Berliner not souring yet...any suggestions?

[DrKennethNoisewater]

Hey guys....

Question here about a Berliner Weisse that doesn't seem to be souring at all.

Some background: we brewed exactly one week ago and added a vial of Lacto Delbrueckii once the wort cooled down to about 85 degrees. We didn't boil, per the recipe we followed.

However, after pulling samples on Weds and this morning, it's just not sour at all. It tastes awful, in fact, which I'm sure is normal, but it just seems way off. We were gonna hit it with US 05 once it achieved desired sourness, just to clean it up and finish it out.

My understanding was that it would have at least begun to sour by now.....am I jumping the gun here? The recipe said 3-6 days and you should be fine to add the yeast. I'm fermenting at about 78 degrees, for what it's worth.

Any help / suggestions are appreciated.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[DrKennethNoisewater]

Also, it has been fermenting nicely. Tons of action in the airlock and a nice pellicle has formed on the top.

Everything seems to be doing its job.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[Gus_13]

I had a similar experience. Mine ended up being a lot more sour than I thought.

I will say I would like mine held at a higher temp than 78. That tends to be the biggest underlying factor for Lacto to do it's thing. Mine never showed any signs of fermentation but after a few days I pulled a sample and picked up a bit of sourness. I then pitched my clean yeast and let it go to work. After that yeast had finished and I tasted another sample it was very tart. I've heard of others seeing some fermentation signs from just Lacto but I personally haven't gotten any in the 3 batches I've used it.

Do you have a way to raise the temp?

 

[Calder]

Give it more time. My experience is 6 to 7 days at 95 F.

 

[DrKennethNoisewater]

Gus - not really. I've got the temp about 78-79 and that's as good as it's gonna get, unfortunately.

Calder - word. I'll give it another 3-4 days and pull another sample. Hopefully the sour starts to come through.

Btw, I'm pulling and going by taste. Is that the preferred method or should I be looking at PH samples instead?


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[Gus_13]

Gus - not really. I've got the temp about 78-79 and that's as good as it's gonna get, unfortunately.

Calder - word. I'll give it another 3-4 days and pull another sample. Hopefully the sour starts to come through.

Btw, I'm pulling and going by taste. Is that the preferred method or should I be looking at PH samples instead?


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

I personally go by taste. I don't have an accurate pH meter at this moment.

It may take a while at those temps to show sourness. I'd let it go for a while longer.

 

[Matteo57]

I have heard that the wlp677 is pretty useless. Not sure if that's the delbrukii strain you used or not but the reviews on that lacto strain aren't very promising.

 

[scone]

I've had good results from WLP677 a couple of times now, it's the only lacto d. I've used so I can't compare it to Wyeast's but the beers have turned out great. I usually let it go for 48 hours at 90F though next time I might go 72 hours with it just to see. At 48 hours the resulting beer is very easy drinking and lightly tart, but not tart like a Berliner Kindl. I prefer them to be drinkable without having to mix in syrups. ;-)

Also, I would think going by pH would be a better bet. There are a lot of unfermented sugars in your wort before you pitch the yeast so going by taste seems harder as the perceived acidity will come forward as the gravity drops. If you go below a certain pH (can't remember off the top of my head) the yeast will be stressed and might create off flavors.

 

[Matteo57]

I've had good results from WLP677 a couple of times now, it's the only lacto d. I've used so I can't compare it to Wyeast's but the beers have turned out great. I usually let it go for 48 hours at 90F though next time I might go 72 hours with it just to see. At 48 hours the resulting beer is very easy drinking and lightly tart, but not tart like a Berliner Kindl. I prefer them to be drinkable without having to mix in syrups. ;-)

Also, I would think going by pH would be a better bet. There are a lot of unfermented sugars in your wort before you pitch the yeast so going by taste seems harder as the perceived acidity will come forward as the gravity drops. If you go below a certain pH (can't remember off the top of my head) the yeast will be stressed and might create off flavors.

Yeah, I wish I had a ph reader...
In an email correspondence to the mad fermentationist he pretty much told me that he would call 677 useless and to throw out my vial I had just bought because it wouldn't really create much sourness/tartness. ha ha I still have that Vial.... I might just throw it into a beer to see how it turns out but after that comment, the consensus I've found from reviews state pretty much the same. They all suggest Brevis, which is tougher to find.

 

[scone]

I would trust mad fermentationist before I trust me. His book is a really amazing resource on the subject of sour beers...

that being said, for a low gravity, very low IBU wort with no competition (e.g. pitched before the yeast), I wouldn't call 677 useless... I would definitely never pitch it together with brewer's yeast, it's a delicate flower and needs its time to shine.

 

[DrKennethNoisewater]

Yeah, the Lacto D strain was the White Labs 677.

Great...

So there's a good chance that this thing won't sour worth a ****?

Hmm. I guess my best bet is to let it go for another week and then hit it with the yeast. Once it gets cleaned up, hopefully the acidity will come through stronger?

I'm more confused than ever!


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[scone]

so I just noticed this part:

> We didn't boil, per the recipe we followed.

depending on how hot your wort got, there's a chance you have some wild yeast going to town in there. What process did you follow? Also, I could be wrong but I don't think a pure lacto d. can form a pellicle. You may have some other bacteria going on in there... or possibly some brett? What's it smell like?

If it's really pure lacto working on the wort, it should be noticeably souring after 3+ days although the effect might be subtle since the wort will still be very sweet with fermentable sugars.

Also, 78F is a bit low for lactic acid bacteria, they love it in the 90s.

 

[DrKennethNoisewater]

Yeah, we mashed for an hour at about 155, then sparged around 175 to get desired 5 gallons.

From there we cooled to about 85-90 degrees, I added the vial of Lacto and that was that. The fermenter went crazy for the first week, but now it's calmed down. Pellicle was the wrong word - just the typical krausen and sludgy layer on top.

I just have no way of fermenting any higher than about 78 or so. It's now been two weeks (at 78) so I'm thinking I'll just pitch the US-05 and hopefully all ends up well?

I appreciate all th feedback and Wil def welcome more! Thanks!

 

[tgmartin000]

My berliner didn't have a lot of sour until after primary was done with sacch. Just let it go. Give it a few weeks, since 78 is pretty low. Then pitch your sacch, and give that a few weeks. Patience.