BIAB Question

[amingo]

I just brewed 2 batches on Saturday and got 80-85% efficiency using method #1. I also squeezed the hell out of the grain bags.

 

[el_caro]

I just brewed 2 batches on Saturday and got 80-85% efficiency using method #1. I also squeezed the hell out of the grain bags.

What water volume to grain weight ratio did you use for the mash?
Can you post grain weight, mash water volume and sparge water volume. Did you teabag the sparge or just pour the sparge water over the suspended bag?
How long did you mash?

 

[stux]

Nice work Stux.
Assuming you had a large enough pot to mash with full volume BIAB, would you do a mash-out or just mash and immediately squeeze and dump the grain?

These days I always do a mashout. It's so easy and I believe it's quite beneficial

There is virtually no time wasted as I heat the mash to mashout, wait a few minutes, then raise and start the boil.

As the wort is coming to the boil I'm squeezing the bag. (suspended by 2:1 pulley) and I'll leave it hanging for maybe the first 30 mins, dumping it into a bucket when convenient

Now, there's a theory that the mashout is more beneficial in biab because it's a slow ramp, and your basically giving the enzymes one last chance to convert everything rapidly as you ramp past there windows. Also it helps the runoff.

I do not raise the bag when I apply heat. Rather I use a cake rack and agitation

 

[1MadScientist]

Well, as far as I'm aware, BIABrewer has always advocated Into Boil/Into Kettle etc efficiency, as that doesn't vary greatly from brewer to brewer, where as the Into Fermenter efficiency greatly depends on individual brewers practises and equipment

The thing is with Full-volume No Sparge BIAB the Mash Efficiency and Into Boil and End of Boil Efficiencies should all be about the same. Which means if you measure your gravity pre and post boil along with your volumes you get a neat double-check on your efficiency.

Thanks for clarifying that, that makes sense. I will make a point to do this.

I'm looking forward to hearing from you again.

 

[amingo]

What water volume to grain weight ratio did you use for the mash?
Can you post grain weight, mash water volume and sparge water volume. Did you teabag the sparge or just pour the sparge water over the suspended bag?
How long did you mash?

Each batch was 6lbs of grains in 2 gallons of water for a grain thickness of 1.25 qt/lb. Mashed in at 163F for a 150F rest for 60 minutes (end temp 145F). Dunk/teabag sparged in 4 gallons at 170F for 10 minutes. Put grain bag in strainer on top of kettle and pressed with all of my weight with a metal lid until I couldn't squeeze anything more out of it.

These were partial mash recipes and I exceeded my OG after adding the called-for amounts of DME. According to BeerPal calculations, my efficiencies were 83-85%.

 

[el_caro]

Each batch was 6lbs of grains in 2 gallons of water for a grain thickness of 1.25 qt/lb. Mashed in at 163F for a 150F rest for 60 minutes (end temp 145F). Dunk/teabag sparged in 4 gallons at 170F for 10 minutes. Put grain bag in strainer on top of kettle and pressed with all of my weight with a metal lid until I couldn't squeeze anything more out of it.

These were partial mash recipes and I exceeded my OG after adding the called-for amounts of DME. According to BeerPal calculations, my efficiencies were 83-85%.

Thanks Amingo

 

[amingo]

Thanks Amingo

No problem.
Edit: I use BrewPal, not BeerPal.

 

[tonyolympia]

I've been thinking of incorporating an infusion mashout step into an (almost) full-volume BIAB process. Can anyone address the infusion / slow ramp options, specifically why an infusion of boiling water would or wouldn't be a good idea?

 

[el_caro]

I've been thinking of incorporating an infusion mashout step into an (almost) full-volume BIAB process. Can anyone address the infusion / slow ramp options, specifically why an infusion of boiling water would or wouldn't be a good idea?

The options as I see it are to either remove the bag while raising the temperature or leave it in like Stux does and heat and stir until mashout temperature is reached. I suspect lifting and returning the bag will be a bit more hit and miss with hitting your 170°F mashout temperature.

Some full volume BIABaggers seem to mash for longer(90mins) and forgo the mashout step without any significant loss of efficiency. Others would say it is no big deal to slowly ramp up the temperature to 170°F and that it will probably give you a few more points efficiency.

In respect to raising the temperature for mash-out there is no problem with adding boiling(or near boiling) water slowly while stirring the mash until 170°F mashout temperature is reached. I would personally prefer to be a bit under temperature than risk going above 170°F as that could lead to astringency due to tannin extraction.

 

[pianobrew]

I have heard a few of the leaders of BIAB brewing on various podcasts talk about it and it seems like the big thing that is unique to the process is full volume brewing. Meaning ALL of the water used for the brew is added at the very beginning. The one guy (I forget his name) even said that if you don't do this you are not employing BIAB fully but rather a hybrid brewing process. Obviously, this is fine and even necessary due to equipment size at times. However, if you have the room for doing this, I don't see why you wouldn't. Why "dunk sparge"? What is the difference between the mash water and another pot of water? The grains do not care. If they release their sugar, they will do so in your thin mash quite effectively at mash out temps. Also, the more water you use in the beginning the better your mash will be at maintaining temp because of the more water mass.

 

[Xaphoeous]

Will 11 pounds of grains and 6.5 gallons of water fit in an 8 gallon pot? How much water do you need in order to come up with about 5.5 gallons post-boil to go into the fermenter?

 

[pianobrew]

I would use a total of 7.5 gallons of water. You can probably fit 6.5 gallons of water with the grains in you pot and just add water after you take out the grains.

 

[tonyolympia]

Will 11 pounds of grains and 6.5 gallons of water fit in an 8 gallon pot?

Visit the Green Bay Rackers site and use the "Can I Mash It?" calculator: http://rackers.org/calcs.shtml/

How much water do you need in order to come up with about 5.5 gallons post-boil to go into the fermenter?

This will depend in part on grain absorption, on your boil-off rate, and on trub loss in kettle. Count on about .11 gallons of water to be absorbed per pound of grain. For boil-off and kettle loss, I'd run a trial and see how your system works.

E.g.: in "Brewing Classic Styles," Jamil Zainasheff starts with 7 gallons boil volume, ends with 6 gallons, leaves .5 gallon behind in the kettle, and transfers 5.5 to the fermenter.

 

[cyclonite]

I've done all three methods, but mostly #1 because of the efficiency bump that I get, and the fact that I was fairly limited by my pot size initially (one 8 gallon and one 5 gallon pot). I only did #3 twice because I did not see any significant efficiency bump (1-2%). I now have a larger pot, and tried #2 again and got around the same efficiency as I did before with that method.

Here are the numbers I've seen:
1) 90, 94, 94, 88, 96, 89, 98, 95
2) 76, 79, 82, 83
3) 78, 83

What I've noticed: efficiency decreases fairly proportionally with OG. If I am doing > 1.085 ish, my efficiency will drop to the low 90's or high 80's with method #1. The two above in the upper 80's with method #1 are a Belgian Strong Dark Ale and Wee Heavy, 1.090 and 1.088. The one at 98% is a Blonde, 1.045. The others are around 1.055 - 1.075.

So, I am back to doing #1 because of efficiency and the fact that it's easy. I can heat up my "sparge" water in my separate pot in the kitchen while I am draining and first wort hopping in my main kettle. I'll heat up the water to mashout temps in the sparge kettle, and combine sparge and mashout for ~ 10 minutes in that kettle while bringing the main kettle to boil. I'll then squeeze the bag and add the second runnings into the main kettle and do the boil. During cleanup, I use the second kettle (and a bucket) to capture warm water from my immersion cooler, which I use for cleanup (so my hands don't freeze in the winter). I then water all my trees with the water after cleanup .

BTW, crush made a huge difference in efficiency - I gained roughly 5-8% from getting my own mill vs. my crush from the LHBS.

 

[el_caro]

So, I am back to doing #1 because of efficiency and the fact that it's easy. I can heat up my "sparge" water in my separate pot in the kitchen while I am draining and first wort hopping in my main kettle. I'll heat up the water to mashout temps in the sparge kettle, and combine sparge and mashout for ~ 10 minutes in that kettle while bringing the main kettle to boil. I'll then squeeze the bag and add the second runnings into the main kettle and do the boil.

Thanks for sharing that info.

What water volume to grain weight ratio did you use for the mash?
Can you post grain weight, mash water volume and sparge water volume.
How long did you mash?

 

[cyclonite]

Thanks for sharing that info.

What water volume to grain weight ratio did you use for the mash?
Can you post grain weight, mash water volume and sparge water volume.
How long did you mash?

My pleasure! My ratio varies a bit, but I usually mash with 5-5.5 gallons and sparge with 2 gallons. For a typical batch, this equates to around 2-2.2 quarts/lb for the grist. The grist will be pretty thick when you sparge, but it's pretty amazing how much more you can get out of it. I almost always mash for an hour, unless I am really out there on temp for a particular recipe.

 

[el_caro]

Will 11 pounds of grains and 6.5 gallons of water fit in an 8 gallon pot? How much water do you need in order to come up with about 5.5 gallons post-boil to go into the fermenter?

You could download a free software program like BREWMATE to help you with volumes and temperatures etc.

 

[el_caro]

Today I did an AG of BM's Centennial Blonde using method #1 which involved mashing 4.03Kg of grain in 13L water in a 16.5L s/s stockpot. Chose this method because the 16.5L s/s stockpot fits nicely inside the preheated oven and held temperature within 0.3°C for the 60 minute mash.
I dunk sparged the bag in 14 Litres of water in my 36L s/s stockpot(kettle) for 10 mins. Added the mash liquid and bag drainings to the kettle and ended up with 24 Litres Pre-Boil volume at an SG of 1.041 which if my calculation is correct gave an efficiency of 80.5%. I used Brewers Friend - Brewhouse Efficiency Calculator.
Hope it turns out as good as previous batches of this recipe as everyone who tries it loves it.

 

[1MadScientist]

Well, I'm getting 99.5% conversion efficiency anyway, not much room to improve there.

a No Sparge Full Volume BIAB will get you about 83% into the boil efficiency if you squeeze the bag.

You could sparge and maybe reduce your grain requirements by half a pound or something...

But once you go no-sparge, you realize what a PITA a sparge step is

Its only when you try to do a Maxi brew that a sparge really comes into its own as you will be bumping your Into Boil efficiency from 60-70% to 80%

The BIABrewer.info method is :

1) Full Volume Mash for 90 minutes. Because the mash is thinner, it can take longer to convert
2) Mashout + Squeeze. Helps efficiency
3) Boil for 90 minutes. More boil-off gives you more Mash water which gets you more efficiency too.

This will get you about 83% Into Boil for normal gravity 5 gallon brews.

I'm pretty disappointed in yesterdays brew day, now the brew before I got ~80% efficiency with 14.25# grain, but yesterday I got ~60-65% with 18# grain. I added 1 extra quart (1 lt) of water to offset grain absorption and that was it. I noticed a thicker mash than normal. I hit my pre-boil volume.

I do the #3 method on this thread (full volume mash). I did a 60 minute mash and a 60 minute boil.

I must of hit the in-efficiency wall. What would the max. efficiency be for an 18# grain bill? I would boil off 2 quarts (2 lt) more in a 90 minute boil, so if I added this amount more next time to get a thinner mash and mash for 90 minutes, is that about the best I can do? I only got a 1.077 OG.

 

[stux]

You can use the calculator at this link to work it out

BIABrewer.info • View topic - A New Approach to BIAB Calculus using Conversion Efficiency

It's only metric currently, but I think if you play some what-if games it will confirm your results. You will also be able to see how much of a difference the sparging makes

 

[Prymal]

Here is my entire Full Volume with Mashout BIAB process in 27 easy steps. (HAHA that seems like a lot)

1) Use Beersmith 2.0 to create recipe and calculate full volume of water needed for brew day.
2) Measure out water needed into gallon jugs from my in home Reverse Osmosis water filtration system.
3) Pour water into Keggle and start heating water to mash temp.
4) Double Crush Grain - Run grain through The Barley Crusher on the standard setting. Catch the grain in a bucket. Remove filled bucket and put a second bucket under the Barley Crusher. Run grain through the Barley Crusher again.
5) Add water treatment chemicals (Gypsum & Calcium Chloride).
6) Pour grain into water when it reaches the mash temp.
7) Stir grain thoroughly with the heat still on until the mash temp levels out at the desired temp usually ranging from 150 - 156, depending on the beer.
8) Cover Keggle with lid and old sleeping bag to insulate.
9) Check mash temp at 30 minutes (turn flame back on if temp dropped more than 2 degrees and stir constantly while heating to prevent scorching).
10) Check temp at 60 minutes (turn flame back on if temp dropped more than 2 degrees and stir constantly while heating to prevent scorching).
11) At 75 minutes turn flame on to start mash out, stir constantly while heating to prevent scorching and to ensure even heat distribution.
12) Pull grain bag when temp of the grain reaches 168 and turn off the flame.
13) Hold grain bag over wort to let drain for about 5 minutes.
14) Transfer bag to 22 qt pot with steamer tray and squeeze like hell.
15) Pour extracted wort into boil kettle.
16) Turn the flame back on.
17) Squeeze bag one more time and pour the liquid into the boil kettle before the first hop addition.
18) Boil length depends on weather conditions (just learned that humidity is a bitch). I now boil based on volume more then based on a specific time. Boil until Pre-Boil volume is reached add first hop addition.
19) When the liquid volume reaches 6 gallons add 15 minute addition.
20) Put wort chiller into boil after 15 minute hop addition.
21) Add 5 minute addition at 5.75 gallons.
22) Flame out 5 minutes after 5 min hop addition.
23) Turn on wort chiller and wait.
24) Empty wort into fermentor.
25) Put fermentor into swamp cooler.
26) Pitch yeast once wort is below 65 degrees.
27) Wait a month or so then bottle or keg.

 

[1MadScientist]

18) Boil length depends on weather conditions (just learned that humidity is a bitch). I now boil based on volume more then based on a specific time. Boil until Pre-Boil volume is reached add first hop addition.

27 steps sounds hard, hehe.

Yeah, I go by sight too, sight glass that is. I've been hitting my pre-boil 60 minute volumes with software, a grain absorption factor and squeezing. I may try a 90+ minute boil on a big beer to increase efficiency; I would add any first hop additions at my known starting height I use for 60's.

 

[Parkinson1963]

Brew in a Bag, also known as BIAB

As simple as I can make it


Equipment List

1 Pot , with lid, at least 10 gallons in volume (I use a keggle)
2 Bag, swiss voile (mine is 1.5' wide by .2.5' high)
3 Mash Paddle
4 Heat source
5 Thermometer
6 Insulation (old comforter, blankets, sleeping bag, etc)

The Bag
A lot of talk is generated on this simple thing.
What you are making is a pillow case out of mesh.
In fact a new washed pillow case (poly cotton/polyester) will work quite well, just not as efficient.

Best material so far, Swiss voile (fabric stores carry it).
The material comes in 5' widths so 1/2 yard will make a bag.
Use of sewing machine and ten minutes will make a bag, ask your mommy, girl friend, sister, etc
If no sewing machine a needle and thread will do (about ½ to 1 hour)
A draw string closure will be nice, but not necessary.
Also I believe a 3' by 3' square of the material will make a bag, with no sewing. Just push the material into the pot with 4 spring clamps holding up the edges (I have not tried this yet).

The Grains
A fine crush is best for BIAB, I use a 0.5mm (0.02”) gap on my barley crusher mill.
Some flour is fine and expected.


Procedure

for a five gallon batch

1. Add 7.5 gallons of water to the pot.
2. Begin heating
3. When to about 5deg f less than the mash temp add the bag and the grains
4. Stir the grain with your mash paddle well, no lumps.
5. Keep heating and stirring until your mash temp is reached (~152f)
6. Turn off heat
7. Put lid on pot and insulate
8. Leave alone for 60 to 90 minutes
9. Remove insulation
10. Apply heat and stir until mash out temp reached (~168c)
11. Shut off heat
12. Lift up bag, drain, squeeze, drain, squeeze,drain, repeat as necessary I try to get every drop.
13. Apply heat bring to boil, add hops, cool, pitch yeast, etc

With the above equipment and method I get ~75% efficiency, same as my three vessel system.

There are lots of room for modifications to above method, knock your self out.

However in my opinion keeping it simple is what BIAB is about

“It's dead easy” Uncle Dennis, 40+ year beer maker

 

[Parkinson1963]

Oh I forgot the "No chill" Steps.

14. At end of boil drain kettle in to 6 gallon Jerry can.
15. squeeze out air (use insulated gloves) seal.
16. leave in fermenting area overnight.
17. Next day pour into fermentor , pitch yeast.


With BIAB and no chill the brew day is just 3.5 hours long, 1/2 hour next day to pitch yeast.

 

[el_caro]

With BIAB and no chill the brew day is just 3.5 hours long, 1/2 hour next day to pitch yeast.

It took me just under 5 hours to do the whole process including immersion chilling and clean up on my recent brew. My stove top heating takes about 15-20 mins to get water from sparge to rolling boil unfortunately and 20 mins to get from ambient to mash temp.

 

[stux]

Oh I forgot the "No chill" Steps.

14. At end of boil drain kettle in to 6 gallon Jerry can.
15. squeeze out air (use insulated gloves) seal.
16. leave in fermenting area overnight.
17. Next day pour into fermentor , pitch yeast.


With BIAB and no chill the brew day is just 3.5 hours long, 1/2 hour next day to pitch yeast.

"14. At end of boil drain kettle in to 6 gallon Jerry can."

sanitized jerry can

"15. squeeze out air (use insulated gloves) seal."

you should tip the jerry on its side to pasteurise the lid area

I always squeeze the jerrys/cubes against a wall with my knee, with a towel over it (protection). holding it at an angle until I just get some liquid coming out... then I splash with sanitizer to rinse any spills off.


just pitched a no-chill brew which was in the cube for 9 months... sampling great so far )

 

[1MadScientist]

I'm pretty disappointed in yesterdays brew day, now the brew before I got ~80% efficiency with 14.25# grain, but yesterday I got ~60-65% with 18# grain. I added 1 extra quart (1 lt) of water to offset grain absorption and that was it. I noticed a thicker mash than normal. I hit my pre-boil volume.

I do the #3 method on this thread (full volume mash). I did a 60 minute mash and a 60 minute boil.

I must of hit the in-efficiency wall. What would the max. efficiency be for an 18# grain bill? I would boil off 2 quarts (2 lt) more in a 90 minute boil, so if I added this amount more next time to get a thinner mash and mash for 90 minutes, is that about the best I can do? I only got a 1.077 OG.

Joy cometh in the morning! I got 73% efficiency. After looking at the photo I took I realized it was at the 6 gallon mark of my bucket.

 

[Parkinson1963]

"sanitized jerry can"

Why would I sanitize a jerry can I am pouring boiling wort into. Rinsed out yes, sanitized no.

I also make sure all parts of the jerry can come in contact with the boiling wort to make sure every thing is sanitized.

 

[1MadScientist]

You can use the calculator at this link to work it out

BIABrewer.info • View topic - A New Approach to BIAB Calculus using Conversion Efficiency

It's only metric currently, but I think if you play some what-if games it will confirm your results. You will also be able to see how much of a difference the sparging makes

That's a nice spreadsheet Stux. I read the whole thread too. I'll wait until you add the US conversion drop down. I'm also looking forward to use the completed "The Calculator".

 

[1MadScientist]

The thing is with Full-volume No Sparge BIAB the Mash Efficiency and Into Boil and End of Boil Efficiencies should all be about the same. Which means if you measure your gravity pre and post boil along with your volumes you get a neat double-check on your efficiency.

stux, I just finished a brew day making a munich dunkel and I carefully measured my volumes and gravity both pre and post boil. I was wondering if I got 'a neat double-check'. How do you calcuate efficiency with those numbers?

My pre-boil was 1.047 @ 6.875 gal (26.02 L)
My post boil was 1.055 @ 5.625 gal (21.29 L)