BIAB Myths and Misconceptions

[filthyastronaut]

Mmmm well recirculation is the only reason I found out it was stuck. It would still have been stuck without it and I would never have known until I tried to run off the wort. I did a beta glucan rest but I didn't add any rice hulls. Maybe next time.

Aamcle

I have never recirculated so I wouldn't know firsthand, but when googling "stuck biab" there were several topics on hbt related to stuck recirculated biab mashes. What I do know for sure is that I have done 40% rye and 100% wheat and I hit my numbers without incident, just stirring vigorously every 15 minutes.

 

[chisena]

Mmmm well recirculation is the only reason I found out it was stuck. It would still have been stuck without it and I would never have known until I tried to run off the wort. I did a beta glucan rest but I didn't add any rice hulls. Maybe next time.

Aamcle

I recirculate continuously. No way for it to get "stuck" with my setup.

 

[TexasWine]

I recirculate continuously. No way for it to get "stuck" with my setup.

Recirculating is what causes it to "stick", at least in my experience. If you're not recirculating, there's no way to get stuck in a single vessel BIAB system.

 

[chisena]

Basket and bag have solved the issue for me while still allowing for recirculation. Now that said, I have never tried any mashes that would pose an extreme risk of getting stuck. It would really surprise me if that happened. Check out High Gravity Brewing's eBIAB setup, which is essentially what I have done.

http://www.highgravitybrew.com/store/pc/BIAB-Electric-Brewing-System-240V-269p3987.htm

 

[pdxal]

Great thread, I like the debate and everyone seems to be civil about disagreements.
I've been doing BIAB for more than 70 batches and have had good success with 80% or greater efficiency, dunk sparging in a second pot and squeezing the bag a little bit.
I enjoy producing beer that is equal to or better than people in my club that use elaborate equipment compared to my "ghetto" BIAB on stove top method.
I can get some of both sides of the first runnings vs. boiling down argument, but don't think sparging equals inferior beer.
Regarding the tannin extraction talk... What does everyone think of a mash press or a mash filter, then? They would seem like a professional brewhouse analogy to BIAB. There are at least a few breweries I have read about that use one. One would think that tannin extraction would be inevitable, but at least a few "top" breweries use them:
http://www.micropure.com/FilterPressMash.html
http://www.mbaa.com/districts/Northwest/Events/Documents/The Meura Mash Filter.pdf
http://2beerguys.com/blog/2009/05/31/alaskan_brewing_co_01/

 

[C-Rider]

Its not really related but everyone I know who brags about their efficiency seems to have an idea that you are wasting money with a crappy 60% eff. I think its dumb to worry about the money spent on grain and not consider the other parts of the process that cost money. If you aren't concerned with money, then an efficiency discussion is just about what tastes better and you never hear anyone saying that a completely sparged out 90% efficiency tastes better.

I don't thing efficiency talk is about saving money but about better mashing. Either way if the beer comes out good who cares about the cost which by the way is still less than any craft beer you can buy in a store.
Cheers, Okole Maluna, and all that.

 

[C-Rider]

The best quality wort is from the first runnings



With sparging you are effectively diluting your first runnings so to get back to your required volume you need to boil off the additional liquid.

Not if you plan the sparging water into your process. I've been holding back on a full volume BIAB by about 25% and using that to sparge so I only boil for one hour. But I agree my mash runnings are diluted by the sparge water and I'm beginning to wonder if that 1.012 sparge water is worth the effort.

 

[AnthonyUK]

Not if you plan the sparging water into your process. I've been holding back on a full volume BIAB by about 25% and using that to sparge so I only boil for one hour. But I agree my mash runnings are diluted by the sparge water and I'm beginning to wonder if that 1.012 sparge water is worth the effort.

I also wondered whether it was worth the extra effort as at the end of the day it is 100% one way and 90%+10% the other (maybe 95%+10%). Some people say it is a simple route to an additional efficiency gain which is fine if those gains are worth your time and as this is a hobby then it's precious time so it could be another benefit but so far nobody has put forward any evidence that high efficiency = better quality. One of Jamil's podcasts covered this back in 2009 and the consensus was don't chase the numbers just for the sake of it.

The most sensible reason I thought was from Aamcle when using a pre-bought kit.

As long as people are clear about their process it isn't an issue e.g. when you sparge a thin mash, factored in the lack of buffering left in the grain and adjusted your water accordingly then great. As a beginner you wouldn't even know what question to ask so just take the process at face value which is where the myths start.

 

[Mer-man]

I seem to get high conversion (mash) efficiency with my traditional BIAB.

Or at least I do since I read the Water book and pestered the heck out of AJ and Martin. Before then it oscillated between 70% and 83%.

It is NEAT to get a high number, but all I really care about is a)not having a conversion problem, b)being consistent.

If my conversion was consistently 80%, I would simply adjust for that in BIABACUS and buy more grain.

I think FV mash is a great concept if you can apply it. Remember, the traditional sparging techniques developed because of technological and physical limitations to the lautering process. (I don't have a footnote for this, it is my inference. Perhaps they needed wilserbrewer bags. )
It stuck around for tradition and comfort, like many human institutions have.
But IMHO, it's nice to do away with unnecessary frippery when you have the luxury of being able to step back and go, "huh, do I really need that?"

Also, production breweries chase efficiency on wort extraction. My buddy, a brewer at Gordon Biersch, sings the praises of AB's consistent quality product (though he doesn't normally drink such boring beer). Now I know we are not in the business of beer, but when you maximize use of your materials (while avoiding tannins and off-flavours), that's just good process.

 

[AnthonyUK]

Would anybody be interested in participating in a thread where for a brew a number of parameters are recorded such as grain crush size, water content, grain bill, volumes, pH etc to compare efficiencies?
I could create a template.

 

[Mer-man]

For science! Yes.
Can everyone get Weyermann malts?

 

[aamcle]

IMHO recirculating only enables me to maintain temperature easily, it doesn't seem to do anything else although I haven't got much to proove that.
I did have a stirred Biab running for a couple of batches, I used a car wiper motor, but other than extremely good (ott) temperature control I discovered no benefits but it might have stopped my Rye batch from sticking.
I dont think I'll resurrect it as I've used the mesh that stopped thebag getting caught around the impeller for something else.


Atb. Aamcle

 

[TexasWine]

Basket and bag have solved the issue for me while still allowing for recirculation. Now that said, I have never tried any mashes that would pose an extreme risk of getting stuck. It would really surprise me if that happened. Check out High Gravity Brewing's eBIAB setup, which is essentially what I have done.

http://www.highgravitybrew.com/store/pc/BIAB-Electric-Brewing-System-240V-269p3987.htm

Trying not to hijack this thread, but this is essentially the same set up I and others have, and yes a stuck recirculation is possible. Check out this thread...

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=543873

 

[aamcle]

I think the possibility of stuck recirculation is why the GF has a centre over flow. When recirculating without a basket that is were the bag is pressed against the walls of the kettle I found that I had to recirculate so slowly that I just could not believe it did any good.


Atb. Aamcle

 

[TexasWine]

Would anybody be interested in participating in a thread where for a brew a number of parameters are recorded such as grain crush size, water content, grain bill, volumes, pH etc to compare efficiencies?
I could create a template.

I'm up for it. I measure all those except pH. I don't have a pH meter, and at this point don't really have a desire for one.

 

[Mer-man]

I'm up for it. I measure all those except pH. I don't have a pH meter, and at this point don't really have a desire for one.

Yeah, mine would be based on pH strips . . . .:fro:

 

[pricelessbrewing]

Yeah, mine would be based on pH strips . . . .:fro:

ph strips are basically useless for brewing.

 

[dmtaylor]

ph strips are basically useless for brewing.

Nonsense, they're good within about +/-0.6.

 

[Mer-man]

I don't actually use them because I agree. I was just saying that if it is required to participate, I would give useless figures ;-)

 

[jrcrilly]

That article was not pleasant reading, just nitpicking at phrasing really.
There is no shame in BIAB brewing (or extract brewing for that matter).
And I don't like how he claims it to be superior to using manifolds either. All methods (yes, methods) of brewing has their respective pros and cons, but the one that is superior is the one that suits your needs.
This just seems like a he's trying to push ppl towards BIAB.

Yes. he is. He's a BIAB vendor. It doesn't invalidate everything he says, but it does mean that one has to carefully consider how much weight to give to his points. It also means that any relevant counterpoints are missing and will have to be provided by others.

There are many far more informative and balanced articles on the topic written by non-vendors. They haven't convinced me to abandon my system, but I did pick up a bag that I will try out when it gets too cold to comfortably brew the slow way.

 

[chisena]

I have never had a stuck sparge and can't imagine it ever happening with my system.. but I guess we could go back and forth forever. What's the point?

 

[BigJack]

Ill raise the meter a bit more:
BIAB produces inferior beer. There is simply no way around it

 

[chisena]

[emoji42]

 

[m00ps]

Umm ill just chime in at this point, that was blatantly sarcastic. In over 150 batches I have ONLY done BIAB batches....If you gave me a traditional 3 vessel system, I wouldnt know what the hell to do with it...

 

[jmpreiks]

Umm ill just chime in at this point, that was blatantly sarcastic. In over 150 batches I have ONLY done BIAB batches....If you gave me a traditional 3 vessel system, I wouldnt know what the hell to do with it...

 

[hafmpty]

Sorry, this is wrong...

Excerpts from the Mark Schoppe interview are below.

Would you be willing to scan this article and email it to me? I'd love to read the whole thing. PM me if you would do that. No worries if you don't want to or don't have time to.

 

[chisena]

As TexasWine pointed out below, himself and many others use a similar recirculating eBIAB setup. I am wondering, where does everyone attach their thermocouple? I had mine attached at the kettle lid where the wort returns to the mash (just like the HighGravity design). However, I think this was allowing the wort at the bottom of the mash to get much warmer. I kept encountering lower than expected fermentability in my worts. I have since moved it to the kettle output and this seems to directly correlate to a dramatic improvement in fermentability. Interested in other's experiences.

 

[m00ps]

Mines close to the outflow at the bottom of the kettle (by design I think). As long as you are having adequate recirculation, you should be good wherever

 

[chisena]

Mines close to the outflow at the bottom of the kettle (by design I think). As long as you are having adequate recirculation, you should be good wherever

Good point about circulation. Maybe I have been restricting the output valve from my pump too much. Going to do SMASH this weekend and try 1) relocating the thermocouple to the kettle output and 2) ensuring I maintain a good flow. Hopefully I can get this brew below 1020 for crying out loud!