Biab Cloudy Beer Considerations

[applescrap]

Next pint its getting clearer. Hmm...gelatin? Time? Cold? Finally finished fermenting

View attachment 1473908408838.jpg

 

[DrunkleJon]

Yeah that's rushing the yeast in my opinion. But your persistence may be paying off. Just don't bump the kegerator

 

[applescrap]

So well said. Rushing the yeast a little for sure. And happily I will add. Need another batch.

 

[doug293cz]

...

Another thing i was hoping you could help me with is sealing the keg. A guy at my lhbs told me after I racked the beer to fill it with co2 then drain and do again. I am filling and purging with co2 3 or 4 times or so, is this overkill? Also once sealed you just let them hang out till they are ready? So you basically have a pipeline all set up and ready to go as one kicks another goes in. Im envious, I need more kegs and fermentors. That way I could age some beer to. Anyways thanks for all your help.

I am really grateful for the great clarity ideas discussed thus far. I am starting to see a clearer future (pun) for my beer.

One thing I mentioned in my first post is freshness. I mean I might finish a beer before another takes it out of the primary. Perhaps its a discussion for another thread, but I have wondered about age and freshness. When I have had kegs get really clear after a month in keg they seem stale at times to. Seems there is a consensus about a "sweet spot" but I still wonder about freshness. I guess I'm thinking out loud but welcome any thoughts on this.

Staleness is more than likely oxidation.. too much oxygen exposure, careless racking, or forgetting to purge your keg after racking.

@casualbrewer is probably right about oxidation causing your beer to taste stale after a few weeks. To prevent rapid staling you need to have a Total Packaged Oxygen (TPO) content below 0.1 - 0.2 ppm (ref: page 21 of http://www.craftbrewersconference.com/wp-content/uploads/2015_presentations/F1540_Darron_Welch.pdf.) When kegging and force carbonating you need to do about 13 purge cycles (pressurize then vent) at 30 psi to get O2 levels near 0.1 ppm.





You also need to rack using techniques that minimize air (O2) pick up during transfer to the keg (or any other transfers post fermentation.)

If you are priming the keg for carbonation, then the fermentation for carbonation will consume a fair amount of O2, so fewer purge cycle should be adequate.

Brew on

 

[slym2none]

Compared to a commercial beer, none of those pics look very clear.

I have seen pics of beers here made by homebrewers (like Gavin, for example) that look exactly like a commercial beer in terms of clarity. Yours just don't cut it in any of these pics, I am afraid.

 

[dmtaylor]

I just ran a vorlauf vs. no vorlauf side-by-side experiment. Same recipe for both, and both were BIAB, and I used gelatin in both and allowed to clear for a full month. To "vorlauf" I simply strained the sweet wort through a second bag. Result: The vorlaufed beer is clear as crystal, and the "normal" batch where the bag was simply pulled out but not recirculated is slightly but noticeably hazy. Conclusion: BIAB without some manner of recirculation or vorlauf or filtering can cause haze. Those who get crystal clear beer every time are either lucky or lying.

Here is a picture of the non-vorlaufed batch (both glasses are one and the same non-vorlaufed batch). As you can see, it is still almost perfectly clear. What you can't see is that if I compare it with my other batch in person (didn't show up well on film), it is not crystal clear like my other one. Another month in cold storage might change this.

 

[The_Bishop]

I just ran a vorlauf vs. no vorlauf side-by-side experiment. Same recipe for both, and both were BIAB, and I used gelatin in both and allowed to clear for a full month. To "vorlauf" I simply strained the sweet wort through a second bag. Result: The vorlaufed beer is clear as crystal, and the "normal" batch where the bag was simply pulled out but not recirculated is slightly but noticeably hazy. Conclusion: BIAB without some manner of recirculation or vorlauf or filtering can cause haze. Those who get crystal clear beer every time are either lucky or lying.

The point of a vorlauf in a conventional brew system is to insure that no grain makes it's way into the boil kettle. Clarity of wort does not mean clear beer, and there's nothing that your second 'filtering' of the wort through a second bag is accomplishing unless your primary bag is too coarse and the second bag is finer.

Also, I BIAB pretty much exclusively. My beers are *clear* with the exception of hop haze in IPAs.

I also don't like being called a liar. Maybe you just suck at brewing? (I'm just fooling around, here.)

How are you gelatin fining? It shouldn't take a month to clear. My beers drop crystal clear in 2-3 days post gelatin.
1. Cold crash fermenter down to 32f (0c) overnight
2. Add 1/2 knox packet to roughly 1/3 cup of water
3. Microwave in bursts to 155f (68c)
4. Carefully add to beer in primary
5. Wait 2-3 days for crystal clear beer
6. Keg clear beer (or bottle, your choice)

 

[dmtaylor]

The point of a vorlauf in a conventional brew system is to insure that no grain makes it's way into the boil kettle. Clarity of wort does not mean clear beer, and there's nothing that your second 'filtering' of the wort through a second bag is accomplishing unless your primary bag is too coarse and the second bag is finer.

Also, I BIAB pretty much exclusively. My beers are *clear* with the exception of hop haze in IPAs.

I also don't like being called a liar. Maybe you just suck at brewing? (I'm just fooling around, here.)

How are you gelatin fining? It shouldn't take a month to clear. My beers drop crystal clear in 2-3 days post gelatin.
1. Cold crash fermenter down to 32f (0c) overnight
2. Add 1/2 knox packet to roughly 1/3 cup of water
3. Microwave in bursts to 155f (68c)
4. Carefully add to beer in primary
5. Wait 2-3 days for crystal clear beer
6. Keg clear beer (or bottle, your choice)

Fair enough, and you are in fact largely correct. Maybe I do kind of suck at brewing. My apologies for not being forthright and accusing of lying, that was a bit harsh.

My grain bag is indeed coarse. I don't really like the super fine bags, personal preference but I think it makes for easier "sparging" which I usually do. Also I usually "vorlauf" through a folded bag over a colander and it definitely helps a LOT with removal of particles. Maybe I just need to suck it up and get a finer mesh bag. Maybe those with the clearest results are all using very fine mesh, I guess that's a good possibility.

The gelatin works instantly -- well I mean within about 36 hours. But even after the gelatin, at least after being in the poor coarse bag with no vorlauf, there's starch or something in the beer that causes permanent haze. The vorlaufed or well strained batch on the other hand is clear as crystal. However there's really no discernible flavor differences, it's just the appearance, so... who cares!? At least while it's young. I'm just saying that even a month after gelatin, the hazy beer continues to be hazy, and the crystal clear beer continues to be crystal clear. There are some problems that even gelatin cannot solve.

Cheers.

 

[The_Bishop]

Fair enough, and you are in fact largely correct. Maybe I do kind of suck at brewing. My apologies for not being forthright and accusing of lying, that was a bit harsh.

No, no... I was kidding around. Hard to convey that in typed words!

My grain bag is indeed coarse. I don't really like the super fine bags, personal preference but I think it makes for easier "sparging" which I usually do. Also I usually "vorlauf" through a folded bag over a colander and it definitely helps a LOT with removal of particles. Maybe I just need to suck it up and get a finer mesh bag. Maybe those with the clearest results are all using very fine mesh, I guess that's a good possibility.

The fineness of the mesh is only important in that it keep the grain particles and husks confined. It's not filtering the wort to any standard of 'clarity' at all.

The gelatin works instantly -- well I mean within about 36 hours. But even after the gelatin, at least after being in the poor coarse bag with no vorlauf, there's starch or something in the beer that causes permanent haze. The vorlaufed or well strained batch on the other hand is clear as crystal.

I wonder it it's a conversion issue. How finely is the grain milled? Is it possible that you're not getting complete conversion in some of the beers?

How sure are you of your thermometer? Maybe it's not accurate. What water are you using?

However there's really no discernible flavor differences, it's just the appearance, so... who cares!? At least while it's young. I'm just saying that even a month after gelatin, the hazy beer continues to be hazy, and the crystal clear beer continues to be crystal clear. There are some problems that even gelatin cannot solve.

Cheers.

Drink on, good sir!

 

[dmtaylor]

The fineness of the mesh is only important in that it keep the grain particles and husks confined. It's not filtering the wort to any standard of 'clarity' at all.

I wonder it it's a conversion issue. How finely is the grain milled? Is it possible that you're not getting complete conversion in some of the beers?

How sure are you of your thermometer? Maybe it's not accurate. What water are you using?

I do think that without straining the tiny grain particles due to a coarse mesh bag, this led to the haze I am seeing. The VERY small degree of unconverted starches might be exploding in the boil and causing permanent haze.

My average brewhouse efficiency is 81%. I believe I am getting better than average conversion, and like I say, I do usually sparge. In the past I was getting >90% efficiency but have since opened the gap on my mill..... there will be a separate more detailed post on the breadth and extent of my experimentation in the coming days.........

My thermometer and hydrometer are calibrated. I use treated city water (Lake Michigan) with Campden and often a little added salts to duplicate desired water profile but nothing excessive. Mash pH is typically 5.2 to 5.4 as desired.

I'm pretty sure there's tiny particles of starch exploded if I don't vorlauf. This particular batch was an accident. I always "vorlauf" my BIAB, but I forgot on this one. Like I said, my second batch with the same recipe where I vorlaufed normally is clear as crystal. I *could* use a finer meshed bag... but don't really need to. Others might want to.

 

[UndeadFred]

This sounds like a really kick azz brew process. It's nice to read and consider. I need a better pipeline so I can dial in better.

Well, it is out of necessity since I can only really afford to spend the time on brewing--scratch that-- manipulation of home brew and/or brewing-- about every second to third weekend. Get a pipeline started. I actually have the opposite problem of having too much on hand since I'm the only one drinking it (except for club events).

But being patient really works well for flavor and clarity....

 

[applescrap]

Sorry bout the handage. A little clearer tonight. Lager yeast is more clearing? (No this is not a fermentation discussion).

View attachment 1473988446795.jpg

 

[applescrap]

Holy guacamole. Its clear, i wonder if the lager yeast likes to flocc? Cue the smooth jazz. 5 days in keg. Day 11/12.

View attachment 1473999259069.jpg

 

[Pkrd]

Those pictures are like 3 hrs apart. Can we get half hourly updates on the clarity please.

For science you understand.

 

[applescrap]

Yes, selfie included.

 

[seabass07]

It's a shame there isn't a search function for things like fining methods. It would be such a useful feature.

 

[casualbrewer]

Bet it tastes better also. Don't touch it for a week and you may be surprised.

 

[applescrap]

^^That is what I was alluding to earlier. Does it get better? At what point does it tip, in other direction?

 

[UndeadFred]

A lager like that one? Months.. Seriously....

 

[agrazela]

...I have a little device that I built that will force in the gelatin through the gas dip tube...

I would like to hear more about this device.

 

[casualbrewer]

One month it will definitely be better and more clear. Two or 3 months and it should be brilliant and very crisp. Only reason it will go in the other direction is if it has been oxidized. I am definitely guilty of drinking my lagers too soon but i do it more as a progressive meter to see the difference in tastes/clarity. I am still looking into filtering to speed up the process.

 

[UndeadFred]

I would like to hear more about this device.

If is a half pint mason jar (a freezer storage "jelly" one for higher break resistance, small "normal" size lid).. I use 1/4" female flare to female flare with a Grolsch gasket on each and a flare nut on the inside of the mason jar lid to seal (well enough). I hook gas to one with my extra valve on the keezer and a gas connector on the other. The side with the gas connector has a small piece of 0.170" ID LDPE line on it, heat formed (melted) to seal with the flare nut to make a dip tube. I do wear leather gloves in case there is a break with the pressure when holding it (or I place it way out of the way), but the negative pressure during canning is more than 8-12 PSI. If yours blows up, don't say I didn't warn you, though.

I boil the water in the jar in the microwave (sanitize and O2 elimination), and let cool back down to 150F. then I add about 2x as much gelatin as I used to, let bloom (hot, it still works) and seal the jar. I hook up and pressurize. On my ball lock lids, I pull the PRV to get 1/2 of the liquid to go into the keg. On the pin locks, I pull a little beer from the tap. I dump the other half of the liquid. Gelatin is cheap enough it doesn't matter.

I swirl the keg around a little and 48 hours later it's clear. Make sure the keg cold crashed for 48 hours (and is at least at serving temp) before adding the gelatin.

Pretty simple. Cheers.

 

[applescrap]

So I'm bumping this thread a little. The beer has substantially cleared at this point. I want to say it's better but fear it tastes the exact same and my perception has changed.

 

[applescrap]

I don't know why this clarity thing is so difficult for me. I'm back to believing that the nature of the beer ultimately trumps. A lager will become clear and a wit will clear but still remain cloudier. I think my future holds a healthy cold crashes and gelatin.

View attachment 1474421201719.jpg

View attachment 1474421210423.jpg