Boil the mash?
- Thread starter grathan
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I cant remember what it is called but the grain will give off weird flavors once you go above a certain temp. Thats why you only mash out at about 170* 180*tops. Sorry i cant remember what it is called right now though. Still too early for me...
The reason you don't extract excess tannins in a decoction has to do with pH. You pull the thickest part of the mash for the decoction, then you hold it at the next saccrification rest and then bring it to a boil. This gives more maillard reactions, but since it's a thick mash the pH stays in range.
Tannin extraction is a function of time and temperature and pH. If you boiled a regular mash, the pH would be too high to avoid tannin extraction at a high temperature (about over 170 degrees).
Tannin extraction is a function of time and temperature and pH. If you boiled a regular mash, the pH would be too high to avoid tannin extraction at a high temperature (about over 170 degrees).
grathan
Well-Known Member
A regular mash ph would be the same as a decocted portion's ph no? Or are you saying it would require extra water because your boiling the entire amount? And even if so, let's pretend we could simply add enough acid to maintain a low ph.
If you boil the entire mash you will de-nature all the enzymes.
Yup. you need the enzyjmes to convert starches to sugars. That's why dections only use part of the mash.
grathan
Well-Known Member
No I mean after conversion of course. I mean like not even lauter the grains. I mean add all boiling hop additions with the grains still in the pot. I mean wort chiller to cool and grains are still there. basically grains are still there at flameout. It might take a sparge to rinse some of the wort free. I know I don't make sense a lot of times and am hard to understand. Just try to think outside the box for a moment.
My thoughts are:
It could save time.
It could produce really clear wort
It could produce high 90's efficiency
My thoughts are:
It could save time.
It could produce really clear wort
It could produce high 90's efficiency
Maybe this is one of those times. You have to assume there are reasons why the basic brewing techniques used today, and for the last two centuries, have developed for a reason, evolving from thousands of years of chance, luck and trial & error. Frankly, I don't see anything good coming from boiling your mash. That said, don't let us dissuade you from experimenting.
chickypad
lupulin shift victim
How do you figure any of these to be true? Assuming for a minute we're ignoring the tannins issue, you've got a big mass of grain and water so that should take longer to boil and cool (besides being a pita, you're planning to jam your chiller in there?). Can't see how this would produce a clearer wort or increased efficiency. Plus I'm not sure the hops would get utilized, in the thick mass of grain rather than boiling free in the wort.
tootal
Well-Known Member
In the town of Windischeschenbach Germany they have a communal brewery where folks take the family recipe and brew it, take it home and ferment it, then serve it in the living room or beer garden. Awesome place. I was able to get a Zoigl recipe which is brewed without a boil. They put the hops in the mash and do a triple decoction. After the mash out they go into the fermenter. No boil except the decoctions. I took this method and modified it and take half the malt and do a protein rest and then a 150's rest and then boil it 20 minutes with all the hops in it. While it's boiling I set up the other half of the malt at a protein rest. When the boil is complete I add it back to the protein rest to raise to 140 and then 149. Then I mash out. (RIMS)
After kegging and carbing I bottles some and took it to Germany and did a side by side comparison with the gentleman who's recipe I was using. He was shocked, other than his being slightly hoppier it had the exact same taste. Primo! was his response. So knowing that doing a single decoction up front had the same effect as a triple decoction I was tempted to experiment further by doing a step mash with all the malt and hops and then draining off most of the wort and boiling the whole mash for 15 to 20 minutes. After it cools you could add the wort back and then fly sparge. The problem with this is that taking all the oxygen out of the mash though boiling will get you stuck quickly. It turns into cement. We noticed a problem with this with just boiling half the malt. So maybe it could be done if you stir in some rice hulls after the boil to refloat the mash? My reasoning for thinking this was was to get away from using another pot to clean but don't think it would be worth the added effort of rice hulls.
I just wanted to share this experience to show that you don't need to boil the wort if you decoct with the hops. The beer is very bready/malty and taste great. The main reason not to boil all the mash is loss of oxygen creating a stuck mash and/or concrete!
After kegging and carbing I bottles some and took it to Germany and did a side by side comparison with the gentleman who's recipe I was using. He was shocked, other than his being slightly hoppier it had the exact same taste. Primo! was his response. So knowing that doing a single decoction up front had the same effect as a triple decoction I was tempted to experiment further by doing a step mash with all the malt and hops and then draining off most of the wort and boiling the whole mash for 15 to 20 minutes. After it cools you could add the wort back and then fly sparge. The problem with this is that taking all the oxygen out of the mash though boiling will get you stuck quickly. It turns into cement. We noticed a problem with this with just boiling half the malt. So maybe it could be done if you stir in some rice hulls after the boil to refloat the mash? My reasoning for thinking this was was to get away from using another pot to clean but don't think it would be worth the added effort of rice hulls.
I just wanted to share this experience to show that you don't need to boil the wort if you decoct with the hops. The beer is very bready/malty and taste great. The main reason not to boil all the mash is loss of oxygen creating a stuck mash and/or concrete!
