Beersmith and step mashing

[ba-brewer]

I have been playing around with beersmith to build a recipe which uses a step mashing profile. It seems as soon as I add a step in the alpha temp range it knocks the ABV down and increases the final gravity even it the step is ridiculously short like 1min. In fact you can put a single step of 1min at 145 and it will predict a full conversion. Seems like everything is based on temperature and not time.

Am I doing something wrong or is this the way the program works?

I want to model a Hochkurz type mash with a rest at ~145F and second rest at ~160F and possible a mashout. Any help on determining the appropriate percentage of time in each rest or conversion to affect body would be appreciated.

 

[Oginme]

BeerSmith does a poor job at step mashes within the optimum fermentability range. Looking around, I have not found a good model for predicting wort fermentability with step mashing, so I am pretty sure Brad hasn't written one into the model he uses for the program.

I have not done much in step mashing, but I would recommend looking at http://braukaiser.com/blog/brewing-science/ for information on step mashing methods.

 

[ba-brewer]

Thanks Oginme. I have done some reading on the braukaiser but it looks like I will have to dig some more and just experiment a bit.

 

[cactusgarrett]

I know some around here don't hold Brulosophy in too high regards, but take this for what it's worth regarding single-step infusion versus Hochkurz:

http://brulosophy.com/2017/08/14/the-mash-single-infusion-vs-hochkurz-step-mash-exbeeriment-results/

 

[ba-brewer]

I know some around here don't hold Brulosophy in too high regards, but take this for what it's worth regarding single-step infusion versus Hochkurz:

http://brulosophy.com/2017/08/14/the-mash-single-infusion-vs-hochkurz-step-mash-exbeeriment-results/

Thanks for the link. I am in the opened minded camp as far as brulosophy is concerned. I have seen some bashing lately and not sure what that is all about, to each their own.

I normally do single infusion but it seems no matter what temp I use in the 148 to 154F range the beers all finish at about the same gravity. I upgraded my cooler to a SS kettle and RIMS and want to see if I can get better control of the final gravity and resulting body by doing a step mash.

I just kegged my first step mash beer and the starting gravity predicted in beersmith was pretty close, but the final gravity was predicted too high 1015 vs 1012 actual. Not to bad but that is about half a percent of alcohol.

I have come to the conclusion I cant use beersmith for predicting final gravity for a step mash and need to do some trial error. If I can't come up with a way to get predictable results I will most like go back to single infusion mashing for simplicity sake. Also beersmith does a good job for predicting gravities for single infusion mashes in my system.

 

[Brewsncrabs]

Head over to BeerSmith.com and post there. I bet one of those gurus can help you out. Brad may even chime in.

 

[ba-brewer]

@Brewsncrabs, Thanks for the tip .

I did a quick search on the beersmith site and found a thread with a comment from a person with same name as Oginme discussing the exact same problem.

Looks like a known issue, but I will do some more digging to see if there is an official beessmith response to the issue.

 

[Oginme]

@Brewsncrabs, Thanks for the tip .

I did a quick search on the beersmith site and found a thread with a comment from a person with same name as Oginme discussing the exact same problem.

Looks like a known issue, but I will do some more digging to see if there is an official beessmith response to the issue.

Not only same name, but same person...

I have not yet seen a response from Brad. I suspect that since Brad incorporate models for all aspects into BeerSmith and there are not many published which explore all the aspects of the effects of step mashing within prime fermentability zone for alpha and beta amylase that he will not be soon trying to build that into his modelling.

Just off the top of my head for the affects, one would need to factor in (1) water to grain ratio, (2) temperature steps utilized, (3) time at each of those steps, (4) crush of the grain (extraction rate of starches to make them available to the enzymes, (5) pH of the wort, and (6) enzyme denaturing rates into the model. Not trivial.

 

[ba-brewer]

@Oginme, I figured it was the same person.

There is a post in the suggestion area from earlier in 2017 for a step mash improvement but no response from beersmith there either.

I am sure it is not an easy formula to accurately predict the effects so that is why it is the way it is. All prefab step mash profile only have one step in the Saccharification region.

I plan to just use single infusion profiles for designing, then play with the mash times and progress of conversion(gravity) outside of beersmith to see if I can control the final gravity and body.

 

[Oginme]

The couple of times that I did step mashing, I've just ignored the estimated FG. The goal is to make the wort more fermentable, so I am usually aiming for less than the estimated target BeerSmith predicts. Filling out the actual numbers after the brewing and fermentation gives me a calculated ABV based on the measurements.

 

[ba-brewer]

I want to get some extra body in some of my lower gravity English ales and my APAs. I am betting on it is my mashing and not that I just have over achiever yeast.

 

[TLaffey]

I normally do single infusion but it seems no matter what temp I use in the 148 to 154F range the beers all finish at about the same gravity. I upgraded my cooler to a SS kettle and RIMS and want to see if I can get better control of the final gravity and resulting body by doing a step mash.

I've found pretty much the same thing. So far my investigation has led me to the conclusion that "over-modified" malt is part of my lack of "controllability." The pale malt I generally use has a diastatic power of 130+ and Soluble to Total Protein (Kolbach Index) [https://beerandbrewing.com/dictionary/3AeJym3rJq/kolbach-index/] of 45+. It converts completely and quickly with much less variation over temperature than I expected. I suspect that a Pilsener malt with a lower Kolbach index will behave more like I expect.

With my current malt I have had differences that I would call improvement by using the Hochkurz step mash (I'm infusing, not using decoction). Dough in below gelatinzation temp seems to be an important part of this, so I don't recommend mashing in at, say, 145*F. I'm using 15 min at 125-133 to get things started. Related to this, I found this paper interesting, but not conclusive: http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/wp-...ASPECTS-OF-INFUSION-AND-DECOCTION-MASHING.pdf.

Brew on and have fun!

 

[ba-brewer]

I've found pretty much the same thing. So far my investigation has led me to the conclusion that "over-modified" malt is part of my lack of "controllability." The pale malt I generally use has a diastatic power of 130+ and Soluble to Total Protein (Kolbach Index) [https://beerandbrewing.com/dictionary/3AeJym3rJq/kolbach-index/] of 45+. It converts completely and quickly with much less variation over temperature than I expected. I suspect that a Pilsener malt with a lower Kolbach index will behave more like I expect.

With my current malt I have had differences that I would call improvement by using the Hochkurz step mash (I'm infusing, not using decoction). Dough in below gelatinzation temp seems to be an important part of this, so I don't recommend mashing in at, say, 145*F. I'm using 15 min at 125-133 to get things started. Related to this, I found this paper interesting, but not conclusive: http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/wp-...ASPECTS-OF-INFUSION-AND-DECOCTION-MASHING.pdf.

Brew on and have fun!

Thanks for the links(first one gave me an error though).

What was your goal for your step mashes, more body, less body something else?

I believe the weyermann floor malted bohemian pilsner malt is slightly under modified, but do you know about others?

I had seen the warning about doing a protein rest on well modified malt being bad but with some of the things I have seen recently it seem like a short protein rest should be OK.

 

[TLaffey]

Thanks for the links(first one gave me an error though).

What was your goal for your step mashes, more body, less body something else?

I believe the weyermann floor malted bohemian pilsner malt is slightly under modified, but do you know about others?

I had seen the warning about doing a protein rest on well modified malt being bad but with some of the things I have seen recently it seem like a short protein rest should be OK.

I started step mashing after I started brewing with rye--major sticking, even with rice hulls. For my rye IPAs I now start with a glucans rest and step up from there. Since I had previously tried a high temp (158*F) single infusion mash and had little to show for it, step mashing seemed an interesting new avenue for exploration in controlling body. I use some form of infusion step mash each brew these days.

There is a lot of opinion on what a protein rest will do to head retention. For me, head retention is less important than flavor and stability. Here are some more step mashing articles includes a lot of pro/con discussion I found of interest:

https://byo.com/stories/issue/itemlist/category/131-jan-feb-2008

I found some very old (2005) posts on http://hbd.org/hbd/archive/4750.html by "stevea" (Steve Alexander) on "Enzyme confusion and step mashing" that I also found of interest.

I am currently mashing in at 133*F for 30 minutes for an all or nearly all barley grist and get "good" head retention. I've also noticed what I think is a noticeable improvement with hot break and wort pH in the BK, which is another part of why I continue with this.

I haven't yet compared pilsner malts. On my next brew day I will bring in pilsner as the main part of my grist.

Cheers.

 

[ba-brewer]

@TLaffey thanks for the links and info.

I have now done 4 different step mashes with varying amount of time in the 145% range, the last one I added a 20min protein rest. They have all been different kinds of beers and different yeasts so not sure what to expect.