Bitter Soda

[Owly055]

I just can't stop myself from experimenting ;-)

My project this evening is a "bitter soda" which will be brewed exactly like beer except that it will be pretty much non-alcoholic. The idea is to brew a very low gravity wort. It's in the mash as I write. Target gravity is 1.030, bitter is lightly @ about 15 IBUs and whirlpool more hops in. The boil will be very brief.

I will pitch yeast from an active fermenter, and allow only about 12 hours once I see active fermentation, just enough to get some yeast character, and perhaps half to one percent alcohol. About like Kombucha.

I will then pasteurize, taste, and sweeten if necessary using simple syrup, and force carbonate. I want a soda with almost no perceived sweetness.

Note that I do not like sweet drinks. I drink coffee, and beer, and some grapefruit juice, occasionally V8, NEVER soft drinks. I dislike the heavy sweetness of them intensely.

For a 1.5 gallon brew (to fit in one of my Tap-a-Draft systems)

1.5 pounds Munich & 2 ounces of CR120
1/2 ounce Willamette @ 10 min
1 ounce Mosaic ... whirlpool @ 160/15min

This is already in progress, but I'd be interested in peoples thoughts and suggestions. I will be sampling later in the week, and will post my results one way or the other.


H.W.

 

[iijakii]

I think you are going to be disappointed with how sweet it will be. I know from sampling some similar-gravity Milds mid-fermentation that when they're half fermented there's plenty of sugars left. I wonder if the better route would be to brew like normal and then heat a portion of it up to 170 or whatever the alcohol boils off at.

or just make a 3% mild because it's basically beer soda and delicious.

 

[Owly055]

I think you are going to be disappointed with how sweet it will be. I know from sampling some similar-gravity Milds mid-fermentation that when they're half fermented there's plenty of sugars left. I wonder if the better route would be to brew like normal and then heat a portion of it up to 170 or whatever the alcohol boils off at.

or just make a 3% mild because it's basically beer soda and delicious.

Perhaps I should bump the IBUs up?? What set me on this course was tasting the wort from yesterday's brew OG 1.049, IBU 39 unfermented, and deciding that it might make a great soda. Since it has been in the fermenter less than 24 hours, I've about decided to pull a gallon and a half of it, and pasteurize it. That brew kicked off within a few hours due to pitching right from the top of another fermenter. It will be more bitter today than yesterday.

I've just decided to up my IBUs by changing my bittering addition and bring the BU/GU into line with yesterday's brew. (I'm still in mash) Shooting for a BU/GU of about 8.

I'm trying to make a non-alcoholic, not a lawnmower beer.

H.W.

 

[joshesmusica]

I'm trying to make a non-alcoholic, not a lawnmower beer.

H.W.

What's the difference? What you're shooting for you can't serve to kids anyways. Not much of a difference between 1% and 2% and 3%. Unless you're not used to drinking.

What I would do is mash high, and mash short. 30-45 mins at 160F. This will give it body without making it overly sweet, as the higher sugars aren't as sweet as the simple ones.

Then you're definitely going to want to pasteurize it. But really the point of adding yeast in the first place, when people make homemade sodas, is in order to get some carbonation. If you're kegging it, then you just need to experiment with the mash and the boil flavor profiles, and then force carb it. If it were me I would also use all those old fashioned techniques of getting the clearest wort possible into the keg. Some kind of inline filter would probably be nice. At this point, you would have truly a truly NA malt soda.

But I really don't expect this one to come out tasting as nice as you might think. But then again, I don't really prefer the taste of unfermented wort.

 

[Owly055]

What's the difference? What you're shooting for you can't serve to kids anyways. Not much of a difference between 1% and 2% and 3%. Unless you're not used to drinking.

What I would do is mash high, and mash short. 30-45 mins at 160F. This will give it body without making it overly sweet, as the higher sugars aren't as sweet as the simple ones.

Then you're definitely going to want to pasteurize it. But really the point of adding yeast in the first place, when people make homemade sodas, is in order to get some carbonation. If you're kegging it, then you just need to experiment with the mash and the boil flavor profiles, and then force carb it. If it were me I would also use all those old fashioned techniques of getting the clearest wort possible into the keg. Some kind of inline filter would probably be nice. At this point, you would have truly a truly NA malt soda.

But I really don't expect this one to come out tasting as nice as you might think. But then again, I don't really prefer the taste of unfermented wort.

My brew of last night is in the fermenter with a pitch of top crop from my brew of Monday, which is at high krausen. I overshot gravity a bit, and settled on 20 IBUs. Tomorrow, I'll pasteurize and go to cold crash with finings for 3 or 4 days, then transfer to a Tap-a-Draft.

Of all the pets one may have, a pet peeve is the worst ;-)..... but I have one. That is that virtually all cold drinks except water that are commercially available are sweet, and usually offensively cloyingly sweet. The only drinks I find tolerable while traveling are my own coffee made in the car and water, occasionally some grapefruit juice or V8. Decent kombucha works also. We are living in a sugar obsessed society. The choices are sugar, alcohol, and caffeine. I love the flavor and aroma of hops.

Meanwhile back at the ranch, I pulled 2 gallons out of my brew of Monday into a stock pot and am cooking the alcohol out of it at about 180F, stirring regularly.

I had a hop soda at Yakima Valley Hops last summer, and it was good, but like every other soda, had too much sweetness, and zero malt flavor. Basically sweetened carbonated hop tea. I'm trying to do this more or less with less sweetness, mostly from malt, and some bittering. A hopback and counterflow chiller, cooling starting from about 160F wort using leaf hops, might bring in some real flavor and aroma, perhaps then dry hopping by circulating the cooled wort at room temp through a hop back with a pump for 24 hours or so.... There are lots of possibilities.

H.W.

 

[Owly055]

This morning, I'm drinking my first home brewed non-alcoholic brew. Not the one I started this thread with, but the one standard brew I was brewing alongside it, of which I pulled a bit less than 2 gallons and spent a couple of hours cooking off the alcohol. It had been in the fermeter about 48 hours at the time.

This brew was 4 gallons had an OG of 1.053, 44% each of wheat and two row, 3.7% CR 180, and some sugar. Bittered with Nugget, an ounce each of Mosaic and Chinook @ 5 min, and an additional ounce of Mosaic whirlpool 15 min @ 160. A 4 gallon brew with 39 IBUs. It promises to be an excellent pale ale.

When cooking the alcohol off, I sampled and decided it needed some sweetening to offset the sharp bitterness, and added 1 C sugar......... a mistake, as it left me with a perceptible sweetness, though not excessive, most people would probably like it.

The product chilled and carbonated has excellent flavor and I don't miss the alcohol at all, though it is a bit heavy.

Lesson learned..... start with a lower gravity brew, keep IBUs lower and resist back sweetening.

Lesson 2: Fermentation contributes flavor even if for a mere 2 days

Lesson 3: Non-Alcoholic beer can be good....this is good if not perfect.

H.W.

 

[joshesmusica]

Regarding lesson 2: the first two days are when most of the off-flavors are produced. So cutting it short is gonna leave you with plenty. Remember there's a clean up phase at the end of a healthy ferment.

Regarding lesson 3: how can it be "good if not perfect" when your lesson 1 had 3 different things you would do differently, and lesson two gave you off-flavors? Haha

 

[day_trippr]

[...]Regarding lesson 3: how can it be "good if not perfect" when your lesson 1 had 3 different things you would do differently, and lesson two gave you off-flavors? Haha

It's a sliding scale...

Cheers!

 

[BGBC]

my own coffee made in the car

Do you have a coffee machine in your car?

 

[sablesurfer]

I have a 1% beer sitting in secondary on dry hops right now. I attempted to brew up the Brew Dog Nanny State, but because of the way I ordered my grains at the HBS...I ended up having to double the grain load.

Normal Nanny State is .5%. Someone replied to my post that I have now made an Imperial Nanny State....LOL. I like that. OG = 1.014, expected FG = 1.004.

Couple of things...1)Yes, yeast needs it's whole life cycle to contribute all of its expected flavors results. 2) Pasteurizing and back sweetening sound like a lot of work so why not start by aiming at your final gravity? 3) Caramel and crystals will add sweetness, and oats/wheat/rye will add body so that you don't end up with a watery mess.

My sample from primary was WAY bitter! But then Brew Dog did advertise it that way. :-D At one week (super tiny krausen, it was 'aww cute' kind of krausen, lol) it was within 2 points of FG. Transferred to a keg with dry hops and bumped the temp up to help finish. This weekend I will put down in basement to rest for a week and start carbing it.

 

[Owly055]

Do you have a coffee machine in your car?

I have a device that heats water, and make my own coffee bags at home.....I don't care for the commercial ones, so I've formulated what I want.


H.W.

 

[Owly055]

Regarding lesson 2: the first two days are when most of the off-flavors are produced. So cutting it short is gonna leave you with plenty. Remember there's a clean up phase at the end of a healthy ferment.

Regarding lesson 3: how can it be "good if not perfect" when your lesson 1 had 3 different things you would do differently, and lesson two gave you off-flavors? Haha

"Off Flavors"? I said nothing about "off flavors"..... nor are there any apparent off flavors. I wish you were here to try a sample. Lesson 1 involves a single objective, which is to reduce body and sweetness without having overwhelming IBUs. This brew is fairly well balanced flavor wise.... body/sweetness versus bittering. I'm looking at moving toward a lighter crisper brew that still tastes like a pale ale.

H.W.

 

[Owly055]

Sometimes I'm a tad slow ;-) I suddenly realized that simple dilution was a way to significantly improve my product. It maintains the balance, and it is fairly well balanced, reduces the body / sweetness at the same time. I drew another glass, and diluted it about 20%..... I like the result.


H.W.

 

[joshesmusica]

Lesson 2: Fermentation contributes flavor even if for a mere 2 days

"Off Flavors"? I said nothing about "off flavors"..... nor are there any apparent off flavors. I wish you were here to try a sample. Lesson 1 involves a single objective, which is to reduce body and sweetness without having overwhelming IBUs. This brew is fairly well balanced flavor wise.... body/sweetness versus bittering. I'm looking at moving toward a lighter crisper brew that still tastes like a pale ale.

H.W.

My fault. When I read that "fermentation contributes flavor" and that it's a "lesson learned," I assume you meant off-flavors. Especially for a NA pale ale or IPA, where I wouldn't want any yeast flavor contributions.

One other thing I just thought of when pasteurizing, what temp were you doing that at, and I wonder at what temp the flash temps of all of the beneficial flavor compounds would be?

 

[Owly055]

My fault. When I read that "fermentation contributes flavor" and that it's a "lesson learned," I assume you meant off-flavors. Especially for a NA pale ale or IPA, where I wouldn't want any yeast flavor contributions.

One other thing I just thought of when pasteurizing, what temp were you doing that at, and I wonder at what temp the flash temps of all of the beneficial flavor compounds would be?

The hop and malt flavors are intense enough that no "off flavors" are detectable. They may be there, but if they are, they are well masked.

I have a packet of Belle Saison on hand, and plan to warm ferment a saison hopped primarily with Nugget, doing this to it. I will pitch directly into the wort, at about 90F, and hold that temp for a couple of days, then cook off the alcohol in an attempt to get some funky saison flavor inn a non-alcoholic brew.

I cooked off alcohol at right around 180 for several hours.

I have since "lightened" things up considerably by dilution, with good effect.... I'm not one to refrain from modifying a finished brew, in fact I recently took a brew that I felt had to strong of a flavor, and bottled the stock version and another that was cut with approximately 10% water. In an unscientific taste test, the conclusion was 100% in favor of the "lightened" brew. Both were bottle conditioned in this case.

I am currently cooking off the remainder of the brew I made he NA out of for a second go. It went into the fermenter Monday, and currently shows 4.5%. Left alone it would finish at about 6%. The first go should have started around 2-2.5%, though I didn't take a gravity reading. This will be cooked and stirred for a few hours at 180, no back sweetening this time. If sweetening is needed, it will be done in the Tap-a-Draft with simple syrup after determining how much in a glass.

It is a cloudy brew, though I did use gelatin finings in the cold crash. It may be something I have to live with unless I choose to filter.




H.W.

 

[Owly055]

Note that in the second attempt, I added water so now the proportion is 75% beer, 25% water, which is approximately the proportion I used in the first trial, but I added it while the brew was 180F from cooking off the alcohol. No back sweetening was done.


H.W.

 

[Owly055]

Waiting for warm weather... I'm eager to do a non alcoholic Saison fermented in the 90's with Belle Saison........

 

[joshesmusica]

To be honest, that sounds horrible. Haha but I'm a saison hater.

 

[Owly055]

I'm now drinking the first glass of the brew I designed specifically as a non-alcoholic beer, not an ale I denatured as an afterthought. This brew had no dilution, or backsweetening, it was simply fermented cooked off, and carbonated. It came out very well. The original recipe consisted of 92% Munich 10, and 8% CR120, and was hopped with Willamette and Mosaic, with Willamette as the "bittering hop", even though Willamette is a 4.5 AA. It was added at 7 minutes for 20 IBUs. The same amount of Mosaic was added as a whirlpool 160/15. This one was fermented for 3 days, the alcohol cooked off at 180, cold crashed for a few days, and then carbonated.

It lacks the sweetness that the previous brew that I back sweetened had, but is distinctly malty and slightly caramely. The low OG kept the body lighter and crisper, and the bittering comes through nicely, and along with the fairly heavy carbonation, makes up for the lack of alcohol fairly well. It definitely is not as heavy and rich as the previous brew.

Willamette and Mosaic pair very well, and I frequently use them together. The other brew used Mosaic with Centennial and Nugget, a combination I will repeat, as it works quite well also. The problem is the availability of Mosaic, which like Amarillo, and Nelson, seems to be sold out fairly quickly. It's rather unusual for the things I like to become popular. Mosaic and Nelson have been two of my favorite hops for some time now, and they seem suddenly to have caught on.


H.W.