does some of its best work under pressure so I prime the kegs and naturally condition at room temperature for at least a month in most cases. Then I let it sit in the kegerator for a week or two on gas before I really start drinking.

Wow that's really a smart observation. I'm floored I didn't consider it. It makes perfect sense that brett under pressure will produce different profiles.


I'm going to give that a try on the batch I made with the bootleg release. I'll split the barrel into 3 kegs and play with timing.

 

[MikeLastort]

I brewed up a saison with a primary fermentation of WLP565 back on the first Saturday in May. I racked it to a five gallon barrel about three weeks later, and put it in my outdoor shed that has no temperature control.

Last week, I pureed about a pound of mulberries I picked from a neighbor's tree and added them plus a package of the Mad Fermentationist Saison blend to the barrel. Some day I'll bring it inside and bottle it. I'm just not sure when that day will be. Maybe when temperatures outside are below freezing.

 

[Yeroc]

I'm planning to brew this weekend. I want to bring out the lacto in this first generation so the recipe will be very low on IBUs recipe.

GRAIN BILL
Pilsner 9 lbs
Rye 0.55 lbs
Spelt Malt 0.55 lbs
Flaked Wheat 0.55 lbs
Acidulated Malt 0.25 lbs

HOPS
Saaz 0.55 oz. [AA 2.9%] 45 min.
Galaxy 1 oz. dry hopped

I made a 1 liter starter last night with an OG of 1.036 just to wake up the yeast blend. Plus I wanted to use my new stir plate.

I brewed this saison back on April 8, 2017 with the Mad Fermentationist yeast and it's really turned into a nice beer.

Appearance: hazy straw. Highly carbonated and spritzy. Holds a nice dense head.

Smell: Big tropical fruit explosion at first with some saison yeast spiciness & maybe some brett funk. As it warms more traditional saison yeast aromas take over. Nice progression.

Taste: Typical saison flavors but somewhat restrained. Sourness from the lactobacillus is very present and enhances the overall perception. This is crisp and bone dry. Very enjoyable on a hot summer day after yard work or just relaxing in the shade. As the beer warms tannins come out and leave the tongue feeling a bit rough (slightly chalky maybe), but I'm either noticing this less as I drink more bottles or that's going away as the beer evolves.

I made a second beer with 240 ml of slurry from the first batch. The second beer is Michael's 'Merican Saison recipe but the store didn't have Nelson Sauvin so I went with Galaxy hops. I bottled 4 gallons about 2 weeks ago and reserved 1 gallon to dry hop with 4 pounds pomegranate pomace I saved from my Pomegranate/Syrah Port. The pom saison is off the pomace now but isn't bottled yet.

Even thought it's young, I sampled a bottle of the 'Merican yesterday just to check carbonation. I'll write up more detailed notes once this one bottle conditions longer but...

Considering the amount of hops in the recipe, I'm really surprised by the sourness of the beer - It's sturdy. The saison yeast aromas and flavors aren't expressing themselves as much as I expected but maybe that's because the beer is still "green" and needs more conditioning. This beer also has that tannin quality of the first beer. Again, more on the 'Merican later.

 

[Oldsock]

Thanks for the continued feedback and all the excellent ideas!

For those who missed the first round, the second round of pre-sales starts at noon central today and runs through Monday 7/10! Link

 

[Doomsayer52]

I brewed a Dark Saison on 5/28 with this blend.

Maris Otter, Dark Munich, Vienna, Wheat, Special B, Acid Malt, and D180 Candi Syrup. I used African Queen hops to try and bring out some of the stone fruit/cherry from yeast itself.

The OG was 1.060 and when I went to bottle yesterday it had dropped all the way to 1.001, which is crazy because I didn't think it would attenuate that far based on the information provided. Either way, not a bad thing.

Initial sample was great! Little bit of caramel up front followed by candied cherry, pineapple, stone fruit, and raisin. Not really very sour, has a small lactic bite on the way down but nothing too crazy. A lot of pepper with a hint of funk. Definitely complex.

I'm really looking forward to how this one is going to taste carbed up.

 

[Braufessor]

Bottled my first saison with this yeast yesterday. It was great out of the fermenter.
It was in primary for about 20 days. Primed it with sugar to come in around 3.0 volumes and bottled in 750ml heavy bottles.

6.5 gallon batch.
1.055 OG
1.004 FG

55% Pilsner
18% Wheat
9% Vienna
9% Flaked Oats
9% Flaked Wheat

.5 oz. Warrior 60 minutes
1 oz. Citra 10 minutes
1 oz. each Citra and Galaxy after flameout and chilling has started.
1 oz. Citra Dry hop

100% RO water
Ca = 70
Mg = 3
Na = 8
Cl = 55
Sulfate = 110
pH = 5.28
* Lactic Acid to get pH

Fermentation started at 68 and rose to 74. Settled at 70 for duration of primary

Was really happy with the way it tasted going into bottles. Harvested yeast and batch #2 in the boil kettle right now. This one is exactly the same. Will likely try something a bit different with it in upcoming weeks.

 

[Braufessor]

@Oldsock
Question - The first batch I did with this (post above) obviously had IBU's that were too high to let the lacto do much of anything. If I harvested that yeast and repitched into a beer that had very low IBU's in it, do you think the lacto would come back in a beer like that? Or, does the fact that it went through a high IBU beer in one generation pretty much preclude the lacto from doing anything in the next generation?
Thanks

 

[Dcpcooks]

@Oldsock
Question - The first batch I did with this (post above) obviously had IBU's that were too high to let the lacto do much of anything. If I harvested that yeast and repitched into a beer that had very low IBU's in it, do you think the lacto would come back in a beer like that? Or, does the fact that it went through a high IBU beer in one generation pretty much preclude the lacto from doing anything in the next generation?
Thanks

I suspect the lacto was damaged by the higher ibu's

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1610305/

 

[Oldsock]

@Oldsock
Question - The first batch I did with this (post above) obviously had IBU's that were too high to let the lacto do much of anything. If I harvested that yeast and repitched into a beer that had very low IBU's in it, do you think the lacto would come back in a beer like that? Or, does the fact that it went through a high IBU beer in one generation pretty much preclude the lacto from doing anything in the next generation?
Thanks

I'd think it would be stunned, but not killed. I've run this blend through some pretty hoppy beers and it produce acid on subsequent batches. Wouldn't hurt to toss it into a 0 IBU starter to help the rehab though.

 

[Oldsock]

I suspect the lacto was damaged by the higher ibu's

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1610305/

I skimmed the study, and seem to be missing the relevance to this question.

 

[Dcpcooks]

I should have worded that better. My take on the study was that lacto can adapt to ISO alpha hops under certain conditions, the majority of the lacto at higher ISO alpha levels would die but some would adapt and survive.

I'm not a chemist and I'd have to really dig in to the levels of ISO alpha hops used in the study vs the normal levels in moderately hop beers.

I really hadn't thought about the effects of hops on lacto before. I was operating under the assumption that the hops would inhibit growth but not necessarily be lethal to lacto. I think the study shows that hops can lethal to lacto rather than just inhibitors of growth. The level of ibu's needed to actually be lethal is probably a better way of looking at the assessment. It looks like the cellular acid levels pays a role in adaptation so ph levels and sugar sources play a role in the ability of the lacto to adapt to ISO alpha resistance.

So I guess my question is multi level 1 if the lacto was able to develop the resistance what does that do the the flavor development of the lacto and does that change impact the qualities of fermentation that we desire.
2 what is the level of ibu's needed to actually be lethal?

I'm assuming the study was conducted from the perspective of limiting the effects of lacto as a spoilage agent on clean beers rather than studying the impact of hops on positive flavor development on sour beers.

For me the take away was that higher levels of ibu's is more than just a retardant to lacto growth but could actually be lethal and could change the resultant fermentation qualities.

 

[TravelingLight]

I'm getting around to this yeast this weekend. Going to pitch in my house saison grist...

11# Pils (84%)
1# Vienna (8%)
1# White Wheat (8%)

I usually mash this at 148*. First, should I adjust my mash temp? This is my first time working with brett, didn't know if I should change my mash temp for that. Also, any thoughts on that grist for this blend or any changes I should make? FWIW, I will be fruiting this.

For hops, I'll use whatever I have in the freezer, keeping it at 3 or less IBUs. I want to tease out the lacto as much as possible.

Thanks y'all. I'm spinning up my starter tonight and brewing on Sunday most likely.

 

[Oldsock]

I'm getting around to this yeast this weekend. Going to pitch in my house saison grist...

11# Pils (84%)
1# Vienna (8%)
1# White Wheat (8%)

I usually mash this at 148*. First, should I adjust my mash temp? This is my first time working with brett, didn't know if I should change my mash temp for that. Also, any thoughts on that grist for this blend or any changes I should make? FWIW, I will be fruiting this.

For hops, I'll use whatever I have in the freezer, keeping it at 3 or less IBUs. I want to tease out the lacto as much as possible.

Thanks y'all. I'm spinning up my starter tonight and brewing on Sunday most likely.

I posted a response over on /r/homebrewing, but looks good here too! My most recent batch made it to 1.002 with 154F, just depends how long you are willing to wait. I generally opt for cooler and drinking sooner with this blend.

 

[TravelingLight]

I posted a response over on /r/homebrewing, but looks good here too! My most recent batch made it to 1.002 with 154F, just depends how long you are willing to wait. I generally opt for cooler and drinking sooner with this blend.

Thanks for pulling double duty today!

 

[TravelingLight]

Brewed this yesterday...

11# 2-Row
1# Vienna
1# White Wheat

0.5 oz. Saaz @15

OG: 1.060
IBU: 2.9

Originally planned to use Pils instead of 2-row, as that's my house saison grist. But I decided to use the closer LHBS to get my grain and apparently it was a bit pilsner week for him and he was flat out of pils. So I subbed the 2-row and proceeded. Could be a big beer depending out how it attenuates...

Spun up a standard 2L starter, harvested off 500ml to bank, then pitched the remaining 1.5L into the wort. I did not decant because I know (well, I've read) that brett (and maybe lacto?) doesn't crash out as quickly/easily as sacc. And I didn't have time for a prolonged cold crash to ensure the brett/lacto had compacted out, so I just pitched it all. It's chugging away this morning.

I'll likely leave it be for 10-14 days before I check gravity (unless anyone else more familiar with this strain advises earlier?

 

[Braufessor]

@Oldsock - (or others who may have tried this)

I brewed a couple hoppy saisons with this that went into bottles tasting very good. For both - I hopped them pretty high. Want to try a couple very low IBU to let the lacto come through.

I bought a couple new packs in the last sale. For one - I am going to brew a pretty basic, low IBU Saison. For the other, I was thinking about trying a Dark Saison. Low IBU. And and some point..... I want to add cherries to it. We have a dozen Montmorency Tart Cherry trees in our back yard and had a good harvest this year. Any thoughts on a Dark Saison with Cherries using this yeast?? Any "do's or don'ts". Any Recipe suggestions that might lend to this.... thinking low on the roast flavors, looking for dark, tart, some sour and funk from the yeast and the cherries.
Thanks

 

[TravelingLight]

@Oldsock - (or others who may have tried this)

I brewed a couple hoppy saisons with this that went into bottles tasting very good. For both - I hopped them pretty high. Want to try a couple very low IBU to let the lacto come through.

I bought a couple new packs in the last sale. For one - I am going to brew a pretty basic, low IBU Saison. For the other, I was thinking about trying a Dark Saison. Low IBU. And and some point..... I want to add cherries to it. We have a dozen Montmorency Tart Cherry trees in our back yard and had a good harvest this year. Any thoughts on a Dark Saison with Cherries using this yeast?? Any "do's or don'ts". Any Recipe suggestions that might lend to this.... thinking low on the roast flavors, looking for dark, tart, some sour and funk from the yeast and the cherries.
Thanks

My first one with this is still in the fermenter.

But I bet Mike's funky dark saison would work well with the cherries: http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2017/07/dark-brett-saison-date-and-pomegranate.html

 

[Dcpcooks]

@Oldsock - (or others who may have tried this)

I brewed a couple hoppy saisons with this that went into bottles tasting very good. For both - I hopped them pretty high. Want to try a couple very low IBU to let the lacto come through.

I bought a couple new packs in the last sale. For one - I am going to brew a pretty basic, low IBU Saison. For the other, I was thinking about trying a Dark Saison. Low IBU. And and some point..... I want to add cherries to it. We have a dozen Montmorency Tart Cherry trees in our back yard and had a good harvest this year. Any thoughts on a Dark Saison with Cherries using this yeast?? Any "do's or don'ts". Any Recipe suggestions that might lend to this.... thinking low on the roast flavors, looking for dark, tart, some sour and funk from the yeast and the cherries.
Thanks

I racked onto cherries and it plays nicely with the yeast. Mine was a 15 ibu saison with lemon drop , galaxy and motueka hops. I used 8 lbs of dried Michigan cherries for ten gallons of beer. There is an appendix for fruit additions in the American sours book if your looking for more suggestions.

 

[Braufessor]

Listening to this right now - good interview and information that is both specific to this yeast and general to these beers.
http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/sour-hour-episode-57/