beer sort-of for sale. Is this legal?

[HausBrauerei_Harvey]

So an acquaintance i'm becoming better friends with has asked me to make 10 gallons of beer for his backyard concert this summer. He has offered to pay for the ingredients and trade time with me to help me with some construction projects, i'd love to do this for him.

Here's the catch: he's going to charge $5 a head to try and recoup some cost of the band ($500 i'm told) and he plans to 'give away' one ticket for beer with each entrant ticket. I'm told beer will not be sold, only one beer given away with each entry ticket.

I'm a bit concerned about the legality of this? anyone want to chime in here? I thinking I could just say I give him the beer, then he's free to do what he pleases with it and this absolves me as the beer producer from any legal responsibility.

Thoughts? Opinions? Should I make the deal and the beer? I'd like too but obviously don't want to be responsible for any illegal beer sales.

 

[Pappers_]

His offering to help you with some projects isn't a problem, if he weren't selling the beer, which he is (his plan seems way too transparent to me). Most states regulate this, and in Illinois at least, if the authorities wanted to come after him he would be in trouble here. Would the homebrewer who gave him the beer to sell be in trouble, too? I would guess yes, but that's just a guess.

If its a smallish gathering, here it would be unlikely that the authorities would get involved.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

If its a smallish gathering, here it would be unlikely that the authorities would get involved.

Backyard concert, and alcohol?

I'll take the over on the chance the police show up.

 

[HausBrauerei_Harvey]

what if I make him agree to say to anyone of authority if i came up that HE made the beer for his party?

his honest intentions are not to make money on the beer, he just doesn't want to pay $500 out of pocket for the band. Since I just booked a band for my annual party and agreed to pay them $400, I'm thinking if you want a band and a kick-ass party, you shouldn't ask your friends and neighbors to pay for entry, however small $5 a head is. i'm inclined to just suggest to him that if he insists on charging entry, I don't think I should be involved.

 

[kristiismean]

I am not a lawyer, and reading this thread makes it seem like a good idea to engage one, because before hand is a lot better than after.

In my opinion, which has no legal standing, and I would not listen to it:

private property, you are basically giving away your beer for free, the tickets are a nice way to limit it to 1 per person. = I think legal

However, if distribution alcohol to paying public, certain licenses are needed. at least here in IL. I can go to the village, pay 25 dollars and distribute all the beer and wine I want to. It's required for free or paid or donations... and since he is giving the tickets, here he'd need a license. ask your village.

and don't ask him to say it's his, go legit or don't do it, not worth the hassle.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

"a license? Isn't it on de' boomper?"

 

[mongoose33]

what if I make him agree to say to anyone of authority if i came up that HE made the beer for his party?

his honest intentions are not to make money on the beer, he just doesn't want to pay $500 out of pocket for the band. Since I just booked a band for my annual party and agreed to pay them $400, I'm thinking if you want a band and a kick-ass party, you shouldn't ask your friends and neighbors to pay for entry, however small $5 a head is. i'm inclined to just suggest to him that if he insists on charging entry, I don't think I should be involved.

So you'd depend on his ability to lie effectively? What happens when everyone wants to know where the beer is from? Can he explain what it is, how it was made, etc?

Somebody on the way home decides to drive, hits a kid on a bike, and part of the investigation is where the beer was from. Are you sure you want to be involved with that?

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

Backyard concert, and alcohol?

I'll take the over on the chance the police show up.

Yep. Me too.

Selling tickets to your own backyard concert? This is not going to end well.

Generally when people bring up these threads about selling homebrew my own opinion is "just don't tell anyone and you have nothing to worry about", but this sounds like the sort of event that is going to attract very unwanted attention from the authorities. Best to just avoid this entirely.

 

[HausBrauerei_Harvey]

So you'd depend on his ability to lie effectively? What happens when everyone wants to know where the beer is from? Can he explain what it is, how it was made, etc?

Somebody on the way home decides to drive, hits a kid on a bike, and part of the investigation is where the beer was from. Are you sure you want to be involved with that?

No, is the answer! I don't want to be a part of that!

However where do I draw the line? my annual party of friends of neighbors has like 80+ people and I serve 30 gallons of beer, and have not had issues with anyone trying to leave who shouldn't be driving.

So the issue here is i dont know what kind of crowd he will be attracting, and that he's charging. I think if he didn't charge i'd still be happy to make the beer, same as I do for my own party. Should I not serve my own beer my annual BBQ as well? Where is the line here with this line of thought?

 

[bucketnative]

However, if distribution alcohol to paying public, certain licenses are needed. at least here in IL. I can go to the village, pay 25 dollars and distribute all the beer and wine I want to. It's required for free or paid or donations... and since he is giving the tickets, here he'd need a license. ask your village.

https://www.illinois.gov/ilcc/SiteCollectionDocuments/Special Event Retailer.pdf

Yes, but you would also have to prove your status as an "educational, fraternal, political, civic, religious or not-for-profit organization." And, you need to obtain "Dram Shop Insurance" for the event, which protects against alcohol related lawsuits.

It seems like John Q. Public can't just waltz in and get a license in IL.

However, the application does state that "PRIVATE PARTY
is an event where attendance is by invitation only, the host controls access to the premises, and alcoholic beverages
are provided to invited guests at no charge. A Special Event Liquor License is not required for a private party."

Maybe in your state you can just take a collection for the band and hand out beer free of charge. You could probably still be held liable for any alcohol related incidents, and may want to get insurance for such.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

The line is drawn when money exchanges hands for participation.

That said, bartenders have been sued for "over serving".

 

[Stillraining]

Where is the line here with this line of thought?

Heard this one:
"What do you call a Lawyer at the bottom of the ocean?......................................a good start"

And here in lies the problem with either scenario you have asked about...If someone wants to sue you, there are lots of lawyers wiling to do so no mater how fine a line you may be connected with or how Innocent the motives with the incident.
I might do it if it was out in the sticks but not in town or the suburbs. If it was a gathering of 15 or 20 personal friends then total different thing, and then Id do it no mater where it was at.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Heard this one:
"What do you call a Layer at the bottom of the ocean?......................................a good start"

Well, I'd call it a layer on the bottom of the ocean.

 

[Stillraining]

Fixed it but not before you busted me. But a layer of Lawyers down there sounds nice.

 

[JonM]

Well, I sure wouldn't do it.

Around here, SOMEone has to have a license if alcohol is being sold (or "given away" to people who make a donation), and the person with the license can't be selling from an unlicensed (and untaxed) brewery which might get you in the stuff too.

Check with a lawyer in your state.

ETA: I see your town is kinda like mine in that there's a little bit of brewing going on. I bet there are plenty of qualified fermented beverage lawyers around.

 

[mongoose33]

No, is the answer! I don't want to be a part of that!

However where do I draw the line? my annual party of friends of neighbors has like 80+ people and I serve 30 gallons of beer, and have not had issues with anyone trying to leave who shouldn't be driving.

You're not charging for it.

So the issue here is i dont know what kind of crowd he will be attracting, and that he's charging. I think if he didn't charge i'd still be happy to make the beer, same as I do for my own party. Should I not serve my own beer my annual BBQ as well? Where is the line here with this line of thought?

If he's taking a donation, and each donation gets you a beer, then he's charging for it. At that point, you're an unlicensed brewery providing beer to an unlicensed beer establishment.

If it were me, I...would...not...go...there.

 

[Homercidal]

What they said. I don't care how to try to describe not selling beer, he would be selling beer. In the eyes of the ATF, it looks like you are trying to get around the fact you are charging to serve homebrew (And not very creatively either.) There is a very short line from "Charging for the band" and "Charging for the beer" to them.

The police aren't going to care too much where the beer came from. The Feds are for that. The police mostly care about noise, damage, disturbance, and DD. What the cops are worried about is what I'd be most worried about. There may be enough distance between you and your friend to prove you gave him the beer out of friendship, and he decided to serve it at a party that only charging to recoup the cost of the band. Keep in mind that anyone who is going to care about that is not going to view it in that way. The odds of anyone actually caring is very slim, but it's the truth of the matter.

 

[satph]

Here's the Illinois law.

6.36(d): No admission fee and no charge for the consumption of a person's homemade brewed beverage may be collected if the public exhibition, demonstration, tasting, or sampling with sampling sizes as authorized by Section 6-31 is held at a private residence.

The way I read that is if he charges admission at his house, you can't give away beer. If you read the read the rest of the section, if he had the concert at an unlicensed location what wasn't a residence, he could charge admission and you could legally give away three 2 ounce samples.

 

[JonM]

OP is in Golden, CO.

 

[HausBrauerei_Harvey]

You're not charging for it.




If he's taking a donation, and each donation gets you a beer, then he's charging for it. At that point, you're an unlicensed brewery providing beer to an unlicensed beer establishment.

If it were me, I...would...not...go...there.

Thanks mongoose you have convinced me. If he chooses to charge entry for his concert, I will not provide the beer. however I like the guy and would like the trade of time on some of my projects, so if he decides to drop the admission fee at that point its a private invitation only party and i'd be happy to provide him with the beer.

Actually I sent this question to the AHA yesterday, who should also be familiar with Colorado law, I'll post what they say if I get a response.

Cheers guys thanks for helping me bang this around a bit and reach a conclusion.

 

[Brewenstein]

I probably wouldn't do it. Why tempt fate? But just a thought - OP's friend has a party with a band. He asks $5 from each person to help pay for the band. He says "It's a BYOB party". His BYOB just happens to be the 10 gallons of homebrew from his friend (the OP). No tickets given for the $5, but he might share some of his BYOB if his friends ask. Seems legit to me.

I share my home brew all the time. Even have family parties where people pitch in for the food costs. Can't see how giving / sharing my beer with anyone would constitute as selling it, even if I did ask for money to help cover the food.

 

[satph]

OP is in Golden, CO.

Thanks, I'll try again. Not legal according to Coloarado law either.

(19) "Malt liquors" includes beer
(2) (a) ... a head of a family may produce for family use and not for sale such amount of fermented malt beverage or malt or vinous liquor as is exempt from the federal excise tax on such alcohol beverage when produced by a head of a family for family use and not for sale.
(2) (d) Malt liquors produced pursuant to this subsection (2) may be transported and delivered by the producer to any licensed premise where consumption of malt liquors by persons over the age of twenty-one is authorized for use at organized affairs, exhibitions, or competitions, such as home brew contests, tastings, or judgings. Consumption shall be limited solely to the participants in and judges of such events. Malt liquors used for the purposes described in this paragraph (d) shall be served in portions not exceeding six ounces and shall not be sold, offered for sale, or made available for consumption by the general public.

 

[Soulshine2]

how good of a friend is he to you? I'd have to decline . Too risky , too much could go wrong....ONE thing goes wrong , one or both of you go to jail .
Village would want to issue a beer license and possibly a license for the entertainment ,fire codes, age requirements for alcohol,noise curfew ...see where I'm going?.
Cops show up and take your beer.
I wouldn't do it. Thats just me.
BYOB (card at the door) and a $5 cover charge for the band...maybe.

 

[flars]

Thanks mongoose you have convinced me. If he chooses to charge entry for his concert, I will not provide the beer. however I like the guy and would like the trade of time on some of my projects, so if he decides to drop the admission fee at that point its a private invitation only party and i'd be happy to provide him with the beer.

Actually I sent this question to the AHA yesterday, who should also be familiar with Colorado law, I'll post what they say if I get a response.

Cheers guys thanks for helping me bang this around a bit and reach a conclusion.

Colorado's latest bulletin on home brew November 13, 2015 from the Colorado
Department of Revenue on serving your home brew to others.


https://www.colorado.gov/pacific/sites/default/files/LED BULLETIN 15-04 Home Brew.pdf


It seems with money being charged at the event serving your home brew most likely would put you in jeopardy even if the money was to cover the band. Proving the money collected was to cover the band and not for the sale of the beer would be impossible. There would also need to be some means of keeping the party private.

 

[NickTheGreat]

Will be curious to follow this thread. Sounds like the OP has the right approach to decline if money is being charged.

 

[JonM]

But as satph pointed out above, you can't serve homebrew to others away from your residence unless it's at a licensed premises and only for HB competitions, etc.

 

[HausBrauerei_Harvey]

But as satph pointed out above, you can't serve homebrew to others away from your residence unless it's at a licensed premises and only for HB competitions, etc.

I guess that didn't stick with me the first time, so thanks for repeating it. sounds like I should just stay away from this all-together, unfortunately.

 

[NickTheGreat]

But as satph pointed out above, you can't serve homebrew to others away from your residence unless it's at a licensed premises and only for HB competitions, etc.

I guess I read that differently. I would like to think I could bring a bottle of homebrew to my buddy's house for him to drink.

I suppose it depends how you interpret

organized affairs, exhibitions, or competitions, such as home brew contests, tastings, or judgings. Consumption shall be limited solely to the participants in and judges of such events.

Because I find it disappointing that I couldn't bring a keg of homebrew for people at a barbeque at my parents' house (assuming we were both in CO)

 

[JonM]

Hey, up until maybe a year and a half ago it was illegal in Wisconsin to bring HB to someone else's house. Sure, they weren't going to haul me away for bringing a growler to the in-laws' house, but multiple kegs for a big party with a band is a different animal ...

 

[HausBrauerei_Harvey]

Because I find it disappointing that I couldn't bring a keg of homebrew for people at a barbeque at my parents' house (assuming we were both in CO)

I think if you called the event a 'beer competition' and all the guests attending were 'judges' you'd be fine.

However I would have no problem doing what you describe, the issue here is we live in a town with high population density, and a for-pay backyard concert has a high likelihood of the police getting involved. Thus I should be more careful than just bringing a keg to my friends house where no-one of authority will ever know that I did that.