Berliner Weiss Souring Questions

[Rzlblrt417]

So I am taking a second crack at brewing a sour beer with lacto. First time was the a gose when I had no idea what i was doing and left it exposed to oxygen and it ended up tasting like bile.

This time to sour the beer, I put it back into a carboy that has been purged with co2 and pitched my lacto from a 12 hour starter because I was in a bit of a jam. I used the Omega Lacto that has a forgiving temp range. After about 36 hours of keeping it at about 80F I went to go give it a smell to see if it was tart and it just kinda smells funky. Not so much like vomit, but just not tart. Would that be the beginning of oxygen interference?

Also the airlock is moving backwords with this one pulling in air. Would it be a bad idea to just put a full stopper on it so i don't get oxygen? Im just afraid the negative pressure may bust the carboy.

What do you guys think?

 

[microbusbrewery]

If you have negative pressure that means your cooling down which is resulting in a vacuum. I'd be hesitant to try sealing it because if you drew much of a vacuum on a fully sealed carboy, I could see it cracking. I have a few carboys and they work great, but almost all of them have casting flaws like bubbles and irregularities that result in varying wall thickness. Might be fine, but it'd worry me. I have a 1/4 barrel sanke that I use for kettle souring. The volume (7 gallons) is perfect for pre-boil volumes on 5 gallon batches, so something to consider if you plan to do more kettle sours and you stumble across one. Re souring itself, do you have a pH meter? It's hard to tell where things are at without one...it can be done but it's easier with one. I usually use GoodBelly SuperShots (l. planetarium) and I've noticed a hard to describe aroma during souring. It boils off as I haven't noticed it in the finished beer, but that might be the slight funk you're smelling.

 

[Br3w4u]

I tried the good belly method in my stainless steel pot with the lid on it. That ended terribly....wife thought sewage had backed up in the house because the smell was so bad.

 

[Rzlblrt417]

If you have negative pressure that means your cooling down which is resulting in a vacuum. I'd be hesitant to try sealing it because if you drew much of a vacuum on a fully sealed carboy, I could see it cracking. I have a few carboys and they work great, but almost all of them have casting flaws like bubbles and irregularities that result in varying wall thickness. Might be fine, but it'd worry me. I have a 1/4 barrel sanke that I use for kettle souring. The volume (7 gallons) is perfect for pre-boil volumes on 5 gallon batches, so something to consider if you plan to do more kettle sours and you stumble across one. Re souring itself, do you have a pH meter? It's hard to tell where things are at without one...it can be done but it's easier with one. I usually use GoodBelly SuperShots (l. planetarium) and I've noticed a hard to describe aroma during souring. It boils off as I haven't noticed it in the finished beer, but that might be the slight funk you're smelling.

I can see that at a vacuum is definitely forming from cooling, the haze from the lacto is only at the bottom of the carboy so I moved the carboy heat wrap more towards the top so that the co2 stays warmer.

That's a good idea on the keg, but how do you keep it so warm? Also do you just seal it up or do you have an air lock on it?

Don't have a ph meter yet but one is coming in the mail so I'll have a good idea of what's going on. Until then I'll just have to be patient and hop nothing is going wrong.

I don't see any o the bacterial action or funky stuff forming on the top last time so I may have what you are i talking about. The mix I used also has planterum so I hope that's it.

 

[Rzlblrt417]

I tried the good belly method in my stainless steel pot with the lid on it. That ended terribly....wife thought sewage had backed up in the house because the smell was so bad.

I was in a local brewery while they were doing their kettle sour and they said the most important thing is that the vessel is always purged of oxygen because that's what will happen. Makes this endeavor kinda tricky

 

[davemattb]

I brewed a BW using info from here. Easy and tasted great!! https://www.fivebladesbrewing.com/lactobacillus-starter-guide/

 

[microbusbrewery]

That's a good idea on the keg, but how do you keep it so warm? Also do you just seal it up or do you have an air lock on it?

I actually don't even bother warming it beyond room temp, other than I tend to put it in the warmest room in the house. L. planterum will sour just fine at room temperature, it just takes a little longer. I tried warming my second kettle sour attempt and I don't believe it was a gentle enough heat...I think it cooked it. This was after the first attempt where I didn't do a good enough job of eliminating O2 and things started smelling like a trashcan left out in the summer sun. For the third attempt and ever since, I've used the keg and room temps and it's worked well. It seems to take about 4-5 days for the GoodBelly to drop the pH where I want it. Sometimes I'll let it go six days if I get too busy to do the boil.

My process is, after collecting my pre-boil volume, I typically take it up to 170F for about ten minutes to eliminate any unknown bugs from the grain, then I'll chill to about 100F and transfer to my purged souring keg and pitch GoodBelly. I fit the neck with a #11 drilled stopper and airlock. I usually do the airlock with Star San, so even if I get a little suck back, it doesn't really hurt anything.

 

[z-bob]

Can you float a piece of Saran wrap on the surface to seal out air?

 

[Morrey]

In my kettle sour beer experience, Omega OYL-605 has been the most reliable lacto I have used. I use an airlock with the starter, but have simply covered my kettle with the lid during the souring phase. I firmly believe that if you add lactic acid (or similar) to bring the wort down to 4.5ph prior to pitching your lacto starter, you'll be fine. This lower ph makes a hostile environment for nasties to take hold and spoil your beer. I note that when the wort is souring the smell is like a lemony sweet aroma like an Arnold Palmer lemonade/tea drink. Tart is hard to smell but I describe it as lemony.

When I first started the kettle souring process, I went to great lengths to lay down a bed of CO2 over the wort, cover and wrap the lid with saran all around. I may be criticized for saying this, but I don't think any of those efforts amounted to more than a waste of my time. I quit all that about 20 kettle sours ago and see no difference in the outcome.

If you don't have one, may I suggest a ph meter is an important if not critical tool in your efforts to make exceptional sour beers. ***I see in one of your posts that you have ordered one.

 

[SpeedYellow]

After making several amazing Berliner weisses with goodbelly, I'll offer the following:
1) If you don't have a proper pH meter, you're likely wasting your time.
2) pre-sour the wort to around 4.5.
3) realize that the lactic souring process is highly susceptible to yeast infections, esp. if you sour warm (90-100F). So each time you open the lid to check pH or whatever, you risk spoilage.
4) souring in a kettle with a layer of Saran Wrap on top works perfectly fine, but does carry more yeast-infection-risks than a purged keg. But it's a WHOLE lot easier to clean afterward!