Beginning brewers - You can start with all grain

[Jayjay1976]

I've changed my mind about starting out with extract brewing; extract is how most people get a successful start in the hobby and I think simplicity is key in building confidence during those first critical batches. A tasty first batch provides critical encouragement to delve deeper into the hobby, and mashing is decidedly more complicated.

I was just recalling how the first step in getting my pilot's license wasn't ground school or even tandem flights with an instructor. It was running around the backyard, arms outstretched, making engine noises with my lips and gazing into the wild blue.

Incidentally that's how I still start my days, running down the jetway toward the cockpit, making engine sounds and clothes lining any stews who are unlucky enough to get in my way.

 

[lump42]

My first AG batch took no extra equipment (minus fermentor, siphon, airlocks). 1 gal AG kit from Brooklyn Brewshop. Mashed in a pot I had and lautered the mash into a colander over a second pot. No need to even purchase a fabric bag at that level.

 

[Soulshine2]

It's not a question as to whether it *can* be done. It can. It's a question of whether it's the way to bet.

IMO, it's not the way to bet. You'll see people--in this thread even--say they started with all-grain as if anyone else starting brings to the table the exact same knowledge, equipment, and resources (including water) that they did.

Of course, they don't. Anyone who says "I did it, so can you" is assuming an awful lot.

*******

New brewers can do what they want. If they think it's worth having all those moving parts on their first brew, and they want to take a shot, go ahead. It's their choice, their life.

But if they want the maximum chance of a good first brew, IMO the fewer moving parts, the better.

just to be clear. I did not say it couldn't be done. I'm saying it depends on an individuals general skill and ability to figure things out.

Mongoose33, while I agree MOST should start extract, I and some others enjoy the challenge of going all grain to start. My LHBS guy said I was probably only the second person he knew that planned on going all grain as their first brew. I have always been a "go big or go home" sort of guy. I have been an industrial maintenance mechanic all of my life and enjoy a challenge. Tinkering with stuff is what I do. I spent two months doing research on the entire process (just ask my wonderful wife. I got into this hobby with her encouragement) before I made any equipment purchase and felt comfortable with doing it that way. I have never known another home brewer, so I didn't have the opportunity to watch a brew day before I did my first brew. Never had a mentor to teach me other than the wonderful people here. You can go all grain as your first brew, it just takes more planning and education to get it right. I am happy to say every one of my beers have been good if not excellent. I have a group that call themselves my Beer test dummies. These guys are all very into craft beer and give honest criticism that helps me to continue to improve. My advice to any new brewer is do what you are comfortable with. Extract, partial mash or all grain , it's up to you to decide what you are comfortable with, as long as you have fun, THAT is what is important.

THIS ^

 

[Ninoid]

If water is good for drinking this is also god for beer. If use BIAB with no sparge water chemistry is not so important. I use no sparge with god bag squeeze and I always have an efficiency greater than 70%.

 

[Jako]

If water is good for drinking this is also god for beer. If use BIAB with no sparge water chemistry is not so important. I use no sparge with god bag squeeze and I always have an efficiency greater than 70%.

i had better efficiency with BIAB. it took 5 or 6 batches to figure out my mash tun and sparge.

 

[specharka]

Posters have been indirectly pointing out that AG (not BIAB which is an intermediate step) requires more to start whether it's information, equipment or time.

BIAB is AG, by definition. It’s a bit silly to call it anything less.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

BIAB is AG, by definition. It’s a bit silly to call it anything less.

I agree. For me, it's silly (well, actually, it's useless to me) to think of BIAB as an intermediate step.

My goal with homebrewing as a hobby is along the lines of "The best beer possible with the least effort possible while having the most fun possible" (http://brulosophy.com/2015/09/24/be-a-homebrewer-an-open-letter-from-denny-conn) where "best beer", "least effort, and "most fun" are "static" in the short term, but change over time.

I'm not a video game player, so "gamification" (move to the next level and never look back) isn't my thing.

I like the idea of adding skills, but don't see those skills as being assigned a "level" (like grade school or college). In various topics (here, and in other forums) people have noted that they went from enjoyable all-grain beers to enjoyable DME/LME beers. Is this a "demotion" for them? Were "they held back a level"? To me, it seems like they continued to make enjoyable (to them) beer.

 

[Hopalong]

The decision to start with syrup or grain depends on a brewer's definition of ale and lager. Prohibition style beer or authentic ale and lager.

Brewers/Bakers Malt Extract is a bi-product of three tests performed on malt. When malt fails the test used during the mash rest at 145F, malt fails brewers grade standard and moves down to distillers/food grade standard. Malt that fails brewers grade standard is turned into syrup, otherwise, the malt would be off to a brewery instead of a processing factory. The syrup is missing the sugar that Beta amylase makes and without the sugar it's Prohibition style beer made with syrup.

All grain Catch 22: When a brewer uses fully modified homebrew malt it is very possible the malt lacks Beta amylase and without adding enzymes the malt can't produce ale and lager. Recipes omit the conversion rest because the malt is missing Beta amylase and when Beta is missing, maltose and maltotriose do not form. When wort contains maltose and maltotriose which are complex types of sugar secondary fermentation is required which is a no-no in homebrewing. Without the sugar it's pretty difficult to make ale and lager but not to difficult to make all grain Prohibition style beer.

Another decision falls on whether a brewer wants to make real homemade, homebrew using syrup like back in the old days or produce the style of beer that moonshiners made during Prohibition. The first method takes a couple of hours, the second method a couple of hours more.
The first method is consistent and produces a stabile beer because quality control is involved when syrup is produced for the food industry.
The second method is consistent as the weather because malt is inconsistent. It could have been stored improperly which causes malt to become slack. Due to malt being inconsistent it is tested and the test results are listed on a spec sheet that goes with every bag of malt. A spec sheet is used prior to purchasing malt to determine if the malt will produce ale and lager or if it would be better suited to make whiskey with. I'm not sure if the sheet is mentioned in homebrew literature. A recipe would need to include a spec sheet for the brewer to purchase malt very similar to the malt originally used in the recipe before making the beer.
To make authentic ale and lager the decoction method is used with brewers grade malt and a few hours in the brewery. It takes two to how many hours to make beer similar in quality to Prohibition style beer, why not use the time to produce authentic ale and lager? Time is time.

 

[davidabcd]

BIAB is AG, by definition. It’s a bit silly to call it anything less.

That was your takeaway? I'm fairly certain you're being snide and have nothing positive to say; however, I will give you the benefit of the doubt and approach this differently.
Technically, I didn't call BIAB anything but an "intermediate step."
You have enough posts under your belt on HBT to know there are different forums which list the two (all grain and BIAB) separately. If they were identical, there would be no reason to list them both. If you didn't understand, that is what I was referring to.
With that knowledge now in hand, and those definitions in place, the OP was speaking about AG brewing and not BIAB which can easily be viewed as "intermediate" and why I differentiated it from AG.

 

[brewcat]

Extract has less variables to control. That's a good thing for a new brewer. It is a good first step that gives you an idea. I'm not sure starting all grain is the best route for most. But you can. I just feel like starting all grain is a little overwhelming.

 

[AZCoolerBrewer]

My last batch was a partigyle AG BIAB (18). The batch before that was all DME single hop. The DME beer turned out great. I don’t know about my partigyle beers yet. They are at almost 1 week in the bottle.

New brewers have the resources to do whatever they want these days. There is little advantage to doing AG vs. DME. I’ve never used LME so I can’t comment on that. With AG you have more control to achieve specific goals, but you also have more rope to hang yourself with. If you want to be successful starting with AG then you would have to prepare more. I started with extract and botched it pretty good, but made beer and caught the bug. Had I done AG BIAB first I may have blown it and not wanted to try again. My first batch was to see if this was something fun that I wanted to do. I didn’t have the drive to learn then that I do now. Extract for my first beer was for me a good choice though I didn’t know it then.

Phoenix water sux, not everyone has easy access to good water. Phoenix has chloromines in the water which I have heard can only be removed through RO or activated charcoal filtering. I buy bottled water for my beer. Bad water makes extract beers just as worse as AG bad water assuming you have Phoenix water problems.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I started with 1-gal AG on my stove top.
My initial investment (actually, gifted to me) was a 5 gal kettle, thermometer, 1-gal carboy, stopper, airlock, tubing, starsan, bottles, caps, and capper.
I followed the instructions in the kit.
I did no research beforehand.
It was beer.

What are you guys saying about learning curve and expense?

It turns out making beer isn't really all that complicated. AG requires being able to heat water to a particular temperature and then pour the mash through a strainer after an hour. Is there somebody of drinking age that can't handle that step?

I wouldn't fault anyone for starting with extract, but I wouldn't push anyone that way either. The one LME batch I made (after I learned a lot about brewing) was not something I'd repeat.
I think starting with 5 gal is the real mistake.

BIAB is a method to brew All Grain (as opposed to some amount of extract).

 

[North_of_60]

.... the OP was speaking about AG brewing and not BIAB which can easily be viewed as "intermediate" and why I differentiated it from AG.

When I Build my own recipe in BeerSmith I have three options to choose from: Extract, Partial Mash, or All Grain. I choose All Grain. When I research recipes for making a certain style of beer I search the All Grain recipes.

I consider BIAB to be just one of several different ways of mashing an All Grain recipe. Therefore, I consider BIAB to be All Grain.

 

[mongoose33]

If water is good for drinking this is also god for beer. If use BIAB with no sparge water chemistry is not so important. I use no sparge with god bag squeeze and I always have an efficiency greater than 70%.

This is one of the worst bits of advice I ever read w/r/t brewing. It was in Palmer's book. I like how my water tastes, but it's very alkaline and has chlorine in it. In no way, shape, or form is it good for brewing. It's softened, and chlorinated. My first beers had issues, and from what I know now, those issues were water-related.

How your water tastes is not indicative of how it'll do in brewing. Might be ok, but not necessarily. And certainly not a given.

 

[Sadu]

I disagree.

Brewing is broken down into hot-side process and cold-side process, and both are almost completely independent of each other.

Managing your cold side is enough of a challenge for many people. You gotta nail sanitation, yeast health, fermentation temps, and the whole bottling/kegging/carbonation process. That is a lot to deal with right there.

I say start off with a hopped extract kit and get your cold-side sorted. You are never going to make good beer without good cold-side process.

Once you have good cold-side and are ready to learn new tricks, move to BIAB or partial mash and focus on hot-side process.

The good thing about all this is that you don't waste any gear. That fermentor you bought for your hopped extract kit still works great for all-grain.

It's different of course if you have a buddy to hold your hand while you get started with all-grain, but not everyone does and those people are more likely to find success with extract.

 

[Velnerj]

I get that brewing can seem overwhelming. But let's not kid ourselves here it's not THAT difficult or complicated. If it were, many if us wouldn't be doing it.

It's a bit of snobbery assuming AG is too complicated for a new brewer. Just because you couldn't piece things together right away doesn't mean someone else can't either.

It's simply not rocket science.

I also understand that many people enter a hobby half-assed without knowing much. In those cases they are better off starting slow, but if you have a passion and hunger for it there's no reason not to go AG immediately.

 

[davidabcd]

When I Build my own recipe in BeerSmith I have three options to choose from: Extract, Partial Mash, or All Grain. I choose All Grain. When I research recipes for making a certain style of beer I search the All Grain recipes.
I consider BIAB to be just one of several different ways of mashing an All Grain recipe. Therefore, I consider BIAB to be All Grain.

I agree, it is one of several ways.
"One of several ways" is exactly and only what I'm differentiating by labeling one "AG" and one "BIAB."
I have not said, at any point, that BIAB doesn't use all grains to make wort.
I would be happy to call it AGBIAB or BIABAG but I must insist on getting credit for the acronym if it catches on (I googled both and it has not, at least for Googlel).
When I see "BIAB" used here, isn't it generally referring to the less equipment/simpler/fewer step version?

 

[RPh_Guy]

Beginning brewers - Some people come here just to argue

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

If water is good for drinking this is also god for beer. ...

This is one of the worst bits of advice I ever read w/r/t brewing. It was in Palmer's book. ...

How your water tastes is not indicative of how it'll do in brewing. Might be ok, but not necessarily. And certainly not a given.

Was this in one of the earlier editions of How To Brew? I know that the 4th edition clearly notes that with extract brewing, one should start with distilled water, RO water, or low mineral water.

 

[Bobby_M]

I agree, it is one of several ways.
"One of several ways" is exactly and only what I'm differentiating by labeling one "AG" and one "BIAB."
I have not said, at any point, that BIAB doesn't use all grains to make wort.
I would be happy to call it AGBIAB or BIABAG but I must insist on getting credit for the acronym if it catches on (I googled both and it has not, at least for Googlel).
When I see "BIAB" used here, isn't it generally referring to the less equipment/simpler/fewer step version?

So in your opinion the more vessels you use or more complex processes are "more all grainy"? This is not very sound reasoning. All grain brewing is the process of deriving all or the vast majority of your fermentable sugars from cereal grains. The end.

This isn't even getting into arguements of preference, quality or enjoyment. It's a simple definition.

 

[Jayjay1976]

...there are different forums which list the two (all grain and BIAB) separately. If they were identical, there would be no reason to list them both...

Nonsense. I'll refer back to third grade logic to make sure you don't fall off; all BIAB brewers are AG brewers, but not all AG brewers are BIAB brewers. Wrt AG brewing, BIAB is a distinction, not a difference. Make sense? Biffers, boffers, bowfers, all happily coexisting in their respective sub-forums, except for the extract brewers who tend to be a little self-conscious and insecure.

 

[Soulshine2]

This is one of the worst bits of advice I ever read w/r/t brewing. It was in Palmer's book. I like how my water tastes, but it's very alkaline and has chlorine in it. In no way, shape, or form is it good for brewing.

How your water tastes is not indicative of how it'll do in brewing. Might be ok, but not necessarily. And certainly not a given.

I can totally get behind this. I mean the water I grew up drinking was out of a community well, it was out of limestone ,hard as hell but through a water softener it tasted good, hell we drank it out of the hose. Nowadays theres so many "things" in the water , fluoride,chlorine(taste it every sunday), who knows what else. I dont have one YET, but I would like to put my water through a charcoal filter .

 

[mongoose33]

Was this in one of the earlier editions of How To Brew? I know that the 4th edition clearly notes that with extract brewing, one should start with distilled water, RO water, or low mineral water.

Yes, it was. I didn't find it in the newest edition, which is actually quite comprehensive and a deal for what they're charging.

If i have a complaint about the newest edition, I'm not sure it's the best for new brewers. Water advice aside, I thought the 3rd edition was better.

I've said that brewing is simple, but not simplistic. Imagine saying that to a newbie, then handing them the newest edition.

None of this is to denigrate Palmer; he's done a lot for home brewing and for all I know, the advice in the last edition was put there by an editor. Palmer does water workshops so I'm quite sure he knew. I just wish I'd known at the outset that my softened, heavily mineralized and chlorinated water wasn't the best for brewing.

 

[davidabcd]

Nonsense. I'll refer back to third grade logic to make sure you don't fall off; all BIAB brewers are AG brewers, but not all AG brewers are BIAB brewers. Wrt AG brewing, BIAB is a distinction, not a difference. Make sense? Biffers, boffers, bowfers, all happily coexisting in their respective sub-forums, except for the extract brewers who tend to be a little self-conscious and insecure.

Regardless of you being insulting, AG and BIAB have not become identical methods (one is still generally simpler to do) and I still never said BIAB didn't use all grains.
Ironically, based on part of your statement -- "all BIAB brewers are AG brewers, but not all AG brewers are BIAB brewers." --you agree with me; however, you don't realize this so you went off passionately about something that isn't there.
You should probably reread the posts.

 

[davidabcd]

There has been much "reading between the lines" to what I have said in this thread and getting some non sequitur, snide or angry responses.
If BIAB and AG do not use different methods, please let me know. I am of the understanding that BIAB is an easier method, fewer steps, less equipment or whatever than AG. I have only been differentiating them based on procedure and, for heaven's sake, not on ingredients. They are listed separately, I'm guessing because of procedure. If I am incorrect, let me know?
If some are all riled up for one reason or another, then so be it.
Thank you.
Edit 12:25 pm EST: sentence should read "If some are all riled up for some other reason, so be it."

 

[Jayjay1976]

Regardless of you being insulting, AG and BIAB have not become identical methods (one is still generally simpler to do) and I still never said BIAB didn't use all grains.
Ironically, based on part of your statement -- "all BIAB brewers are AG brewers, but not all AG brewers are BIAB brewers." --you agree with me; however, you don't realize this so you went off passionately about something that isn't there.
You should probably reread the posts.

Traditional AG brewing involves the use of a mash/lauter tun; BIAB is a modern alternative AG technique which requires only one vessel instead of three. Both are ALL-GRAIN techniques.

 

[specharka]

That was your takeaway? I'm fairly certain you're being snide and have nothing positive to say; however, I will give you the benefit of the doubt and approach this differently.
Technically, I didn't call BIAB anything but an "intermediate step."
You have enough posts under your belt on HBT to know there are different forums which list the two (all grain and BIAB) separately. If they were identical, there would be no reason to list them both. If you didn't understand, that is what I was referring to.
With that knowledge now in hand, and those definitions in place, the OP was speaking about AG brewing and not BIAB which can easily be viewed as "intermediate" and why I differentiated it from AG.

I wasn’t being snide then, but I certainly can be.

It’s more than a bit elitist to deride a form of all-grain brewing as “an intermediate step”. Brew-in-a-bag is definitively all-grain brewing, and it doesn’t matter that it has its own dedicated forum. BIAB produces comparable results to other AG brewing methods. This year’s NHC results are more than indicative of that — plenty of gold medal winners used BIAB to make their beers.

I understand there are differences between BIAB and other AG brewing methods, but that doesn’t invalidate it as a valid method just because John Palmer didn’t include it in How to Brew. If you noticed my previous posts in this thread, I attempted to dismiss the notion that all-grain brewing inherently requires more equipment and therefore startup costs than extract — you can get a brew bag for $30 and a 10g kettle for under $100.

Moreover, I think it’s erroneous to insist there is a difference between BIAB and AG brewing, especially when novice brewers use this forum as an educational vessel for jumping into the hobby.

 

[schematix]

A cooler mash tun can be had for about a hundred bucks and change.

Even if you only use it a couple times you'll nearly offset the cost of the extract. Extract beer costs just as much to make as it does to buy commercial beer in the store. All grain is much more economical.

Better yet just go balls deep with a mash tun, a grain mill, and a bulk sack of some base malt. Start saving money right from the start.

 

[davidabcd]

It’s more than a bit elitist to deride a form of all-grain brewing as “an intermediate step”. Brew-in-a-bag is definitively all-grain brewing, and it doesn’t matter that it has its own dedicated forum. BIAB produces comparable results to other AG brewing methods. This year’s NHC results are more than indicative of that — plenty of gold medal winners used BIAB to make their beers.

I understand there are differences between BIAB and other AG brewing methods, but that doesn’t invalidate it as a valid method just because John Palmer didn’t include it in How to Brew. If you noticed my previous posts in this thread, I attempted to dismiss the notion that all-grain brewing inherently requires more equipment and therefore startup costs than extract — you can get a brew bag for $30 and a 10g kettle for under $100.

Moreover, I think it’s erroneous to insist there is a difference between BIAB and AG brewing, especially when novice brewers use this forum as an educational vessel for jumping into the hobby.

Fine, I'm glad you weren't being snide. I will take your word on that and so I apologize.

The thread, originally, is about traditional AG (meaning not BIAB) vs extract, "...one is not necessarily easier than the other...." My only argument was that extract is easier. I didn't suggest that someone do or not do anything, that one is better, and so on.
I only brought up BIAB, not to bash it as I accidentally did, but to differentiate it from traditional AG because the original argument isn't about BIAB (because it wasn't mentioned in the OP) but about traditional AG vs extract.
You said "deride." Maybe the confusion here is, you and maybe others, think I was deriding BIAB by calling it "intermediate." I really wasn't and I wasn't even thinking of quality when I said that, only procedure.
How would I feel if someone called extract a beginner level? I'd be okay with that, because it can be. The theoretical person who called it a beginner level only said that and did not imply anything else.
"Intermediate," as regards BIAB, was only referring to procedure--only procedure. Not the best word to use, I'm learning, but BIAB could be used that way, right? I wouldn't and don't consider it "less than." That's more than likely how I would proceed, if I were inclined. I already have that equipment, instructions seem easy enough to follow and from what I've read, it seems doable, not too intimidating. That's how I'm looking at it and that is all I was thinking, nothing more.
As you pointed out (which I didn't doubt anyway) there's no limit to quality with BIAB.

 

[AZCoolerBrewer]

Is MIAB all grain?

 

[Ninoid]

Is MIAB all grain?

What is MBIAB?

 

[North_of_60]

I’m guessing here but, Mash in a Bag.

 

[Bobby_M]

I am just suggesting that any brand new brewer might be able to happily start with all grain if they desire. There isn't much difference between that and extract, one is not necessarily easier than the other, there are just different steps involved in each. I get sick of the idea of all grain requiring more experience or expertise vs extract because they both produce excellent beers and it's really a matter of how many hours out of your day do you want to spend brewing?! But I suggest that anyone who is able to extract brew is also entirely capable of all grain brewing if they are willing to spend the extra time that the process demands.

Everyone is capable of brewing all grain but I'll argue against the statement that all grain does not require more expertise. Of course there will be people that jump into hobbies, or any task for that matter, with intensity of commitment, research, etc. Sure. If we're talking about the average new brewer, no way. I think about it a lot because as a homebrew shop owner, initial success for my customers is both a personal and business goal. It's very easy to understand this when you list out all the things you have to learn and execute for both methods. My main is that you'll find all grain brewing has a significant additional task load on top of the things you have to learn for ONLY extract brewing. Breaking the learning up into two sessions is beneficial because it increases odds of first brew success.

Extract:
Water: just use bottled distilled. Some for the boil, the rest at 35F for fast cooling during topoff. No need for mineral additions.
Steeping Grains: Almost any water volume, wide temperature range, wide time range. You can only affect the beer negatively by overheating past 170F.
Boil: Concentrated boil reasonable. Understanding hopping schedules
Chilling: Ice bath the boiled wort, top off with frozen or highly chilled top bottled water.
Sanitizing cold side parts
Pitch yeast at appropriate temps.
Ferment
Sanitize bottles and associated bottling and racking gear
Rack and bottle without oxidation being sure to adequately stir priming sugar.
Cap bottles.

OK. That's quite a lot to get your head around right there. My beginner classes cover all of that and it takes at least 2 hours to explain it.

All Grain (I'll focus on BIAB because it does have a simplified PROCESS in the grand scheme of all possible all grain brewing methods)

Water: Safe bet, use distilled and add salts. More complicate, get a water report and learn to compensate in a number of ways using spreadsheets. If you ignore water and make decent beer, it's either luck or a palette that cannot discern the difference.

Mashing: Compared to extract, heating a lot more water in a bigger pot. Can the stove handle it? If not, propane burner. Hold relatively narrow temperature ranges. Required acidification of pale beer mashes to keep pH in check.

Wort separation, BIAB pulleys, strainers, etc.

Full boils practical (just about required). Larger volume to transfer to fermenter, larger volume to chill without the benefit of cold top up water. Wort chiller is the practical solution.

When I teach an all grain class, the beginner class is a prerequisite and I highly recommend attending after one or two extract batches. This class alone is at least 1.5 hours of lecture content in addition to performing the process real time.


Summary, all grain is not a realistic first homebrew process for MOST people (because we've already seen success anecdotes from the margins). If you find all difficulty a fun challenge then you already know you're an outlier.

 

[Ninoid]

BIAB in plastic electric pot is very cheap and easy for making smaller quantities of beer, up to 80L per month.

 

[Bobby_M]

Technically, I didn't call BIAB anything but an "intermediate step."

That was exactly the statement that many people took exception to. I started brewing all grain 12 years ago with a pot and a cooler. Then I built a 3 vessel direct fire system like the Brutus 10. Then I went back to a pot and a cooler but heated the pot electrically. Then I tried single vessel electric BIAB for a while. Having built a prototype 3-vessel electric HERMS for my business I spent some time brewing on it and now I'm back to BIAB and will likely never change to anything else.

In other words, BIAB is my end game and several other methods were my intermediate steps. BIAB "All Grain" is just one very specific way to manufacture wort from grain. I too was misinformed about BIAB before I embraced it.

 

[davidabcd]

That was exactly the statement that many people took exception to. I started brewing all grain 12 years ago with a pot and a cooler. Then I built a 3 vessel direct fire system like the Brutus 10. Then I went back to a pot and a cooler but heated the pot electrically. Then I tried single vessel electric BIAB for a while. Having built a prototype 3-vessel electric HERMS for my business I spent some time brewing on it and now I'm back to BIAB and will likely never change to anything else.

@Bobby_M. Edit: I might have hit the "reply" when my response wasn't ready so I deleted everything though I lost some decent material. I'll reply either today or tomorrow.

 

[davidabcd]

That was exactly the statement that many people took exception to. I started brewing all grain 12 years ago with a pot and a cooler. Then I built a 3 vessel direct fire system like the Brutus 10. Then I went back to a pot and a cooler but heated the pot electrically. Then I tried single vessel electric BIAB for a while. Having built a prototype 3-vessel electric HERMS for my business I spent some time brewing on it and now I'm back to BIAB and will likely never change to anything else.

In other words, BIAB is my end game and several other methods were my intermediate steps. BIAB "All Grain" is just one very specific way to manufacture wort from grain. I too was misinformed about BIAB before I embraced it.

If I am misinformed on BIAB, then the "Sticky" thread on BIAB here would be misinformation, which it isn't, so I'm all set there.
A few have taken offense where none was intended or written so the reader had to assume I meant something more that I didn't say. It is difficult defending something one hasn't said.
I've explained previously, in great detail, what I was referring to with "intermediate." If you've read everything, then there is no reason you or anyone else should have a problem that I see it that way or that it could be seen that way by another. If you were just being helpful in pointing out that "intermediate" was my error, I'm aware of that and answered that above in detail.
Extract is my end game. I'm perfectly happy with it.
In any case, my point, put a different way, is could it be possible for someone to advance from extract to BIAB to traditional AG? Yes, it could. It is logical and it's how I would do it to see if I liked it. I have not said anything negative about anything.

BIAB still looks like a simpler method to me than whatever you want to call the three vessel system, which was the reason I brought it up originally and differentiated it. That was my only intention there.

 

[mongoose33]

If I am misinformed on BIAB, then the "Sticky" thread on BIAB here would be misinformation, which it isn't, so I'm all set there.
A few have taken offense where none was intended or written so the reader had to assume I meant something more that I didn't say. It is difficult defending something one hasn't said.
I've explained previously, in great detail, what I was referring to with "intermediate." If you've read everything, then there is no reason you or anyone else should have a problem that I see it that way or that it could be seen that way by another. If you were just being helpful in pointing out that "intermediate" was my error, I'm aware of that and answered that above in detail.
Extract is my end game. I'm perfectly happy with it.
In any case, my point, put a different way, is could it be possible for someone to advance from extract to BIAB to traditional AG? Yes, it could. It is logical and it's how I would do it to see if I liked it. I have not said anything negative about anything.

BIAB still looks like a simpler method to me than whatever you want to call the three vessel system, which was the reason I brought it up originally and differentiated it. That was my only intention there.

David, this is more an extension of these issues than it is a direct response to what you said.

I think there's a fair amount of talking past people in this thread. BIAB is an all-grain approach. How it differs from a traditional fly-sparge approach, or a batch-sparge approach, just has to do with differences in efficiency and how you get to where you're going. And even then, some people sparge with the BIAB method or, alternatively to that, squeeze the bag to get extra wort. But it clearly is all-grain, as generally when people do this, no extract is used.

I've done a traditional mash tun with a batch sparge. I could never see the advantage of a fly sparge approach over batch sparge, other than some efficiency gain. And to me--TO ME--that additional cost in time wasn't worth the small savings in ingredients.

I've been doing LODO brewing, but should I decide to stop doing it, or to do some batches LODO and others in a more traditional fashion, I'd probably go back to BIAB. It's just so darned simple and relaxed compared to some other approaches I've use. And that's in my experience, in yours? YMMV.

*********

I've had some extract beers that were excellent. I've had quite a few that were....apparent as extract brews, with twang. Hard to tell sometimes if it's the extract that's the issue, or bad water. Or something else. I've even thought about doing an extract brew, just because. Could be interesting. Certainly would be faster.

If there's a place all-grain shines over extract it's in the ability to do certain things in recipes. That can be dealt with to some degree with steeping grains in an extract brew, but it's harder to do original recipes targeting specific things if one can't specify and crush one's own grain. Of course, you could order it at the LHBS and have them crush, too.

Hmmm.....doing an extract brew. That's an interesting idea. Sort of a retro, return-to-my-roots thing.

 

[ProblemChild]

For me - started all grain. Never had a problem. 3-tier system with igloo coolers. plastic bucket fermenter and borrowed turkey fryer and kettle.

Did an IPA.

Looked on-line at recipes. Pretty easy. While debatable, can't go too wrong with 95% two-row, 5% crystal, preferably less than 60L.

Tons of online calculators for extraction and hop additions. Almost too easy. Basic format of add something at 60 min, add more near the end of the boil. Dry hop with more hops.

Dry yeast for new guy. did not want to worry about that. Went liquid later, but still believe dry yeast is just as good in many cases.

Set up day before and did dry run with just water. Took notes on the things that you can only learn by experience (make sure the bloody valves are closed when adding water to vessels for example). Learned how to behave with large a container of hot liquid in my hands.

Took my time and had a game plan. There were a few little bumps along the way like a bad seal on plastic fermenting bucket - so no airlock activity- but a few turns of weatherstripping tape around the lid remedied that.

Otherwise, it is easy for all grain, just depends on whether or not you are an "all in" kind of person or if you like to ease your way in. I know I wanted to do this and would keep on doing this, so I just started brewing. Never slowed down from that day

 

[VTX1300]

For me - started all grain. Never had a problem. 3-tier system with igloo coolers. plastic bucket fermenter and borrowed turkey fryer and kettle.

Did an IPA.

Looked on-line at recipes. Pretty easy. While debatable, can't go too wrong with 95% two-row, 5% crystal, preferably less than 60L.

Tons of online calculators for extraction and hop additions. Almost too easy. Basic format of add something at 60 min, add more near the end of the boil. Dry hop with more hops.

Dry yeast for new guy. did not want to worry about that. Went liquid later, but still believe dry yeast is just as good in many cases.

Set up day before and did dry run with just water. Took notes on the things that you can only learn by experience (make sure the bloody valves are closed when adding water to vessels for example). Learned how to behave with large a container of hot liquid in my hands.

Took my time and had a game plan. There were a few little bumps along the way like a bad seal on plastic fermenting bucket - so no airlock activity- but a few turns of weatherstripping tape around the lid remedied that.

Otherwise, it is easy for all grain, just depends on whether or not you are an "all in" kind of person or if you like to ease your way in. I know I wanted to do this and would keep on doing this, so I just started brewing. Never slowed down from that day

sounds a lot like how I did it. All in from the start. Just have to be willing to do the research and prepare before the first brew day.