BIAB Myths and Misconceptions

[AnthonyUK]

So you agree with J Mundy's (BIAB purist's, I'm guessing tongue in cheek) remark, that its not BIAB if you're sparging.

Okeydokey. ????


Just out of curiosity, what is it then?

I'm not sure it was meant that way.
I don't want to get into semantics but sparging with full volume mashing, unless you are carefull and know what you are doing is more likely to raise the pH and extract unwanted compounds. It isn't necessary unless you want to save a dollar in grain, will not increase your wort quality and takes more time so the recommendation is not to do it. It was only those people advocating high efficiency numbers that led to BIAB sparging.

 

[gbx]

I'm going to hope that you're, again, (half) joking; otherwise, that last part is completely ludicrous. Not to mention that "medal chasing" is just as successful with extract brewing as it is all grain. You're just a little jokester aren't you

Firstly, I'm a hardcore BIABer (80+ batches since i gave up the mash tun) and I have no intentions to "upgrade" but when is the last time a ninkasi award winner was an extract brewer? How many NHC finalists were extract brewers? (not many this decade). How many of those are BIABers? How many of them are even mashing in cooler mash tun? Yeah you can win medals at a local comp with crappy judges against other extract brewers but its a completely different thing to be competing for national titles. Those types are not BIABing because when you get to that level you are brewing an insane amount and attempting to control every thing in your process- you aren't going to settle for +/- .5C mash temp and losing a degree per hour when you mash. They all have 3 vessel recirculating systems. Maybe its possible to make just as good a beer BIAB but it is a lot more effort to be repeatable which is necessary if you are going to go for titles (not just the occasional medal). The fact is the hardcore medal chaser brewers are not brewing that way.

 

[pricelessbrewing]

I'm not sure it was meant that way.
I don't want to get into semantics but sparging with full volume mashing, unless you are carefull and know what you are doing is more likely to raise the pH and extract unwanted compounds. It isn't necessary unless you want to save a dollar in grain, will not increase your wort quality and takes more time so the recommendation is not to do it. It was only those people advocating high efficiency numbers that led to BIAB sparging.

I have to disagree with all of this entirely except for the comment about mash PH, but mash PH is important for all brewers IMO.

YOUR recommendation is not to do it*

 

[Gavin C]

I'm not sure it was meant that way.
I don't want to get into semantics but sparging with full volume mashing, unless you are carefull and know what you are doing is more likely to raise the pH and extract unwanted compounds. It isn't necessary unless you want to save a dollar in grain, will not increase your wort quality and takes more time so the recommendation is not to do it. It was only those people advocating high efficiency numbers that led to BIAB sparging.

You probably should explore the process more. By definition full-volume mashing involves a zero volume sparge. Mash pH should be managed for all mashes regardless of technique.

I agree sparging is not necessary. I don't sparge. I am however an advocate for consistent and high efficiency numbers. No sparge methods and predictable high (a relative term I suppose) efficiency are not mutually exclusive. Similarly pH issues, if one is cognizant of them and takes the appropriate corrective measures, particular with respect to thinner mashes, can be managed effectively to the beer's benefit.

 

[Gavin C]

Firstly, I'm a hardcore BIABer (80+ batches since i gave up the mash tun) and I have no intentions to "upgrade" but when is the last time a ninkasi award winner was an extract brewer? How many NHC finalists were extract brewers? (not many this decade). How many of those are BIABers? How many of them are even mashing in cooler mash tun? Yeah you can win medals at a local comp with crappy judges against other extract brewers but its a completely different thing to be competing for national titles. Those types are not BIABing because when you get to that level you are brewing an insane amount and attempting to control every thing in your process- you aren't going to settle for +/- .5C mash temp and losing a degree per hour when you mash. They all have 3 vessel recirculating systems. Maybe its possible to make just as good a beer BIAB but it is a lot more effort to be repeatable which is necessary if you are going to go for titles (not just the occasional medal). The fact is the hardcore medal chaser brewers are not brewing that way.

Where do you get your stats on Ninkasi award winners and contenders and their brewing style?


This years Ninkasi winner Mark Schoppe featured in both competitions I recently entered here in Texas. He enters a ton of beers and is fully open about his process. He does small batch brews with a technique he knows well no doubt and uses a carpet bomb strategy to maximize his medal haul. Just as an example his entry fees in the recent comp i was in I would estimate would have been close to or in excess of $100.

Nothing wrong with what he is trying to do, but to assume he is using some 3 vessel recirculating setup for 1-2 gallon batches is inane. Read his great interview in the recent issue of Zymurgy (I think it was in). The one with all the NHC winning recipes.

I'm not sure what planet your brewing on but +/- 5c mash temps are nowhere near acceptable regardless of technique. I can nail it to a fraction of a degree. [Edit, reread you wrote .5C, disregard. +/- 0.5 degree would be entirely acceptable. With measurement error on a very good thermometers at +/-0.4C it's largely impractical to be more accurate.] Just takes bit of careful planning but is not hard. I have no doubt Schoppe is doing something comparable. They guy is a legend but he is homebrewing just like you and me. Granted it would seem he is brewing primarily for comps but that is what he wants to do so good luck to him.

The judges don't care or know if a beer is made on a 3 vessel HERMs or a simple 1 gallon BIAB setup mashed in the oven, or a kit and kilo brew. The only factor in play is the quality of the beer in the anonymous bottle and how best it conforms to the style guidelines.

In short. Your talking utter nonsense. read his interview. Small batch brewing at its finest.

 

[AnthonyUK]

I am however an advocate for consistent and high efficiency numbers.

I gathered that

If you are able to provide any evidence why you should do this then I'm happy to listen and adapt my process. The overwhelming evidence elsewhere though is hard for me to ignore and I have to say that my own experience fully supports this from both a quality perspective and time efficiency which is the balance I seek.

 

[AnthonyUK]

I have to disagree with all of this entirely except for the comment about mash PH, but mash PH is important for all brewers IMO.

YOUR recommendation is not to do it*

You disagree that it takes more time

The recommendation isn't mine. I picked it up from Pat Hollingdale who was one of the Aussie pioneers of the BIAB method we know today.
It was a podcast on Basic Brewing Radio - http://www.biabrewer.info/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=2689

 

[aamcle]

Two points from my own experience,

I do get lower efficiency unless I dunk sparge (very easy) then it jumps to 85 - 88%.
Stuck sparge are possible, I had one just two batches ago 100% Rye.


Aamcle

 

[chisena]

Just hook up a pump and continuously recirculate during the mash. Viola.

 

[slym2none]

Yeah you can win medals at a local comp with crappy judges against other extract brewers but its a completely different thing to be competing for national titles.

Wow.

 

[aamcle]

Chisena
I am using a recirculating biab system and I still see a big jump.

This ONLY RELATES TO DUNK SPARGE!

To explain, if I calculate that I need 35litres total volume I'll hold back some (maybe 10litres) and mash in with the rest.

When you lift the bag and drain/squeeze it retains some water and the sugars that are dissolved in that water.
So 5kg of grain will retain 4 to 5kg of sweet liquor including the sugars. For ease call that 4 to 5 litres, on my system (I'm looking for 23 litres into FV) that's a significant % of the total.

Two dunks and I have retrieved most of the sugars and my % efficiency rises. That's nothing fancy, I heat some of the water I saved in the kitchen kettle add it to some more water in a bucket and dunk. As long as its warm but not too hot it fine, just so easy

I have tried pure FVM but some very easy dunking gets me 15 to 20%+ more efficiency.

Atb. Aamcle

 

[TexasWine]

They all have 3 vessel recirculating systems.

Sorry, this is wrong...

Excerpts from the Mark Schoppe interview are below.

View attachment 1444480834620.jpg

View attachment 1444480848308.jpg

 

[AnthonyUK]

Hi Aamcle, what would you say is your primary objective for increasing efficiency?

 

[stpug]

If you get hardcore into brewing and want to chase medals or are a gear guy, you'll want to upgrade [from BIAB].

I'm going to hope that you're, again, (half) joking; otherwise, that last part is completely ludicrous. Not to mention that "medal chasing" is just as successful with extract brewing as it is all grain. You're just a little jokester aren't you

Firstly, I'm a hardcore BIABer (80+ batches since i gave up the mash tun) and I have no intentions to "upgrade" but when is the last time a ninkasi award winner was an extract brewer? How many NHC finalists were extract brewers? (not many this decade). How many of those are BIABers? How many of them are even mashing in cooler mash tun? Yeah you can win medals at a local comp with crappy judges against other extract brewers but its a completely different thing to be competing for national titles. Those types are not BIABing because when you get to that level you are brewing an insane amount and attempting to control every thing in your process- you aren't going to settle for +/- .5C mash temp and losing a degree per hour when you mash. They all have 3 vessel recirculating systems. Maybe its possible to make just as good a beer BIAB but it is a lot more effort to be repeatable which is necessary if you are going to go for titles (not just the occasional medal). The fact is the hardcore medal chaser brewers are not brewing that way.

Turns out you ARE high as a kite! I thought I was reading into that, but, nope, you said it!

 

[SteveH aka shetc]

You disagree that it takes more time

The recommendation isn't mine. I picked it up from Pat Hollingdale who was one of the Aussie pioneers of the BIAB method we know today.
It was a podcast on Basic Brewing Radio - http://www.biabrewer.info/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=2689

There's been a Pat Hollingdale sighting (my BIAB mentor) - good on you, mate

 

[aamcle]

Anthony.

I'm not that bothered about efficiency if fact as most recipes assume 75% I'd be very pleased if that's what I got.

I often buy AG kits from MaltMiller and I don't want to mess about adding extra grain to them.

I've found about 66% mashing full volume and a couple of batches at 86% with a dunk sparge.
Maybe I should do one dunk not two.

atb. Aamcle

 

[SteveH aka shetc]

There's been a Pat Hollingdale sighting (my BIAB mentor) - good on you, mate

Now, if you follow the Aussie approach ala Pat then the usual efficiency is 84% for a full volume (i.e. 'sparge' water included) BIAB brew. This is without doing anything special such as doubling crushing, dunking, etc. (I do love to squeeze my bag).

 

[gbx]

Where do you get your stats on Ninkasi award winners and contenders and their brewing style?


This years Ninkasi winner Mark Schoppe featured in both competitions I recently entered here in Texas. He enters a ton of beers and is fully open about his process. He does small batch brews with a technique he knows well no doubt and uses a carpet bomb strategy to maximize his medal haul. Just as an example his entry fees in the recent comp i was in I would estimate would have been close to or in excess of $100.

Nothing wrong with what he is trying to do, but to assume he is using some 3 vessel recirculating setup for 1-2 gallon batches is inane. Read his great interview in the recent issue of Zymurgy (I think it was in). The one with all the NHC winning recipes.

I'm not sure what planet your brewing on but +/- 5c mash temps are nowhere near acceptable regardless of technique. I can nail it to a fraction of a degree. [Edit, reread you wrote .5C, disregard. +/- 0.5 degree would be entirely acceptable. With measurement error on a very good thermometers at +/-0.4C it's largely impractical to be more accurate.] Just takes bit of careful planning but is not hard. I have no doubt Schoppe is doing something comparable. They guy is a legend but he is homebrewing just like you and me. Granted it would seem he is brewing primarily for comps but that is what he wants to do so good luck to him.

The judges don't care or know if a beer is made on a 3 vessel HERMs or a simple 1 gallon BIAB setup mashed in the oven, or a kit and kilo brew. The only factor in play is the quality of the beer in the anonymous bottle and how best it conforms to the style guidelines.

In short. Your talking utter nonsense. read his interview. Small batch brewing at its finest.

Ok I was in a trolling mood yesterday and wanted to generate controversy but now I’m not bored at work. Plus I re-read my last post and I sound like more of an ******* than I intended

In regards to Mark Schoppe i happily stand corrected. Nothing makes me happier then when low tech or casual brewers have great success but I just don't see it that much anymore. Not that anybody who wins a Ninkasi award is a casual brewer. Gordon Strong has joked that one of the secrets to winning at NHC is writing the largest cheque to Charlie (as in, submitting the most number of entries). I’d still think that low tech brewing is a rarity at that level which is why his story is even a story. To be spamming multiple comps a month with dozens of entries each requires is a different level of home-brew crazy. The people I know who are even slightly headed down that road are never satisfied with their gear and always upgrading something.

 

[aamcle]

I'd love to but so far I've never got near that mashing FV.

If you have a look at biabrewer.info pistolpatch will tell exactly the same, no extra sparging needed, l've not even managed 70% that way.
I discussed it at lenght here :-

http://biabrewer.info/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3130

Atb. Aamcle

 

[Gavin C]

.... I’d still think that low tech brewing is a rarity at that level .

What are you basing this on? Have you chatted with many NHC multiple medal winners over the years about their processes?

....which is why his story is even a story..

It's a story because he won the Ninkasi not because he uses a particular method. The AHA magazine writers interview the Ninkasi winner along with all the other gold medalists. No surprise there.

 

[SteveH aka shetc]

I'd love to but so far I've never got near that mashing FV.

If you have a look at biabrewer.info pistolpatch will tell exactly the same, no extra sparging needed, l've not even managed 70% that way.
I discussed it at lenght here :-

http://biabrewer.info/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3130

Atb. Aamcle

Bummer

 

[ArcLight]

Besides, it is not really BIAB if you are sparging.

I call BS on that. I sparge and get somewhat better efficiency.
I just hold some water back, raise the bag, let it drain while I start up the boil. Then lower the bag into a second pot and pour in the extra water. I mix it around for a minute, then raise the bag again.

BIAB probably started out without a sparge, that doesn't mean it's optimal, just a little less work.

>>If you have a look at biabrewer.info pistolpatch will tell exactly the same, no extra sparging needed, l've not even managed 70% that way.


I've read biabrewer. You can make good beer without sparging. But you will get extra efficiency if you do, and it's not much effort.

I posted to that effect, but the response was "use an extra pound of grain" and save yourself the extra work - which does have it's merits.

 

[pricelessbrewing]

I call BS on that. I sparge and get somewhat better efficiency.
I just hold some water back, raise the bag, let it drain while I start up the boil. Then lower the bag into a second pot and pour in the extra water. I mix it around for a minute, then raise the bag again.

BIAB probably started out without a sparge, that doesn't mean it's optimal, just a little less work.

>>If you have a look at biabrewer.info pistolpatch will tell exactly the same, no extra sparging needed, l've not even managed 70% that way.


I've read biabrewer. You can make good beer without sparging. But you will get extra efficiency if you do, and it's not much effort.

I posted to that effect, but the response was "use an extra pound of grain" and save yourself the extra work - which does have it's merits.

Everything said thus far makes sense. It appears we've attracted some .Info members and the mindset that accompanies them. They've got some okay info on there, but the general gestalt thing going on there is not for me.

I'm with you ArcLight, I'm trying to explore the findings of braukaiser and see how the apply to biab. For more info, please read and post in my thread "equal runnings biab"

 

[UndeadFred]

I love this. This is why I can not give a fast flying about "judging".. If you don't like my beer, don't drink it. Very simple..

 

[aamcle]

I agree Fred, good beer is what I like, yours is horrid!

Aamcle

 

[filthyastronaut]

BIAB is simple and effective with little upfront cost. Only needed to spring for a higher capacity kettle for the full boil. I mash in my 6 gallon kettle, dunk sparge in the 7.5 gallon kettle, let drain and tie to a hook over the counter (normally for pots/pans) so it can drain into a small pot while the boil starts, and I can also squeeze the hell out of it there until I'm satisfied and will either boil that down to syrup before adding or just add it to the boil kettle immediately. My efficiency has climbed from 66 percent to 80 percent over my last five batches with this method, likely from doing a mashout and vigorous intermittent stirring.

You can also do cool stuff like 100% Wheat beers with no worry about stuck mashes, and those are actually really delicious. I don't think I will ever change my approach beyond small tweaks, as it works very well for me and the money for fancier mash equipment can be spent towards temperature control.

 

[aamcle]

You can also do cool stuff like 100% Wheat beers with no worry about stuck mashes.

I got a stuck mash on my recirculating Biab with just 50% Rye it was well Murphied batch if it could go wrong it did.

Aamcle

 

[filthyastronaut]

I got a stuck mash on my recirculating Biab with just 50% Rye it was well Murphied batch if it could go wrong it did.

Aamcle

Isn't that due to the recirculation? Because if there isn't anything that can get stuck in the process, there is no risk of a stuck mash. That is still quite a bit of Rye, so it's likely best to avoid anything that can get stuck with that kind of percentage.

 

[chisena]

My grain bag lines a stainless basket that is set above the valve and BoilCoil. I don't think a stuck mash would be physically possible. Never had a problem.

 

[aamcle]

Mmmm well recirculation is the only reason I found out it was stuck. It would still have been stuck without it and I would never have known until I tried to run off the wort. I did a beta glucan rest but I didn't add any rice hulls. Maybe next time.

Aamcle