BJCP Category Quandry

[rklinck]

One of my staple brews is what I call my German American Pale Ale. To put it simply, it is an American Pale Ale but I replaced the traditional American hopes with German hop varieties (often American grown) -- primarily Spalt Select. I am considering entering some of beers in a competition to get some feedback from people other than the ones who are just happy to be drinking beer for free.

I am trying to decide whether to enter this as an APA or in the Specialty Beer category. By the letter, it meets the APA style because the description says that it is not required to have the citrusy hop flavor or aroma. My concern, however, is that judges are so conditioned to expect the citrusy hop flavor and aroma from an APA that they will simply ding my beer as being out of style. On the other hand, I am worried that if I enter it as a Specialty Beer, I may get dinged because it technically meets the definition of an APA.

Thoughts?

(By the way, I am having a similar issue with what to do with my German IPA, which is a stronger, hopped up version of my German APA).

 

[ManhattanProjectBrewing]

Straight from the style guide…

10A. American Pale Ale

Aroma: Usually moderate to strong hop aroma from dry hopping or late kettle additions of American hop varieties. A citrusy hop character is very common, but not required.

Flavor: Usually a moderate to high hop flavor, often showing a citrusy American hop character (although other hop varieties may be used).

IMHO I would focus more on the history, comments, and vital stats of this style. It sounds like you are within style of an APA but the Specialty (23) category needs to be thoroughly explained. Basically you’d have to eloquently explain why your beer is “special.” Depending on your prose ability, writing style, and knowledge of your audience 23 is certainly a possibility. The thing I find with specialty beers is that most entries don’t explain well enough the “special” nature of the beer… Make sense? Personally, I don’t feel the TYPE of hop is as important as the totality of the beer’s character when pined against the style guideline descriptions… It’s the end product that is being judged not what hops were used. Granted, this is MY opinion only…. Beer is art after all.


Cheers,

-JM

 

[rklinck]

Straight from the style guide…

10A. American Pale Ale

Aroma: Usually moderate to strong hop aroma from dry hopping or late kettle additions of American hop varieties. A citrusy hop character is very common, but not required.

Flavor: Usually a moderate to high hop flavor, often showing a citrusy American hop character (although other hop varieties may be used).

IMHO I would focus more on the history, comments, and vital stats of this style. It sounds like you are within style of an APA but the Specialty (23) category needs to be thoroughly explained. Basically you’d have to eloquently explain why your beer is “special.” Depending on your prose ability, writing style, and knowledge of your audience 23 is certainly a possibility. The thing I find with specialty beers is that most entries don’t explain well enough the “special” nature of the beer… Make sense? Personally, I don’t feel the TYPE of hop is as important as the totality of the beer’s character when pined against the style guideline descriptions… It’s the end product that is being judged not what hops were used. Granted, this is MY opinion only…. Beer is art after all.

Thanks for the feedback. I agree with everything you say. I believe my beer is within the style because it does not require the citrusy (or piney) hop flavor and aroma. My biggest concern is simply that the judges are conditioned to expect that and will turn their noses up to a pale ale that is not the traditional flavor profile.

Really, what I am hoping is that one or more of the very experienced members here (hopefully a BJCP judge) can weigh in with their thoughts.

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

Technically, a good judge shouldn't knock the beer just because it doesn't have the common citrus/pine of a typical APA, but that doesn't mean that some won't. We're s'posed to judge beers to the letter of the guidelines, and a 10a should be hoppy, but it doesn't have to have an exact hop profile (like say, BoPils, which NEEDS Saaz to be to style). I've only been a memeber of the BJCP since this past winter, so my experience is minimal, but I would say your best bet is to enter it as a 10a. The most important part of your scoresheet (to you) will be the bottom section of feedback from the judges, a good judge will let you know what he/she thinks of the hop profile if it stands out to them. Another option would be to enter the beer in both 10a and 23 (if the comp allows, which many do) and see where it scores best. Again, it sounds like you're looking more for feedback than a high score, so keep that in mind. Hope that helps.

 

[TopherM]

Does it have the IBUs of an APA?

Even the master judges aren't typically sophisticated enough to tell the difference between German and American hops, and there are certainly plenty of American hops that have similar flavor and aroma profiles as Splat. They will, however, have enough experience to pick out the basic bitterness level, and will judge the beer based on the APA IBU thresholds.

As long as you are within the IBU guidelines, I'd enter it in 10a:

http://www.bjcp.org/2008styles/style10.php

 

[dcp27]

I'd put it in 10A

Depending on your prose ability, writing style, and knowledge of your audience 23 is certainly a possibility.

ones writing ability has nothing to do with 23. in fact, if its in prose i'm scoring it harder. its best to keep it simple (base style + briefly state what makes special)

 

[rklinck]

Does it have the IBUs of an APA?

Even the master judges aren't typically sophisticated enough to tell the difference between German and American hops, and there are certainly plenty of American hops that have similar flavor and aroma profiles as Splat. They will, however, have enough experience to pick out the basic bitterness level, and will judge the beer based on the APA IBU thresholds.

As long as you are within the IBU guidelines, I'd enter it in 10a:

http://www.bjcp.org/2008styles/style10.php

Thanks for the input. Yeah, it has the IBUs. By the numbers (OG, FG, IBU, Color), it is squarely within the APA guidelines. My worry was always just about the character of the hop flavor and aroma. It is very distinct from a conventional APA. I think the judges will immediately recognize that this is not a traditional APA hopped with one of the citrusy/piney hops.

 

[Schumed]

There also the light hybrid cat ...6B maybe if the numbers are on the low side of APA....I would say no for sure on Speciality

 

[gbx]

I think the whole "entering comps to get unbiased feedback" thing is a waste of time, money and beer if your entry isn't to style (which it clearly isn't or you wouldn't be posting this). Unless it has massive process flaws the scoresheet will be filled with comments on how it doesn't match the style guidelines. If you want unbiased feedback on your brewing, enter a recipe from Brewing Classic Styles or another perfectly to style recipe.

 

[rklinck]

There also the light hybrid cat ...6B maybe if the numbers are on the low side of APA....I would say no for sure on Speciality

Definitely does not fit as a light hybrid. It is definitely a pale ale.

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

Does it have the IBUs of an APA?

Even the master judges aren't typically sophisticated enough to tell the difference between German and American hops, and there are certainly plenty of American hops that have similar flavor and aroma profiles as Splat. They will, however, have enough experience to pick out the basic bitterness level, and will judge the beer based on the APA IBU thresholds.

As long as you are within the IBU guidelines, I'd enter it in 10a:

http://www.bjcp.org/2008styles/style10.php

I disagree. I'm by no means a master judge, or even national for that matter and I can surely tell you the difference between an APA brewed with say, cascade, and one brewed with a continental hop. I'd venture to guess most other ranked judges could as well, seeing is you kinda have to be able to taste and smell things like that in order to pass the tasting part of the exam to become a member of the BJCP.

I think the whole "entering comps to get unbiased feedback" thing is a waste of time, money and beer if your entry isn't to style (which it clearly isn't or you wouldn't be posting this). Unless it has massive process flaws the scoresheet will be filled with comments on how it doesn't match the style guidelines. If you want unbiased feedback on your brewing, enter a recipe from Brewing Classic Styles or another perfectly to style recipe.

How does an American pale using German hops not match the style guidelines for cat. 10a? Sure, it's not the typical hop profile of a beer entered, but could surely be "to style".

The main point (aside from scoring well) of entering is to get feedback. If dude wants to know how well his 10a with German hops scores as a 10a, he should enter it. If he wants to see how well it will score as a 6a, he should enter it. I don't think 23 is a good category for the beer he's describing (it's going to go against a ton of BIPAs and eclectic beers there, might score well, wouldn't advance IMO), but if he wants to know how it scores there, why not?

 

[rklinck]

I think the whole "entering comps to get unbiased feedback" thing is a waste of time, money and beer if your entry isn't to style (which it clearly isn't or you wouldn't be posting this). Unless it has massive process flaws the scoresheet will be filled with comments on how it doesn't match the style guidelines. If you want unbiased feedback on your brewing, enter a recipe from Brewing Classic Styles or another perfectly to style recipe.

I appreciate this point of view, and I would never enter a beer that is clearly out of style (e.g., enter a beer that has fruit in it in any category that does not call for it). My opinion is that the beer is within style, it simply is not the predominant example. I view this as kind of like my version is not the first definition in the dictionary, but it ONE of the definitions.

It is going to cost me a grand total of $7 and two bottles of beer to include this beer among about 6 or 7 others, so I figure why not.

As for your suggestion of brewing a recipe from Brewing Classic Styles, I will leave that to others. My point is not to get someone to judge by generic brewing ability. My point is to get feedback on the beers that I brew based on my recipes.

 

[TopherM]

I disagree. I'm by no means a master judge, or even national for that matter and I can surely tell you the difference between an APA brewed with say, cascade, and one brewed with a continental hop.

Gotta stress some reading comprehension here. That's not at all what I said.

I can tell the difference in hop character of even moderately contrasting hops, and I'm not a judge at all.

What I was saying is that no judge is going to taste this guy's beer and know that it's brewed with German Splat hops as opposed to something American like Liberty or Mt. Hood or US Hallertau. They are all very very similar.

Any judge that marked off of his beer because he thought, maybe, that it was brewed with German hops would be a very bad judge.

10a. The beer should be judged completely fairly.

 

[gbx]

I appreciate this point of view, and I would never enter a beer that is clearly out of style (e.g., enter a beer that has fruit in it in any category that does not call for it). My opinion is that the beer is within style, it simply is not the predominant example. I view this as kind of like my version is not the first definition in the dictionary, but it ONE of the definitions.

It is going to cost me a grand total of $7 and two bottles of beer to include this beer among about 6 or 7 others, so I figure why not.

As for your suggestion of brewing a recipe from Brewing Classic Styles, I will leave that to others. My point is not to get someone to judge by generic brewing ability. My point is to get feedback on the beers that I brew based on my recipes.

Don't let a hater like me stop you from entering it I've entered a few that were within the style guidelines but towards the edges and all the comments were on how I could "improve" the recipe to make it a better example of the style. That's cool for the styles that are based on a single commercial example (ie. cal common or dry stout) but not the feedback I was looking for.

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

Even the master judges aren't typically sophisticated enough to tell the difference between German and American hops....
http://www.bjcp.org/2008styles/style10.php

Gotta stress some reading comprehension here.

As you were, kind sir.

And yes, I agree, 10c would be the place for this beer. Regardless of the level of any of the judges or the ability of their collective palates, the way the OP describes this beer makes me think it could potentially score well in that category.