Body Problems

[Dwain]

O.K., this will be a long post, but I need some help. I am brewing a Full Sail Amber Clone. Here is the recipe:

Style: American Amber Ale
Type: All Grain
Taste: (35.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 11 gal
Boil Size: 14.00 gal
Estimated OG: 1.058 SG
Estimated Color: 15.4 SRM
Estimated IBU: 27.4 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 85.00 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
18 lb Great Western 2 Row (2.0 SRM) Grain 87.80 %
2 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 9.76 % US 120L
.5 lb Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 2.44 %
2.00 oz Mt. Hood [6.00 %] (60 min) Hops 18.8 IBU
2.00 oz Cascade [5.50 %] (15 min) Hops 8.6 IBU
1 oz Mt. Hood [6.00%] (End) Hops 18.8 IBU
1 oz Cascade [5.50 %] (End) Hops 8.6 IBU
1 Pkgs. Safale – 05 Dry Ale Yeast


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge
Total Grain Weight: 20.5 lb
----------------------------
Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge


I had to substitute 2 of the malts due to availability. The substitutions are in Bold. I pretty much make all my temperatures. This recipe was given to me by someone on here. I use about 1 1/4qts of water per pound to mash. I normally batch sparge. I make up the water I need to my boil level by sparging until I’m there. I do my boil and hops addition per schedule. I split the batch for fermentation. After fermentation, I rack to secondary for a month or so, the keg/bottle and carbonate. I’m having 2 issues:
1. Once I rack off of the trub from primary and the sediment from the secondary, I usually end up with about 3.5 – 4 gal of beer. This is on all of my beers, not just this one.
2. The beer tastes good, but the body is thin. Mostly just this one but any ambers.
Now for my questions:
1. Is there some way to compensate for the amount lost to trub from racking over? Say an increase in the grain amount by ratio. I know I can add water, but that doesn't help with question 2.
2. How do you start tweaking a recipe to increase body.
3. Would the changes in the malt that I made make that much of a difference?
Final note, in all honesty I don't pay that close of attention to the SRM.
As always, thanks for the help or direction. - Dwain

 

[Yooper]

I'm a bit thick- the substitutions are in bold? What are you subbing for the base malt? I don't quite understand what you're using for a base malt.

 

[malkore]

What's the final gravity?
How carb'd is it?

When did you last calibrate your mash thermometer for both boiling and freezing points? a few degrees off and you'll make drier beer.

also seems like you're losing a lot of beer when racking. I do a primary and secondary, then to keg. I'll make around 5.5gal in primary and 5 gal into the keg. So you should maybe lose .25 gal going to secondary and another when kegging.

 

[twoodward15]

I'll agree with the second poster. You should be using us 2 row and some 60l for this. These are the 2 most available malts in the country by far. Everyone in the US should have easy access to them. Next, what is US 175 and US 120???

 

[cushdan]

Body Problems

I'm a bit thick

 

[waldoar15]

You got me. I can see the 120 being a crystal, and you don't want to sub that for your base malt. I'm lost also.

 

[wyzazz]

Yep, your LHBS should have the 2 row.

 

[Dwain]

Guys,
Sorry, I made the corrections to the original. I was trying to do 2 things at once. The numbers were stock numbers from the receipt. The base malt was a 2 row American. The crystal was 120L instead of 60L. The OG was 1.068 with temp correction. Also:

I'll make around 5.5gal in primary and 5 gal into the keg.

Is this normal for ya'll? I'm not getting this. It seems that I get alot of trub, but I haven't been doing AG for very long. Also, I split the batch and get about the same amount in each. - Dwain

 

[pabaker34]

If the body is thin you may want to go higher on your mash temp. What was your mash temp?

Paul

 

[Blender]

You can adjust body by raising the temperature of the mash. I didn't see that mentioned in the OP. Try going to 155 and see if it improves. 27 IBU is a little low for my tastes with a 1.068 OG.

120L will definately not be the same as 60L. Likely to be a little more raisiny/toffee flavors but that is not a bad thing. A much darker malt as you likely already know.

I ferment 5.5 gallons batches, do not use a secondary and get a full 5 gallons into my kegs.

 

[Wayne1]

Dwain,

My suggestion is to back calculate your volumes and get some brewing software to help you calculate your grain and hop bill for the corrected volumes.

By back calculate I mean to figure out what final volume you want. Then take into consideration what your losses are. If you want 5 gallons in a keg, then you will typically get a .3 to .5 gallon loss in racking. You also lose a certain amount when doing a full wort boil due to evaporation.

Depending on your gear, you will also have losses in transferring from your kettle to fermenter.

As an example, I live in Denver and have a bit higher evaporation rate. I need to fill my kettle to 8.25 gallons. I boil off 1.75 gallons over a 90 minute boil. I whirlpool in my Keggle and leave roughly 0.625 gallons behind. This puts a little over 5.7 gallons into my fermenter. I usually use a secondary with gelatin finings. Factoring in the racking losses puts 5 gallons into my keg.

You do need to do some measuring and calibrating of your gear, but once that is done, you can plug all the numbers into BeerSmith and it can give you the correct grain and hop weights for your system.

As others have mentioned, try mashing a bit higher in temp. Lose the chocolate malt and try adding a pound of Cara-pils malt. I think that might come closer to what you are looking for.

 

[blackwaterbrewer]

is it possible that dwain is transferring too much grain material from his mash tun to his boil kettle, thus boiling the husks? this would account for increased trub and would impart tannins into the beer which would give the beer a dry mouthfeel. possible?

it is more likely that the thermometer is out of whack.

 

[Dwain]

I use 3 different thermometers. They are within ~2 deg. of each other.

is it possible that dwain is transferring too much grain material from his mash tun to his boil kettle, thus boiling the husks?

My mash temp was pretty steady at 155 -157

I use a false bottom with a dip tube. But maybe so - Dwain

 

[samc]

I also don't see any Whirlfloc or Irish Moss which I would associate with higher amounts of trub loss. Are you letting your hops drain off the wort they tend to soak up? A 14 gallon boil with 11 gallon batch size and you are ending up with 7-8 gallons of beer is odd. Only time that happened to me was with the Pliny clone and a pound plus of hops.

85% efficiency on your recipe. . . that seems a bit high to me, especially for someone new to AG. I average around 75% and have never exceeded 80%.

 

[Dwain]

This is the recipe I got. I didn't fill in the top portion, that's how it came to me. The ingredients are really what I was focused on. Sorry for the confusion. - Dwain

 

[OLDBREW]

This thread is really confusing.

First the recipe is for 11 gals based on 85% efficiency and you are talking about a 5.5gal batch

Second, you give 1 1/4 qts per pound as the numbers, did you add for grain absorbtion to that, or is this total water per pound in the mash?

Third, there is no saach rest temperature given or how long, did you do a 152*F 60 min. infusion mash or was it higher or lower?

fourth, 120L crystal will give you a burnt sugar taste and a raisen/prune like flavor where a 60l crystal will give you carmel flavored sweetness. 2lbs of 120l is a lot to use in that type of beer

Fifth, One pk of safale 05 isn't enough yeast for 11 gallons brew.

 

[Dwain]

This thread is really confusing.

Sorry for the confusion. If more info is needed, I’ll give a step by step of what I did.

First the recipe is for 11 gals based on 85% efficiency and you are talking about a 5.5gal batch

I’m making the 11 gal. batch but splitting it to 2 5.5 gal batches for fermentation.

Second, you give 1 1/4 qts per pound as the numbers, did you add for grain absorbtion to that, or is this total water per pound in the mash?

1 ¼ qts./lb is the total amount of water in the mash. I have used 1 ½ qts./lb on other recipes and it was difficult to deal with.

Third, there is no saach rest temperature given or how long, did you do a 152*F 60 min. infusion mash or was it higher or lower?

I did a 60 min. rest @ ~ 155 –157. I had been told at the LHBS, like some of the people on here to go up a couple of degrees on my mash temp to help increase the body of the beer.

fourth, 120L crystal will give you a burnt sugar taste and a raisen/prune like flavor where a 60l crystal will give you carmel flavored sweetness. 2lbs of 120l is a lot to use in that type of beer

The flavor is great, for my taste. It’s just thin.

Fifth, One pk of safale 05 isn't enough yeast for 11 gallons brew.

When I split the batches, I use 1 pkg in each fermenter.

 

[OLDBREW]

OK.. now it sounds like a normal brew. My suggestion is to add carapils or malto-dextren to bring up the body if the mash temp increase didn't help. You can also thicken up the mash some using the higher sach temps.

2 lbs crystal for 11 gal batch isn't real bad.It doesn't taste like full sail does it?
What was the OG into the fermenters, and how are you splitting the boiler wort into the fermenters? any stratification going on in the boiler?
Did you get 85% efficiency like the recipe was formulated at?

 

[OLDBREW]

full sail says It’s brewed with 2-row Pale malt, Crystal and Chocolate malts. And we hop it with Mt. Hoods and Cascades. it is a malty, medium body beer

Are you using Pale Ale malt, or 2 row brewers malt? that may be the difference

 

[JimE]

OK.. now it sounds like a normal brew. My suggestion is to add carapils or malto-dextren to bring up the body if the mash temp increase didn't help. You can also thicken up the mash some using the higher sach temps.

2 lbs crystal for 11 gal batch isn't real bad.It doesn't taste like full sail does it?
What was the OG into the fermenters, and how are you splitting the boiler wort into the fermenters? any stratification going on in the boiler?
Did you get 85% efficiency like the recipe was formulated at?

Use 1/2 lb. for a 5 gal batch. Add to boil.

 

[Dwain]

O.B./JimE,

Use 1/2 lb. for a 5 gal batch. Add to boil.

Is that 1/2# of malto-dextrin or cara-pils - Dwain

 

[JimE]

O.B./JimE,


Is that 1/2# of malto-dextrin or cara-pils - Dwain

Sorry, 1/2# of malto-dextrin. It is what I put in my Belgian Tripel. It is only 5% fermentable, with the rest adding body and mouth feel.

 

[Dwain]

Sorry it's taken me so long to update. When I did this one again, I went with 155-157 mash temp. I was very careful about the volume I started with and put 5.5 gal in each fermenter. I used 1/2# of malto-dextrin. The OG numbers were pretty close (I don't have them in front of me). When I racked to secondary, there was a differnce in taste and color. One batch seemed "thinner" than the other. Because I use a 5 gal. corny keg and a 5 gal Sanke to split the batches, I know that the "thinner" batch was the first one I took out of the boil kettle. They both were very good, but one was definitly better. Maybe the last one out of the boil kettle had more heavy "goodies" and thus the different taste? I'm not sure. I have started fermenting in a 15 gal. primary so I'll note if that changes anything. Thanks for the help - Dwain

 

[pabaker34]

Strange about the two batches out the boil kettle being different. If the FG numbers are different then you will know that one had more unfermentables in it than the other. The most significant improvement I have made to my process lately is to boil my floating thermometer and note the actual reading at boil. I found that it is 7 degrees off! So now I can very accurately know my mash temp.

Paul B

 

[modernlifeisANDY]

A pound of Dextrine/Cara-Pils to that batch will help with body/mouthfeel and give you a bit more head to boot. Also, the C120 substitution will not go unnoticed - that's a huge difference in grain. I used you'd be better off using something like 1.5 lbs. of C40 and 1/2 lb. of C80 if you want a closer flavor. That much 120 will get overpowering quickly. I'd also ditch the chocolate malt just for style consistency.