Berlinner weisse question

[ArcaneXor]

What exactly are the differences between the strains? Do they produce any different flavor/aroma characteristics? I have the same question about Brett, and have yet to find a solid resource to explain it.

Brevis is more hop resistant and tends to sour more (and it produces ethanol). I believe Cascade uses Brevis for their sour beers.

 

[jgclingenpeel]

Registered to thank you guys for this discussion. I brewed a BW last October having no idea what it tasted like, just wanted a light sour ale. I followed the Brewing Classic Styles recipe and used Wyeast lacto and Safale US-05. I bottled 2 weeks after brewing, which was a simple stovetop BIAB (my first all grain, on top of first sour).

I wish I'd waited longer for the lacto to develop sourness before drinking, the first two months it was just a funky tasting wheat beer. Right now it's tart without being super sour and I've bought some syrups, but I don't have much left.

I did get a chance to try a few commercial examples, since it's apparently becoming a popular style with craft brewers, and I really dig Bear Republic's version. I want to do this again as just a sour mash, single decoction, and see if I can get more of a sour character without adding lacto. I'll also try a few of the things I read here. Thanks again.

 

[coldrain]

I would suggest using lactobacillus brevis instead of delbrueckii, or doing the sour starter method. The Delbrueckii strains are notorious for being very slow to sour and tend to be extremely sensitive to even very low levels of hopping.

Where can I get a culture of lactobacillus brevis, are there commercial suppliers?

I found a lot of info on BW here Berliner Weisse - Home Brewing Wiki and they also state using L. Brevis but say its hard to find.

 

[ArcaneXor]

Where can I get a culture of lactobacillus brevis, are there commercial suppliers?

I found a lot of info on BW here Berliner Weisse - Home Brewing Wiki and they also state using L. Brevis but say its hard to find.

I think you pretty much have to harvest it from a bottle.

 

[HollisBT]

Hey everyone, I am preparing to brew this beer, and had a few more questions that I wanted to toss out there. I have changed directions and have decided to sour mash instead of adding lacto into the fermenter.

I was wondering what everyone's thoughts were regarding the souring process. I have 1 pound of mystery grains (they came in a kit that was never used, and I have them sitting in a bowl collecting some local organisms as we speak) that I had been planning on dumping into the unboiled wort to help sour. Should this be sufficient for getting the lacto going? Or should I plan on pitching some lacto from a smack pack?

I plan on fermenting the beer with a kölsch yeast after souring and doing a quick 15 minute boil. After fermentation is complete, will it be safe to wash and re-use this yeast? My logic tells me yes, but I just want someone to confirm that before I go tainting future batches.

 

[storunner13]

To those thinking of culturing lacto from grains, I have successfully done it. I outlined it here.

Basically, I created 500ml of a 1.030ish wort, and added in 1/2 c. of grains. I let it sit for a few days. By the smell of it I think it developed a little enterobacteria (or maybe lactobacillus just makes that smell), but then it started to ferment with an ‘unknown’ yeast – Either wild from the grains, or cultured from the ‘terroir’ of my kitchen (brewers, bakers, …?).

Nevertheless, I got good results from pitching about 250ml of starter into 2.5 gallons of wort and letting it sour before adding S-05 after 48 hours (it may have been 24… I should take better notes).

My recipe was around 1.035 and involved about 60-40 Pale 2-Row/Malted Wheat. I doughed in at about 1.5 qts/lb. for a protein rest at 125-130F for 20 minutes. I pulled a decoction to raise it to 148F rest for 60 minutes, then pulled a second decoction to raise the mash to mashout at 168F for 20 minutes. I threw in .75oz Hallertau with the second decoction and boiled for 10 minutes. Then I did a "sparge" à la the stove-top brewing, and brought to a boil to sanitize the immersion chiller.

Nevertheless, it sat in the carboy for 4 months before I got a sample. Clear, and refreshingly tart! I haven’t bottled it yet.

As for culturing lacto you have a few more options:

1. Buy a bottle of ‘Acidophilus’ from your drug store. It’s just L. acidophilus and will sour your beer without any trouble.
2. Make a starter from the ‘whey’ which forms on top of yogurt (like Stoneyfield, or Brown Cow). Stoneyfield has a number of lacto cultures such as L. bulgaricus, L. acidophilus, L. casei, and L. rhamnosus. If you make a starter, you can probably minimize the effect of the other things in the ‘whey’
3. Buy a yogurt ‘culture’ from a cheese making store. The commercial yogurt culture has L. delbrueckii which is common in brewing. However, it does have ‘milk’ and lactose’ in the culture…

As for bulk aging…I don’t think it’s necessary, but it may be fun if you culture a starter from grains. You might get something more than straight-up lacto and it could develop a pellicle and change flavors over time. I split my batch between pure culture (with the wild yeast) and culture and S-05. The pure culture batch has a pellicle and I haven’t tried it. I hope to the next time I brew (Thursday?). If it’s really good, I’ll bottle it by itself, if just pretty good, I might try blending it. If it’s terrible, I may toss it, or…bottle it for kicks.

Hopefully that helps. I don’t have a whole lot of experience. Given more time, I might try the Acidophilus method, and the yogurt method.

I do plan on racking a bigger (1.060) beer onto the yeast cake of my current BW….just to give it a shot. If they pure culture is very good, I’ll do the same for that… I’m just trying to decide if I want to do a light beer (still 60/40 barley/wheat) or one with some melanoidins.

 

[HollisBT]

Also, Ian assuming that it is safe to taste it throughout the souring process? Again, logic tells me it is ok and would be no different than the bacteria in yogurt and cheese, but while it sours I can taste it to make sure it isn't getting too sour, without fear of getting sick, right?

 

[storunner13]

Hollis- You should be correct. I'm confident that you should fear getting sick as long as it doesn't taste bad. Especially after a day or two, the pH will drop to safe levels.

 

[elproducto]

There really isn't anything in beer that can make you sick.

A word of warning to people. I just had a Berlinerweisse go south, and it's going to be a whole batch down the drain. I did the same thing as storunner, and had GREAT results. Unfortunately I used foil on my carboy rather than an airlock, and oxygen got in and turned everything to ethyl acetate. Nail Polish remover!

Mike T. suggested that you use airlocks or solid bungs for all sours to minimize the risk of oxygen exposure.

Funny enough, the Gose I did from the same batch is totally fine, but I did use an airlock.

 

[zandrsn]

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[HollisBT]

What about whine the yeast afterwords? I am assuming that it will be OK since the wort will have been boiled (briefly). But I don't want to capture any stray bugs in my yeast...

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there is a button at the top of the thread that you can use to do this.

 

[HollisBT]

Oops, whine = washing

 

[storunner13]

You won't be able to wash the yeast to have only Saccharomyces remaining. You will have whatever mixture of yeast, lacto, etc. after washing.

If you wanted to brew a kolsch that isn't sour after a Berlinner, you'll have to buy more yeast.

I wouldn't think it to be worth it to buy a vial of yeast and propagate it for a berlinner. You won't get much yeast character to begin with. If you have some extra slurry lying around...then go for it!

 

[HollisBT]

You won't be able to wash the yeast to have only Saccharomyces remaining. You will have whatever mixture of yeast, lacto, etc. after washing.

If you wanted to brew a kolsch that isn't sour after a Berlinner, you'll have to buy more yeast.

I wouldn't think it to be worth it to buy a vial of yeast and propagate it for a berlinner. You won't get much yeast character to begin with. If you have some extra slurry lying around...then go for it!

Hmmm, so boiling will not kill off the lacto in the wort? I kind of thought I would be safe since I am souring the mash, then boiling, then pitching yeast after the bacteria has already done its job...

 

[storunner13]

Oh...then you'll be fine. I was not aware that you were boiling the beer after having pitched the lacto.

 

[steinsato]

I did not read all 5 pages but if you do a no boil make damn sure you don't have chlorine in your water or your beer will taste like bandaids. I know from experience.

 

[HollisBT]

I have VERY neutral water. But I am doing a 15 minute boil as well.

 

[kaips1]

I just transferred my first ever BW into secondary and it smelled very sour/TANGY . I did a homemade lacto starter(qt size) a week before I brewed and during the brew day I kept the starter very warm. I pitched the lacto starter first and kept it very warm for 12-24 hrs then pitched us05 from a qt sized starter 36 hrs after the end of the boil(or so). Even though I haven't tasted it yet, the smell is exactly what I was expecting. I'm kinda hopeful for this, so I can brew it again.

 

[HollisBT]

So I decided to go the sour mash direction, and it has been souring over the weekend and my plans were to boil it and pitch yeast today. This thing smells HORRIBLE... I mean, it smells like garbage...

Did I do it right? Is the final product going to smell/taste like garbage? I don't really want to take the loss on the yeast if this thing comes out as bad as it smells.

 

[storunner13]

It looks like you have encountered what most other people encounter doing a sour mash..! If you do a search for “Berliner Weiss” you’ll find many accounts of the same thing. I can’t remember whether or not this will disappear completely, but I think a boil will drive away some of those aromatics, as will a good ferment from the yeast. You can find out what others have done in the other threads.

These accounts are why I avoided souring the whole mash. There are too many chances for Enterobacter to lay claim over the wort before the pH drops significantly. Did you try covering the mash with plastic wrap? (putting the plastic right on top of the wort and pushing out all air bubbles?) Supposedly the anaerobic environment inhibits Enterobacter and other foul organisms. I think some people have had good results with that.

If you’re worried, just pitch a clean dry yeast. That way you’re only out $10 in grain and yeast if it goes badly.

 

[bigljd]

There really isn't anything in beer that can make you sick.
QUOTE]

True there's nothing in beer that can make you sick, but there are lots of things that can grow in unfermented wort that can make you sick.

Zymurgy had an article about a year ago for a fairly simple, sour mash process that I used for a sour blonde ale and it worked well. Take a hand full of base malt grain, and throw it in a pint/quart of starter wort (I used a pint of canned wort, which is sterile). Keep it at ~100 degrees for 3 -6 days - this is important to allow the lacto to take over and not have other bad bugs win. I kept it warm using a reptile heating stone in a small cooler. After a few days it should have a sour green apple smell - no garbage dump or vomit smell at all.

Then, mash your grain recipe as you normally would, sparge and heat to a boil for 10 minutes or so to kill any bad bugs. Cool it to around 110 degrees and drain your wort into a 5 gal contractor water cooler until it's full all the way to the top to minimize any air exposure. While it drains, add your lacto starter to it. Put the top on the cooler and cover with a sleeping bag and keep it somewhere warm for 12 -24 hours. Then drain back into your boil kettle and do a normal 60 minute boil, which will kill off any bugs, while adding your hops and whatever is in the recipe. Ferment with a normal sach yeast.

Sour mash will give you a tangy, lactic sourness similar to a Berliner Weiss. It's quite one dimensional compared to a lambic or flanders brew, but it works well in an already complex beer (saison, dark belgian ale, etc), or for a BW. A friend made a maple brown ale and a spiced pumkin beer with the sour mash and they turned out fantastic. My sour blonde was pretty one dimensional so I've added some fruit to it along with some brett to try to add some depth and complexity to it.

Edit - I actually mashed 6 gallon of wort for my blonde ale. I drained 1 gallon into a PET plastic jug and put it in the fridge for the night, and soured the 5 gallons in the contractor cooler. The next day I boiled all 6 gallons of wort. This way you finish with a 5 gal batch.

 

[rbald42]

I basically followed Morkin's schedule on my Berliner with a few small variations.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f72/alferman-imperial-berliner-weisse-255777/

The starter was held at 85 for 2 weeks. The pelicle that formed after pitching it was pretty scary looking and the S-05 yeast went berzerk at 75. Was down to 1.003 in about 3 days. After 3 weeks there was zero tartness/sourness, but after 2 months it is getting very tart and I plan to give it another week or two before kegging it.

 

[HollisBT]

I dumped it last night... The smell was so foul, I couldn't imagine anything drinkable possibly coming out of it... And with that, I am completely through with trying this style again anytime soon... Perhaps one day I will try culturing a lacto starter, or better yet, buying a lacto smack pack, and adding it into a clean sterile wort and letting it do it's thing in the fermenter instead of souring a mash.

God this was a horrible experience. I can't even fully describe the smell... I think I might need to move.

 

[HollisBT]

Oh, and now I have a smack pack of kölsch yeast that I already smacked and it has swollen... Anyone know how long it will stay good for? It might be a few weeks before I get to brew again...

 

[storunner13]

Put it in the fridge. You'll have to make a starter anyway. It will be good for at least a month or two.

 

[steinsato]

You should have drank some anyway. Puts hair on your chest.

 

[RugenBrau]

How long can you age a BW for? I brewed a NB kit and kegged it in August of 2010 and in the process of cleaning etc. set it away and it got buried behind stuff that probably should have been thrown away. Just happened to find it last night. Any predictions on what I might find?

 

[storunner13]

Well...I've been 'aging' my BW for 5 months now. I (at first) thought it needed to age...but then when I realized it doesn't I just never got around to bottling it. The wine thief sample was delicious a month ago....but who knows...it may have gone south since then. I think yours will be just fine!

I'm bottling it tonight. If it's terrible, I'll try to let you know you may be in for a surprise.

 

[jtakacs]

i bottled my last BW in june of 11... it has actually gotten better in bottles although i'm not really a fan of it - as of yet, but i haven't tried it in a while.

 

[RugenBrau]

I'm tapping into it later this week. I have to make some raspberry syrup and then it is a go!