Berliner Wiesse questions....first time

[Hellfire_studios]

So I brewed a berliner wiesse yesterday. followed Jamil's recipe from brewing classic styles. Mashed at 147 and let it sit 4 hours (I know some people let the mash sour so I just let it sit a little longer than I usually would). 15 minute boil. 50/50 wheat and pils. 1 oz of hallatau at 15 min. pretty simple recipe. OG was 1.028

Did not use a yeast culture at all at my LHBS's recommendation. Just pitched the wyeast 5338 Lacto culture. Pitched at 80 degrees. I am not seeing any activity so far (been in the fermenter about 16 hours) and was just wondering what should I be expecting with this Lacto bug. First sour beer and just kind of want to know what I should be looking forward to happening with it. I searched but didn't really find what I needed. Any help would be very good!!

Thanks,
Josh

 

[Double_D]

You'll still need a strain of sacc. in there. Lacto ferments make lactic acid out of sugar. Your mash wouldn't have had time to sour if it only sat four hours. Lacto is happier in the 100 degree range so at 80 it's going to be much more sluggish and it will take weeks to get sour.

For what it's worth, a traditional berliner weisse is a mash hopped no boil recipe. Counting on most of the bacteria to be killed off during the mashing process. I've read somewhere there's a decoction in there somewhere but I can't remember. The beer would sour during fermentation because some lacto would survive through the mash.

But a much easier way would be to let 30% of your grist (mashed as usual and inoculated with 1/2 to 1 cup of raw grain depenting on batch size) go sour for about 48 hours and then mash the rest on brew day. Sparge with your "lacto starter" and boil for 15 min. Then you have a clean beer and it's sour. And complies with the reinhietsgebot.

 

[TimT]

Warm it up, taste it every day and once it is decently sour pitch some yeast to finish it off.

 

[Hellfire_studios]

Which strain should I pitch? Am I looking for a pellical (sp?) to form. Right now there is no action at all. I was not really looking for the mash to be soured after that short amount of time I just had some other things going on and figured at such a low mash temp it would be fine to let it sit while I did something else. Thanks for the advice. Just new to these bugs!

 

[Double_D]

If you want a pellicle lacto will do that eventually. I used a german ale yeast from white labs in mine. But a little brett character isn't outside if the style

 

[Hellfire_studios]

Mine has only been in the fermenter for about a day now but shouldn't I be seeing some kind of movement in the airlock? It is not doing anything....and going on what TimT said should I be tasting it every day to check the sourness? should I be doing that after the airlock starts moving? I will try the german ale yeast double_D thanks!! I don't really need to see a pellicle but was more or less just wondering what I should be looking out for to see that it is working. I moved it to the garage where it is about 98 degrees right now. Had it inside at about 75 so I figured that would help alot.

Double_D I will be trying your sour mash approach next time for sure!!

Josh

 

[Double_D]

I don't really understand warming it up. I'd pitch some yeast and then let it go. It will sour eventually.

 

[TimT]

Warming it up will get the bacteria to the place where they will do what they do best, they are happy and work hard at ~20F higher than yeast. It will be done a lot faster if you get it decently sour now and then finish it with yeast. It could take a long time to sour if not and may not ever be as sour as wanted.

 

[Hellfire_studios]

cool. Thanks. they should be plenty warmed up in my florida garage by tomorrow afternoon and I should see some action!! Thanks guys for the help. I will post up the results.

 

[kwadric]

OP, I used the wlp lacto in Berliner. I did notice any air lock activity. It could have been a loose carboy stopper or it could have been that lacto does not out gas as much as sac yeast.

I did 48 hours of lacto fermentation and then pitched the wlp German ale yeast.

 

[Hellfire_studios]

It's bubbling now lol add some heat and it started going. Think I will taste it in 48 and see how sour it is then go from there.

 

[kwadric]

Awesome. I don't have much reference for Berliners, but mine is middle of the road sour. Significantly more than dfh festina peche but not strong.

Take a taste and when you like the amount of sour bring it back in the house and pitch the sac when the wort cools to your normal pitching temp. The lacto really slows down with temp.

Best wishes. I've really enjoyed this style

 

[Locus415]

I also am starting my first Berliner in a couple of days. I do a fair bit of lacto fermenting of veges like kraut and various pickles. In researching the lacto strains, I noticed the one main ones that "spoil" beer is L. Casei. Having my first son on Fathers Day, I have a whole new batch of gear and baby stuff. One item is Jarro-Dophilus which is a probiotic blend of B. breve, B. lactis, B. longum, B. bifdum, L. casei, and L. rhamnosus. While it helps newborns establish good stomach bugs, the first thing I thought when I read the side was, "this looks like an awesome bug farm for sour beers!"

Not knowing too much about the specific strains of good souring bugs, I am curious if anyone knows if this stuff would make a good inoculate for a BW?

 

[Double_D]

I wouldn't call it a BW if you did but I know there's a couple threads on here labeled "probiotic beers" I'd try there. Generally speaking it's L delbrueckii that's in Berliner weisse as well as sacc. and the style can have a little brett per BJCP guidelines.

 

[Hellfire_studios]

Does this look normal for a lacto fermentation?? Looks good to me!!! Going to wait till tomorrow and taste if it is sour enough I will pitch the yeast.

 

[Rudeboy]

Don't mean to hi-jack the thread but I just ordered Wyeast's Private Collection Berliner Wiesse blend and will be making Jamil's recipe when I get it. I too have a couple of quick questions. I've never drank or even seen a Berliner Wiesse (sorry I lead a sheltered life).

1. What's the clarity on Berliner Wiesse? BJCP says, somewhat unhelpfully: "Clarity ranges from clear to somewhat hazy." Should I bother with Irish Moss? Most pictures on this site look like something approaching a Heffe for clarity, is that right?

2. Do you need to age Berliner Wiesse? I alwys asummed you drank it young like a Heffe, but I've seen here references to aging it. Is this for souring purposes at ale fermentation temps? Or is it for lagering purposes at cold conditioning temps? Does it matter that my bugs are going in simultaneously with the saccro?

3. Should I be worried about my keg and plastic tubing that touches this post fermentation? Will a good Star-San soak take care of that or should I dedicate a keg and plastic to sours?

Thanks

Rudeboy

 

[kwadric]

Hellfire, I've done two lacto fermentations at 100f and never had any foam or krausen. One was 48 hours in a carboy the other was seven days in a corney. That doesn't mean anything is wrong, could just be differences in the brew. Take a smell. Mine usually is a grainy urine like smell.

 

[exhumedatbirth]

Does this look normal for a lacto fermentation?? Looks good to me!!! Going to wait till tomorrow and taste if it is sour enough I will pitch the yeast.

It looks similiar to the Berliner we brewed this weekend, sat in a 90 degree garage on lacto for a few days (Florida heat wave) and pitched the German Ale yeast this morning..

 

[kwadric]

Rudeboy, my experience is with a dme Berliner. I mixed the dme and water then heated to a boil for 10min for sanitation. I pitched the lacto first and fermented at 100f, let it sour until taste (48hrs), then siphoned to the kettle and boiled a second time for 15min with a small dose of hops. This killed all the lacto. I chilled and pitched the wlp German ale yeast like normal.

The beer is brilliant clear. This might not be true if I had brewed all grain.

I brewed and bottled in December and have not noticed much change in flavor and no change in sourness. This is because I soured first and then killed the lacto with the second boil.

If you follow this method (I stole this from some one here or on BBB), I think you would be fine doing the lactic fermentation in a cheap homer bucket with a lose lid, tubing for siphoning sour beers, and then using your normal equipment after the second boil. All grain would work just as easy.

 

[DelliPhel]

give it time, bugs usually work slow. it will sour and i would pitch nearly any clean ale into it. there isnt much of a Sacc character in this beer. And no airlock activity doesnt mean a thing. i've had beers ferment fully with out any significant airlock activity at all.

 

[stubbornman]

I've had lacto ferment that way in a Berliner. Big "soapy" bubbles if that makes sense. Faded away quickly and is still aging (was moderately tart last time I checked it) after adding brett.

 

[Hellfire_studios]

Stubbornman yes they are big soapy looking bubbles...I have tasted it. Not tart but sour for sure. going to cool it down tonight and pitch the german ale. The nose of it is super funky...kind of like dirty diapers if that makes sense. will the nose change once it is crashed out and the sacro ferment started?

Josh