Blichmann 10 Gallon MLT warped

[SpanishCastleAle]

FWIW, the 10 gal boilermaker doesn't deform/warp to any noticable degree when lifted at almost full. I've lifted mine when almost full many times (only at dough-in temps, I wouldn't lift it while really hot).

Also FWIW, I direct-fire mine all the time and do not get any scorching at all. But I'm mashing on a kitchen stove and do not crank the heat wide open. At the end of a mash I can just rinse the kettle and it's shiny stainless even on the bottom. I rarely recirculate, maybe an occasional quart at a time just to ensure all the liquid below the FB gets above it (I've always just assumed that when heating the enzymes under the FB are denatured). I stir at ~5 min. intervals during heating with an upward motion from the bottom, sort of getting the whole thing to 'roll' in the pot. I often direct-fire to mashout and usually go from the mid-high 150s to 168* F in just 5-10 minutes...with a shiny stainless bottom of the pot at the end. It can be done just don't rush it.

 

[HBHoss]

It is pretty clear in the directions that the false bottom is not intended to be in place when direct fire is applied to the bottom of the kettle.

That's not true. I have the instructions in front of me and it only says not to use the FB as a boil screen, only as a mash filter. I did find a word of caution about excessive heat causing scorching and possible damage to the bottom. I guess my burner is hotter than I thought.

 

[ArcaneXor]

I was going to eventually upgrade to Boilermakers, but I really don't like the idea of a thin-walled brewpot without three-layer bottom that will flex just by lifting it when full.

 

[HBHoss]

Even with recirculating, my last brew did have some scorching though not nearly as much as before. I'll turn down the flame even more on the next batch.
For those of you applying direct heat to the MLT, typically, how long does it take you to get to your desired mash temp for a 10 gallon batch?

 

[Catt22]

Even with recirculating, my last brew did have some scorching though not nearly as much as before. I'll turn down the flame even more on the next batch.
For those of you applying direct heat to the MLT, typically, how long does it take you to get to your desired mash temp?

It depends on the batch size, the dough in temp, the grain bill, the cirulation rate, the flame intensity and the ambient conditions. My temp ramp up rates vary from 1 to 3 degrees/minute. I can heat the strike water in the MT and hit my mash temp right away. OTOH, I frequently do step mashes doughing in at 95 F and ramping up with direct heat from there.

The potential for scorching is one of the major drawbacks of using stainless steel vessels for brewing. SS does not distribute heat very well at all and this results in concentrated hot spots where the burner flame contacts the kettle bottom. I use a 12" dia x 1/8" thick copper heat diffuser plate under my kettle to mitigate the problem. This was a major improvement, but it wasn't cheap.

 

[HBHoss]

It depends on the batch size, the dough in temp, the grain bill, the cirulation rate, the flame intensity and the ambient conditions. My temp ramp up rates vary from 1 to 3 degrees/minute. I can heat the strike water in the MT and hit my mash temp right away. OTOH, I frequently do step mashes doughing in at 95 F and ramping up with direct heat from there.

The potential for scorching is one of the major drawbacks of using stainless steel vessels for brewing. SS does not distribute heat very well at all and this results in concentrated hot spots where the burner flame contacts the kettle bottom. I use a 12" dia x 1/8" thick copper heat diffuser plate under my kettle to mitigate the problem. This was a major improvement, but it wasn't cheap.

So it could take you an hour to an hour and a half to reach 154 degrees with a typical 15 lb. grain bill? It took me an hour to go from a cold start of 60 degrees to 154 degrees while recirculating. Where did you get your copper plate?

 

[Catt22]

So it could take you an hour to an hour and a half to reach 154 degrees with a typical 15 lb. grain bill? It took me an hour to go from a cold start of 60 degrees to 154 degrees while recirculating. Where did you get your copper plate?

A 15 lb grain bill for a 6 gallon batch on my system would be about a 1.075 OG or thereabouts. I can ramp up temps much faster when brewing 6 gallons vs 12. This is simply due to the fact that I can "turn over" the entire mash volume much faster when pumping. The temp ramp rate for this batch size and grain bill would be on the higher side at about 3 deg/min, so it would only take about 20 minutes to get to 154 F a dough in at 95F. I've recently made some changes which I think may have improved the rate some, but I haven't done any timing tests since, so I can't say for sure. One of the problems with direct firing a MT is that pushing for high pumping rates can lead to the mash sticking and/or pump cavitation. The trick is to pump as fast as possible with the heat as high as possible. Some experience is required to get the balance right in order to maximize the ramp up rate and avoid sticking.

Here's a link to the copper plate source. Keep in mind that these only work well with flat bottomed kettles:

http://store.electrical-insulators-and-copper-ground-bars.com/index.html

I think I paid close to $100 for the one I have.

 

[HBHoss]

Thanks.

 

[BrewBeemer]

Ouch Catt22; for 0.094" or 11 gauge of 20" diameter copper they're price is $139.95. No wonder our electrical contractors get pissed off when we waste wire on long wire pulls. Hoss, time for some midnight country backroad manhole collecting for a burner plate.

 

[HBHoss]

Ouch Catt22; for 0.094" or 11 gauge of 20" diameter copper they're price is $139.95. No wonder our electrical contractors get pissed off when we waste wire on long wire pulls. Hoss, time for some midnight country backroad manhole collecting for a burner plate.

Too bad we don't have man holes to cover.

 

[Catt22]

Ouch Catt22; for 0.094" or 11 gauge of 20" diameter copper they're price is $139.95. No wonder our electrical contractors get pissed off when we waste wire on long wire pulls. Hoss, time for some midnight country backroad manhole collecting for a burner plate.

Yeah, and it would be even more for 0.125 material which is what I'm using. You could use aluminum instead of copper. Not quite as good, but probably close close enough I'm sure.

 

[BrewBeemer]

Just think if you had ordered .125"x 20" diameter call it 100 count 20 years ago you would still be rich selling then way cheaper than the supplier above.
At one steel plant we rewired I picked up four 24" x 24" x 2" thick squares of steel. Great for on the workbench as a pounding base, wonder how they would work as a even heat mass for a pot? Sure would take some energy to get up to temp but also rather stable once at the set temp. This would be a great addition for those Gray-Hound bus stands that have been posted.

 

[Lonnie Mac]

Just think if you had ordered .125"x 20" diameter call it 100 count 20 years ago you would still be rich selling then way cheaper than the supplier above.
At one steel plant we rewired I picked up four 24" x 24" x 2" thick squares of steel. Great for on the workbench as a pounding base, wonder how they would work as a even heat mass for a pot? Sure would take some energy to get up to temp but also rather stable once at the set temp. This would be a great addition for those Gray-Hound bus stands that have been posted.

I'll take one my friend! Can you ship USPS?

 

[HBHoss]

I'll take one my friend! Can you ship USPS?

I can't even imagine what shipping charges would be on something like that.

 

[BrewBeemer]

Scott;
with my bad back limping day to day I can't even tumble a 24" square by 2" thick slab of these hot rolled steel slabs not alone 4 of 'em I picked up free off the job site ( the pack rat in me). I would bet if a skirt were added plus gas heated this would allow for a rather cheap and even heat from a gas flame directly to the slab under the brew pot. This including using a copper disk which is now too high in dollars these days with the crazy prices of copper they're asking. This would work with a 1 barrel brew with those 2" sq/ tube frames of 1/4" wall thickness able to hold up 18 wheel big rigs. WTF on over builds? Without starting a pissing war why the hell wasn't 4130 Chromoly tubing used instead like in aircraft frames and structrures the last 65 years I ask?
Shipping charges, better to drive and pick up from a thick steel supply house.
UPS would freak out on a package of 145# with the shipping box. JMO's on the base weights. Get yor 7 barrel brewery running before the summer thirst rush starts.

 

[Catt22]

This would work with a 1 barrel brew with those 2" sq/ tube frames of 1/4" wall thickness able to hold up 18 wheel big rigs. WTF on over builds? Without starting a pissing war why the hell wasn't 4130 Chromoly tubing used instead like in aircraft frames and structrures the last 65 years I ask?

I'm with you on this BB. I've never understood the need for the extreme over design on these rigs. I'd like to see someone take the opposite approach and design a rig like you would a bridge using the lightest structural members possible. One of my friends built an SS Brutus clone. He transported it to a group brew on two occasions. It required four men and a boy to move the damn thing. Way heavier than it needed to be IMO. He recently told me that he will never be transporting it again unless forced at gunpoint and I fully understand why. Even the wooden rigs I see are often over-designed. You would think that 4 x 4, 2 x 6 and 2 x 4 lumber was the only material available.

 

[BrewBeemer]

Who'll be the first using 3/8" wall 6" box tube? A one up thing, LOL!

 

[Catt22]

Ha! In a word...titanium FTW!

 

[HBHoss]

Scott;
with my bad back limping day to day I can't even tumble a 24" square by 2" thick slab of these hot rolled steel slabs not alone 4 of 'em I picked up free off the job site ( the pack rat in me). I would bet if a skirt were added plus gas heated this would allow for a rather cheap and even heat from a gas flame directly to the slab under the brew pot. This including using a copper disk which is now too high in dollars these days with the crazy prices of copper they're asking. This would work with a 1 barrel brew with those 2" sq/ tube frames of 1/4" wall thickness able to hold up 18 wheel big rigs. WTF on over builds? Without starting a pissing war why the hell wasn't 4130 Chromoly tubing used instead like in aircraft frames and structrures the last 65 years I ask?
Shipping charges, better to drive and pick up from a thick steel supply house.
UPS would freak out on a package of 145# with the shipping box. JMO's on the base weights. Get yor 7 barrel brewery running before the summer thirst rush starts.

In order to get that 7 bbl system running I need to find a heat source for the boiler and a place to store the fermenter. I'll also need a LOT more kegs to store the brew in. I also will need a glycol chiller, a bigger pump and a larger grain mill. Just a few minor technicalities.

 

[BrewBeemer]

In order to get that 7 bbl system running I need to find a heat source for the boiler and a place to store the fermenter. I'll also need a LOT more kegs to store the brew in. I also will need a glycol chiller, a bigger pump and a larger grain mill. Just a few minor technicalities.

Yeah Scott, called MUNY and a rather large pile of it.

 

[HBHoss]

So I've got the pump running and lowered the flame and still get some scorching. Not nearly as bad but still some. I even resorted to a coarser grind of my malts (which lowered my efficiency 10%) hoping to have less flour on the bottom. Now I'm wondering if the warped bottom is hitting the false bottom and keeping the wort from flowing properly? Any thoughts on that?
I sent John Blichmann an e-mail asking the same question and still waiting on his reply.

 

[BrewBeemer]

Scott; if John Blichmann were a good PR business man plus reading this forum i'd be surprised if he didn't replace your pot free. With so mainy of his pots out there you would think if overheating the pot were a problem there would be many more with warped bottoms. My thinking with these odds you may have a defective pot. JMO.

 

[HBHoss]

Here's the reply I got from John Blichmann:
"We use ours on a recirc system and don’t have any trouble. Yes – try to pound out the warp with a rubber mallet. But I don’t think the warpage should be a problem, but if it is severe it may channel the wort to a certain flow path and leave the remaining wort stagnant leading to scorching?? Get the kettle as flat as possible, clean it well with barkeepers friend and let’s see what happens. As far as heating – you should heat about 1.5-2 F/min MAX. More than that and you will likely scorch when you reach sacc temp. And the fastest flow rate you can do without sticking (watch the level in the level gauge for a warning that you’re sticking) is better."

 

[BrewBeemer]

Here's the reply I got from John Blichmann:
"We use ours on a recirc system and don’t have any trouble. Yes – try to pound out the warp with a rubber mallet. But I don’t think the warpage should be a problem, but if it is severe it may channel the wort to a certain flow path and leave the remaining wort stagnant leading to scorching?? Get the kettle as flat as possible, clean it well with barkeepers friend and let’s see what happens. As far as heating – you should heat about 1.5-2 F/min MAX. More than that and you will likely scorch when you reach sacc temp. And the fastest flow rate you can do without sticking (watch the level in the level gauge for a warning that you’re sticking) is better."

Talk about beating around the issue, "pound out the warp" WTF!. Without one word or mentioning a possible exchange or replacement of it. With this much exposure of fellow brewing members on this forum alone not only "visitors" I call this one as bad business practice if you ask me, i'll speak my mind it's just me. For one thing Blichmann has lost my faith in their products now with your problem shall I call it i'm his number one lost coustomer, yes. There may well be others looking into other brand of manufacture also. I was saving up and looking at purchasing a 27 gallon Blichmann Fermenter, this has changed my mind. I just saved myself $799 before shipping or taxes.

 

[HBHoss]

I really like the Blichmann products too. I guess the false bottom allows so much heat to build up that it's just too much for it. My bad in not recirculating sooner. Live and learn. Hopefully it's not ruined otherwise that's a $400 mistake on my part. I also got my copper plate to help distribute the heat better.

 

[Catt22]

I really like the Blichmann products too. I guess the false bottom allows so much heat to build up that it's just too much for it. My bad in not recirculating sooner. Live and learn. Hopefully it's not ruined otherwise that's a $400 mistake on my part. I also got my copper plate to help distribute the heat better.

What size copper plate did you get and how thick is it? I think it will make a huge difference. It did for my system. IMO, the FB is not the problem. I have a friend that I sometimes brew with on his Brutus 15 clone and we haven't had scorching problems. It's best to circulate as fast as you can get away with while avoiding a stuck mash. You really need to keep the wort moving below the FB while heating.

 

[HBHoss]

What size copper plate did you get and how thick is it? I think it will make a huge difference. It did for my system. IMO, the FB is not the problem. I have a friend that I sometimes brew with on his Brutus 15 clone and we haven't had scorching problems. It's best to circulate as fast as you can get away with while avoiding a stuck mash. You really need to keep the wort moving below the FB while heating.

It's a 12" X 12" X 1/8" copper plate. It covers most of the bottom plus I've flattened the Boilermaker's bottom out some now so it should help. I'll find out next time I brew.

 

[BrewBeemer]

I would bet without that 100% contact you now have the kettle bottom to copper plate your still going to lose some heat transfer costing you longer heat up times plus more gas. I would also think those small solid contact points you have will cause hot spots. At $309 I see listed, deduct the profit Blichmann makes that pot my guess is in the $200 range or less for them to have made unless made in house. Why Blichmann would balk on this one pots profit with not just replacing it is beyond me vs the tens of thousands of dollars in sales and profits. Called good business practice with the customers and respect of the manufacture by the customers. This can be lost. If 'ol John reads this he'll want me to stop my opinions and replies. Just by the HBT members alone not counting visitors to this thread, now at 1,180 views and counting. I wonder what they are thinking now if they were on the fence about a pot purchase by manufacture by name?

 

[Catt22]

Yes, do let us know how it works for you. It would be better if the kettle bottom were not warped at all, but I think you'll be OK so long as it's not too uneven.

 

[BrewBeemer]

As the saying goes, "we need pictures".
Scott; this pot oil canned the bottom or just twisted and by how much?
One would think if it were filled to the top with water the pressure with a couple people pressing down it would flatten the bottom again. Factor in some spring back of the bottoms material or add wood shims to get it twisted back and flat again.
If Blichmann knows you hammered on it then it's classified as abused and John may never exchange it, then he's out and it's on you.
As catt said, give it a try and brew with it.