Beginner Question about Saison Yeasts

[woozy]

This is a *beginners* question. I considered posting it in the Beginner's Forum but decided it *was* about ingredients.

So tell me about Belgian and other Saison yeast strains.

I don't *think* I like Belgian Beers all that much. Well, that may be an over-statement, but I think I find them a little too sweet and cloying. Maybe. My last few taste tests might have been I might have been pre-anticipating my biases.

However temp control is kind of a pain (not a *huge* pain but enough of a pain that a high temp fermenting yeast sounds *quite* attractive) and I understand Saisson a high temp fermenting yeast.

But is it its high fermentation temperatures that make Belgian beers the almost sweet almost cloying beers that I almost don't like? (And then again I haven't tasted very many Saisons per se so much as a *few* Belgian beers [**hate** stella artois, dislike New Belgiam Trippel, Leffe Blonde is okay but starts too sweet but I think I'm being too judgemental, haven't had New Belgian Fat Tire lately but remember it as being perfectly good, Vieille Provision Saison Dupont was pretty good but ridiculously expensive-- had a funny "wild yeast" taste that I didn't actively dislike but didn't really like all that much. I drank plenty of imported beers of all types in my earlier days and I don't remember particularly disliking belgians but then I wasn't attempting developing a vocabulary of styles back then].)

So... tell me about Saison yeasts. Do they always make sweet beers? If I make other styles but use Saison yeasts what will they be like?

And any suggestions on belgian beers would be welcome as well.

I'm sorry for not *knowing* very much and the vagueness of the question but I hope it's clear enough. What are saisons and beers made with saison yeast like to a person who likes all types of beers but whose favorites seem to be pale ales and english ales? (Is that a fair question?)

 

[DonRikkles]

I just made a saison with Wyeast 3711 that is anything but sweet. It's a dry and crisp beer, one of my best I think. I mashed low at 149 and pitched the yeast low, and let it ramp up to about 82 over the course of a week. If you want to make a saison (or any belgian) and avoid sweetness, mash low and pick a highly attenuative yeast. Also, avoid large percentages of crystal or other carmel-ly specialty malts. Don't go more than 5-7%. Good Luck!

 

[woozy]

I just made a saison with Wyeast 3711 that is anything but sweet. It's a dry and crisp beer, one of my best I think. I mashed low at 149 and pitched the yeast low, and let it ramp up to about 82 over the course of a week. If you want to make a saison (or any belgian) and avoid sweetness, mash low and pick a highly attenuative yeast. Also, avoid large percentages of crystal or other carmel-ly specialty malts. Don't go more than 5-7%. Good Luck!

Thanks

Do you recommend any commercial Saisons I can try to see if I like them?

 

[DonRikkles]

Brooklyn Sorachi Ace is stellar. If you're on the East Coast near Baltimore, Brewer's Art has a few Saisons that are also delicious. I've had Boulevard's Tank 7 saison as well and liked it very much. I do not like Starr Hill's saison, the phenol flavor is way too prominent.

 

[woozy]

If you're on the East Coast near Baltimore, ...

I spent the first 3 1/2 hours of my life in baltimore and then once 18 years later I spent another 3 1/2 hours of my life in baltimore and those 7 hours are the entirety of my life's experience in baltimore.

 

[chickypad]

Many saisons are actually quite dry, as are some of the other styles like blondes and tripels. I wonder if some of what you are perceiving as sweet are really flavors from the Belgian yeast. Many do have that fruitiness up front. I think of cloying sweetness as being in the finish, and the opposite of dry. I certainly would not call Saison Dupont sweet. I think that would be considered the classic example of a saison. I like Ommegang Hennepin quite a bit and it seems to be getting easier to find even out here on the left coast.

 

[woozy]

The saisson dupont was *not* sweet. It was very different than either the New Belgian Tripel (cloying) or Stella Artois (hate the stuff) or the Leffe Blond (which I'm giving a bad rep to because if its associates). But it, the saison dupont, was very different from my usual APA, IPAs, ambers, and Lagers and, ya know, Amurikan beers... I *liked* the dryness and crisp and boldness. The most noticible aspect was a semi "sour" taste which reminded my of the tanic sour wild yeast that grows on the skin of ginger root. (I've experimented with ginger ales.) I've heard of sour beers but have never had one and don't think saisson dupont is supposed to be one. (Is it?) It was a taste I didn't like in my ginger ale (my biggest brewing failure was an attempt to make a hard ginger ale with this wild yeast, partly lacto, the result of which was just about all sugar was converted and what was left was a sour beyond all drinkability tanic ... stuff) but which in the Saisson Dupont... I didn't dislike it much but I thought it was ... odd. But I can imagine it becoming an acquired taste that I could develop. I'd buy the Saison Dupont again if it weren't nearly 4 bucks (!!) for a 12 oz. bottle.

I guess I could try to brew a saison. The worst that'll happen is I'd end up with a good beer that isn't in a style I'm fond of.

I'm a bit worried because I hear they can stick in the 1.035 range. Dry and crisp I like. Sweet... really not.

So, newbie only-had-one-saison-ever question: saisons aren't really at all like Stella Artois, are they? (You know, cause they're both belgian and if I had one single bad experience with one belgian beer then all belgians gotta suck 'cause making broad sweeping prejudicial generalizations is what we wierdos on the internet do best...)

 

[BGBC]

Stella is a lager, not a saison, so that's the first problem.

Saisons should not be sweet. Some people may like sweetness in the style, but I think most traditional examples are very dry. I agree about the HB approach - mash low and let it rise up. 3711 (french saison) is a good beginner's saison yeast. It is a beast and will ferment anything, at a wide temperature range.

If you are interested is trying a funky example, try Boulevard Tank 7 (non-funky) and their Saison-Brett (funky saison). Try both together and you'll definitely see the difference.

 

[lumpher]

This is a *beginners* question. I considered posting it in the Beginner's Forum but decided it *was* about ingredients.

So tell me about Belgian and other Saison yeast strains.

I don't *think* I like Belgian Beers all that much. Well, that may be an over-statement, but I think I find them a little too sweet and cloying. Maybe. My last few taste tests might have been I might have been pre-anticipating my biases.

However temp control is kind of a pain (not a *huge* pain but enough of a pain that a high temp fermenting yeast sounds *quite* attractive) and I understand Saisson a high temp fermenting yeast.

But is it its high fermentation temperatures that make Belgian beers the almost sweet almost cloying beers that I almost don't like? (And then again I haven't tasted very many Saisons per se so much as a *few* Belgian beers [**hate** stella artois, dislike New Belgiam Trippel, Leffe Blonde is okay but starts too sweet but I think I'm being too judgemental, haven't had New Belgian Fat Tire lately but remember it as being perfectly good, Vieille Provision Saison Dupont was pretty good but ridiculously expensive-- had a funny "wild yeast" taste that I didn't actively dislike but didn't really like all that much. I drank plenty of imported beers of all types in my earlier days and I don't remember particularly disliking belgians but then I wasn't attempting developing a vocabulary of styles back then].)

So... tell me about Saison yeasts. Do they always make sweet beers? If I make other styles but use Saison yeasts what will they be like?

And any suggestions on belgian beers would be welcome as well.

I'm sorry for not *knowing* very much and the vagueness of the question but I hope it's clear enough. What are saisons and beers made with saison yeast like to a person who likes all types of beers but whose favorites seem to be pale ales and english ales? (Is that a fair question?)

saison yeasts take most recipes down to a dry crisp beer. if they don't come out like that they aren't belgian saison. there is a really good book by stan hieronymous called "brew like a monk". if you read that, you'll realize that there are a ton of belgian styles that aren't sweet and cloying. most of them shoot for dry and crisp. saisons, trippels, pale ales, etc

 

[chickypad]

there is a really good book by stan hieronymous called "brew like a monk"

+1

I tried New Belgium's tripel once and didn't care for it either. Try Allagash tripel reserve instead, or Tripel Karmeliet although that will probably be pricey too. I second the recommendation of 3711, it is a beast. The concerns about stuck fermentation are primarily with 3724.

 

[woozy]

Well, my issue is:

1. Temp control's a pain. Somewhat.
2. Saisons don't really require much temp contol. Much.
3. I don't know Saisons from a hole in a ground other than
4. Saisons are Belgian
5. Stella Artois is Belgian and I hate Stella Artois

So what have I learned?

1. Saisons are dry and crisp and thus not in the least like Stella Artois.
(What a shock! Two things can develop within 200 miles of each other and not be absolutely identical!)
2. I can like dry and crisp. (Fugi Apples, champagnes, sharp cheddar and wendsleydale cheeses, all dry and crisps and among many of my favorite things.)
3. Pale ales and and American ambers and my usual "fall-backs" aren't in the least bit dry or crisp but they are "fall-backs" and not at all the only things I can drink.

So, saisons will be something new. Certainly worth exploring. But they will be different and new. But worth exploring. On the shopping list for tomorrow.

Meanwhile I had another Leffe Blond with dinner (just found out they are owned by Anhuesser-Busch, dammit that just aint right) and I have been maligning it. It is neither sweet nor cloying. I do, however, dislike the coriander flavor (is it coriander, isn't it? It is doesn't say on the bottle). I *intensely* dislike the coriander flavor. But that's neither here nor there...

Anyway, lest I forget to say it, I do appreciate the comments and advice. Thank you.

 

[chickypad]

Stella Artois is a lager as was mentioned, produced by Inbev by the way. Expecting all Belgians to taste that way is like expecting all American craft brews to taste like Budweiser.

 

[woozy]

Stella Artois is a lager as was mentioned, produced by Inbev by the way. Expecting all Belgians to taste that way is like expecting all American craft brews to taste like Budweiser.

Yes. It is. I had found Stella Artois to be sweet. And then New Belgian Trippel (an american beer... but "belgian" in style [whatever that meant]) to be startling and dissapointingly sweet, and then Leffe blond ... well, not sweet but thick... and reading about saisons and the yeast sicking and 1.035 and I began to get ... well, apprehensive. I didn't want to make broad generalizations ("belgian sweet; woozy no like") but I also didn't want to go out on a limb for something that that had been proving narrow returns.

I'm very glad to be proven wrong in this case.

InBev is the european arm as Anhuesser-Busch. Very depressing.

Actually before Budweisser ate the world and I was lad and we played LPs to Mastadons, there were a slew of American Lagers that was the standard "American Beer" and although I really didn't really like them at the time, by comparison to what they have be eaten and become they seem downright delictable in retrospect.

 

[chickypad]

InBev is the european arm as Anhuesser-Busch. Very depressing.

Actually the merged company is based in Belgium. Technically they bought out Anheuser-Busch a few yrs ago and renamed as Anheuser-Busch InBev.

If you're going to try your hand at a saison and want a proven recipe that's quite popular on here see usurper's How Rye I Am in the database. It's a great beer.

 

[woozy]

Actually the merged company is based in Belgium. Technically they bought out Anheuser-Busch a few yrs ago and renamed as Anheuser-Busch InBev.

Oh, not the other way around? Okay, good to have that cleared up.

If you're going to try your hand at a saison and want a proven recipe that's quite popular on here see usurper's How Rye I Am in the database. It's a great beer.

It's a few batches down the line but maybe. Thanks.

I just found out that lager yeasts are not merely different strains of yeasts than ale yeasts they are a completely different type of yeast altogether. How about Saison yeasts? Are they a third type? A hybrid with other beasties? Or are they strains of ale yeast?

 

[dyqik]

The Danstar Belle Saison page lists that yeast as a Saccharomyces cerevisiae, so it is an ale yeast strain.

According the fount of all knowledge, lager yeasts are now classified as a sub species of cerevisiae. However Brett. yeasts are a different genus as well as being a different species.

Anyway, I too brewed my first saison this weekend (a trivially simple SMaTH* with Belgian Pils, Cascade bittering and Saaz aroma hops) using 3711 to try and get an idea on the flavors it produces. Mines bubbling along happily under a nice krausen at 75F at the moment.

*I've decided that this is the term for a Single Malt and Two Hops recipe. Even though it makes it sound like you've lost a few teeth.

 

[woozy]

If you are interested is trying a funky example, try Boulevard Tank 7 (non-funky) and their Saison-Brett (funky saison).

Brett, I take it, is that "sour" culture that makes sour beers? So are saissons sometimes sour? Is the Saison Dupond sour? It had a funny "sour" (well, I wouldn't call it sour but I don't know how better to describe it; not astringent exactly sort of... tart but without any connotations of sweetness. Kind of like having the wind knock out of you by... well, something sour, but not like lemon-sour; no acidity) taste. Was that Brett?

 

[woozy]

Wow. Saisons are expensive at my store. Got an Almanac Honey Saison. It was pretty good. It had a "funny" taste that was similar to the Saison Dupont. I'm assuming that this is what a Saison tastes like and is the defining taste of a Saison. It's a little weird to uninitiated but I can definitely see it being an acquired taste I get into.

So I think i will brew a batch. I don't think it will ever be my favorite style of beer but I can easily see it being one I like coming back too.