belgian candi help

[tnbrewer371]

today i tried my hand at making some belgian candi sugar for use in an upcoming brew. did research for a couple days and here is the process I found pretty much consistently everywhere so this is what I did. Please point out my mistakes cause I feel like I did something wrong because my results were not what I was expecting.

Combined 2 pounds of table sugar with enough water to make a thick syrup and added the juice of an orange (everywhere said lemon juice but I only had an orange on hand and figured it would be acidic enough, right?). Brought to a boil and kept it boiling till it had darkened to the color I wanted, allowed to to come up to 300F (may have gotten to 305 at the most) and poured it into a sheet tray lined with wax paper and allowed to cool in the fridge. The problem I have with the product I ended up with is it is milky looking not clear? is this common? can anyone see where I may have gone wrong? thanks guys.

 

[Nateo]

"Candi sugar" when referenced in Belgian recipes is referring to a type of syrup. If you're making rocks, you're not making what Belgians use.
http://www.brewlikeamonk.com/?p=88

So, instead of cooling it off at reaching your terminal temperature, you could've added more water to cool it down, and it would've stayed liquid. I'd do some research on the Google about candy making to get a better idea of what temperatures do what.

 

[tnbrewer371]

ok well i was trying to make belgian candi sugar, not belgian candi syrup...belgian candi sugar near as my research has shown me is basically invert rock candi.

 

[Nateo]

I'll save you the trouble to click through to my link:

Candi sugar: References to “candi sugar” when Belgian brewers began using such an ingredient most often described caramel syrup, not the clear to dark rocks sold in the United States as “Belgian candi sugar.” The rocks you liquefy by tossing into a kettle are made by lowering cotton strings with seed crystals into hot solutions of sugar. What we really care about is the sugar itself.

Today, when brewers at Westmalle and Orval refer to candi sugar, they specify using it in liquid form. Most other brewers, Trappist and secular, who once used “clear candi sugar” have replaced it with sucrose or dextrose. As well as adding white sugar to the kettle, Rochefort includes cassonade brune in its recipes. While that translates to “brown sugar,” Candico in Antwerp produces something much different than Americans think of in making “candysugar” (its term) and cassonade brune: “granulated crystals, obtained from cooling down strongly concentrated sucrose-solutions boiled at very high temperatures.” Most of Candico’s sales to confectionary producers, biscuit factories, and breweries are “candysugar” in syrup form.

 

[tnbrewer371]

How about rereading my original post of this thread, not once did I discuss the accuracy of using rock candi vs candi syrup in making an authentic belgian ale as a matter of fact I never even discussed what id be brewing, for all you know I could be brewing a willy wonka style ale that calls for belgian candi sugar, in rock form, I was just looking for some information on if what I did, that has been discussed numerous times elsewhere, was done correctly? And if my resultant is a common outcome? Hey I can be a smart ass to: "I guess read and absorb info before posting?"

 

[Nateo]

You said you tried to make "belgian candi sugar" not "rock candy." They are not the same thing.

"Please point out my mistakes cause I feel like I did something wrong because my results were not what I was expecting."

You did. I tried to. If you had said "I'm trying to make rock candy" then I would've given you different advice.

 

[dorklord]

I don't recall the temperatures off hand, but I did make a batch of light candi sugar at home. I used lemon juice, and for other batches I've used citric acid.

My guess would be that the orange juice introduced something non-soluble. (pulp?) that is causing the candi sugar not to clear.

Another option would be that there simply wasn't enough acid to invert the sugar.

Finally, I suppose it is possible that there are a lot of gas bubbles that were trapped in the sugar as it cooled. But I think the syrup degasses pretty easily, and I've never seen it hold any significant bubbles as it solidifies.

Roughly how much orange juice did you use and how much sugar?

 

[smears]

I've brewed two beers lately that called for belgian candy sugar, and both the kits I got came w/ the solid, rock-like sugar. Also, it was milky not clear. One was an orval clone, the other was a delirium tremens clone.

The orval turned out great, the dt is still in secondary.

Hope that helps.

 

[dorklord]

Oh, and by the way, I'd go ahead an use the sugar you've got for whatever purpose you intended. The fact that it isn't clear shouldn't cause any trouble. At the very worst, it might not have all inverted, which isn't a big deal.

 

[rjwhite41]

Syrup is just rock candi with more water in it to the best of my knowledge. Syrup is easier to dissolve in wort and that's why breweries prefer it. I personally believe that you can get more flavor out of syrup as well since some of the compounds that create flavor can be absorbed into the water. Anyway, I'm not sure I see the point of clear rock candi or clear syrup. Why not just add sugar? There really is no flavor there.

 

[Revvy]

Back on track with your original post. It's not going to matter one whit whether or not the candi, rock, syrup or what ever anyone wants to call it is clear or not. They yeast don't care. They're going to gobble it up just fine. It's not going to affect anything in your finished product. We dump brown sugar into our beers all the time (well some of us) and that's far from clear. What you're making is an ingredient for the yeast to consume, the color is only for us about caramelazation of the flavor, not the appearance.

Relax!

 

[tnbrewer371]

It was my understanding that the inversion process in m/aking the sugar into candi made it easier for the yeast to consume without all the extra effort which is why I invertrd it before hand, also I plan on adding it dissolved in some water after high krausen so the acidity of the wort won't be able to invert it for me in the boil process.

 

[dorklord]

Syrup is just rock candi with more water in it to the best of my knowledge. Syrup is easier to dissolve in wort and that's why breweries prefer it. I personally believe that you can get more flavor out of syrup as well since some of the compounds that create flavor can be absorbed into the water. Anyway, I'm not sure I see the point of clear rock candi or clear syrup. Why not just add sugar? There really is no flavor there.

The differences I can see are that you are making invert sugar. The idea being that the yeast have an easier time fermenting the invert sugar than they do sucrose. How much difference this will actually make in your beer...well, I'm sure that depends on a huge variety of factors, and any difference will probably be subjective and thus debatable.

Much more significant is that with plain sugar, it is white. With candi sugar, you may be making light, amber, or dark candi sugar. And when you make it yourself, you have the ability to fine-tune the sugar to produce the desired result.

I will say, though, that it seems like a lot of work if you are making clear candi sugar. In that case, I'd say either use table sugar, or if you are worried about an impact on flavor, just use corn sugar...

 

[Revvy]

It was my understanding that the inversion process in m/aking the sugar into candi made it easier for the yeast to consume without all the extra effort which is why I invertrd it before hand, also I plan on adding it dissolved in some water after high krausen so the acidity of the wort won't be able to invert it for me in the boil process.

And some folks believe that the inversion process actually happens fine on it's own when we add sugar to a boil. I really don't worry about that stuff, noone really knows, it's one of those things where there's tons of opinions and theories. I think of it more as adding sugar, that by boiling to certain colors is going to create a flavor profile by creating certain flavors (based on unfermentability actually) from the caramelization...

Remember plenty of other beer styles call for adding sugar, and only the belgians think they need something "special" done to it. And yet their beers turn out fine. The yeast wants to eat sugar, it likes eating suger....whether we think we need to wave a magic wand over it or not.

And also for every brewer who thinks they need to go through the extra step of inverting it, there's other who make belgians and don't bother. I've done it both ways, and can't really discern the difference. I think in truth they are too negligable to notice.

 

[mkling]

It was my understanding that the inversion process in m/aking the sugar into candi made it easier for the yeast to consume without all the extra effort which is why I invertrd it before hand, also I plan on adding it dissolved in some water after high krausen so the acidity of the wort won't be able to invert it for me in the boil process.

Inverting the sugar in this situation is good. The yeast have a harder time directly consuming raw sucrose & inverting it does make it easier. The other easy way to do this, of course, is to just use dextrose because it is also easy for the yeast to consume like invert sugar. But if you're enjoying the process of making the candi sugar or are looking for some extra flavor from it, then that's definitely a worthwhile route.

Also, I'll agree with others in reassuring you that the "milky" appearance won't matter a bit. My bet is that it's air inside the sugar.

 

[rjwhite41]

If you make it clear, you have done nothing to change the flavor. The flavor changes are caused by caramelization and maillard reactions. I do not believe the yeast have any trouble consuming table sugar. In fact sugar has been used in many styles for many years with great success as Revvy pointed out. Many commercial brewers use regular sugar. Unless you are making dark candi syrup or rock sugar I believe you are wasting your time. If anyone has any scientific reading involving yeast being able to eat invert sugar easier and thus creating a better tasting product I would be more than happy to read it.

 

[camiller]

I wholeheartedly suggest this thread here at hbt. The author adds DAP (a yeast nutrient) to the sugar which "provides Nitrogen for mailard reactions (non enzymatic browning) to occur. These occur between ~270F and ~320F. "

 

[SickTransitMundus]

+1 for table sugar. Saccharomyces has no problem hydrolyzing sucrose. I use it in all my golden Belgians, with indistinguishable results from syrup/rocks.

Dark Belgians, however, are another story. For those I use dark syrup to get rum flavors.

 

[ultravista]

Revvy - I too am looking at a Belgian clone, a Rochefort 8. The recipe calls for 3 pounds of dark candi syrup.

Are you saying regular plane-jane white sugar, 3 pounds of it, will produce the same flavor profile as 3 pounds of dark candi syrup?

 

[tre9er]

+1 for table sugar. Saccharomyces has no problem hydrolyzing sucrose. I use it in all my golden Belgians, with indistinguishable results from syrup/rocks.

Dark Belgians, however, are another story. For those I use dark syrup to get rum flavors.

I made invert last time. It wasn't hard and was recommended by my local micro brewery for the Belgian style, so what the heck

 

[beergolf]

Revvy - I too am looking at a Belgian clone, a Rochefort 8. The recipe calls for 3 pounds of dark candi syrup.

Are you saying regular plane-jane white sugar, 3 pounds of it, will produce the same flavor profile as 3 pounds of dark candi syrup?

White sugar just ferments out and adds no flavor. Dark candi syrup adds a lot of flavor. Use the dark syrup for that recipe.