Beer selling / permits. How difficult?

[BeerAddict]

Hi everyone, first of all I want to introduce my self. I'm a young male, mechanical engineer from Puerto Rico and I love beer. I'm going to write a little of how I got into this forum...


I'm currently working on an aerospace company and its cool and everything but quite frankly, I hate being sitting on an office 8+ hours a day working for another person. I've been two years thinking and analyzing several business ideas with no luck. One day I was thinking "hey I should do something that I really like!". There are two thinks that I really like, beer and women.

I started reading about beer brewing which I had no idea of how it was done.

I've been reading like for a month now and had the main idea of several brewing methods and my question is the following.

Does anyone have experience actually selling their beer? How difficult is to get the permits to sell the beer? My idea is to brew beer and sell kegs to different pubs/bars/restaurants here in PR. There is no microbrewery here doing that at the moment so I think it might be a good business to start here (also puertoricans love alcohol). Any suggestions are welcomed.

Thanks

 

[JJL]

You should probably do a search on here. There is a link somewhere to a commercial brewing FAQ type of a website. The laws vary by state, and I'm sure PR has different laws as well. The short version from what I can surmise is that it takes a lot of work and you need a fair amount of capital to get started. The big thing is that you can't just brew out of your basement and sell kegs to random people.

 

[DrinkinSurfer]

Your first step might be laying off the drug talk. Talking about distilling is a tabooed subject on this site, and that is still alcohol. Even brewing with bread yeast is pretty tabooed. So my suggestion is stop talking about illegal drugs.

 

[BeerAddict]

You should probably do a search on here. There is a link somewhere to a commercial brewing FAQ type of a website. The laws vary by state, and I'm sure PR has different laws as well. The short version from what I can surmise is that it takes a lot of work and you need a fair amount of capital to get started. The big thing is that you can't just brew out of your basement and sell kegs to random people.

Thanks for the input, I'll do a search here.

Your first step might be laying off the drug talk. Talking about distilling is a tabooed subject on this site, and that is still alcohol. Even brewing with bread yeast is pretty tabooed. So my suggestion is stop talking about illegal drugs.

Ok, I edited the text to avoid problems on the forum. Thanks

 

[BigEd]

How difficult is to get the permits to sell the beer?

It's a bit more involved than just getting a permit. If it were easy there would be lots of us doing it. As was mentioned above there are certainly previous threads/posts regarding the topic. For starters you need Federal Government approval including a brewer's license, posting a brewer's bond, a commercial site inspected and approved, etc, etc. Then you will need to duplicate a number of those things at the state and local level. Not impossible, but it will require fairly large amounts of time, money, lawyers and probably more time, money and lawyers. Best wishes and success if you decide to try it.

 

[LaurieGator]

I started reading about beer brewing which I had no idea of how it was done.

I've been reading like for a month now and had the main idea of several brewing methods and my question is the following.

Hi! I am a chemical engineer so I understand about wanting to get out and starting something of your own.

Looking at what you have written, I don't see that you have actually brewed any beer. There are a lot of variables that go into the making of a good beer, just reading about it doesn't mean that a person is able to do it.

First, I would try making a few batches of beer and see what you think. If you like it, then I would take your favorite beer that you have made and duplicate the taste when you make it a second, third and fourth time. It sounds easy to do in theory but it is a totally different animal in practice. When someone purchases a beer, they want each beer to taste the same from beer to beer and from batch to batch. I go into the store/brewpub expecting a certain taste from that beer. If it is drier or sweeter (because the mash temps have changed by a few degrees), I may not buy your product again because it doesn't taste as good as it did before.

I hope you hang around a brew a few batches for you and your friends. Let us know how things turn out from a business angle. I have thought about the brew pub thing myself, but I want to develop 4 -5 of my own recipes first and be able to replicate them regularly before I even think about taking a huge step like a brew pub.

 

[BeerAddict]

Hi! I am a chemical engineer so I understand about wanting to get out and starting something of your own.

Looking at what you have written, I don't see that you have actually brewed any beer. There are a lot of variables that go into the making of a good beer, just reading about it doesn't mean that a person is able to do it.

First, I would try making a few batches of beer and see what you think. If you like it, then I would take your favorite beer that you have made and duplicate the taste when you make it a second, third and fourth time. It sounds easy to do in theory but it is a totally different animal in practice. When someone purchases a beer, they want each beer to taste the same from beer to beer and from batch to batch. I go into the store/brewpub expecting a certain taste from that beer. If it is drier or sweeter (because the mash temps have changed by a few degrees), I may not buy your product again because it doesn't taste as good as it did before.

I hope you hang around a brew a few batches for you and your friends. Let us know how things turn out from a business angle. I have thought about the brew pub thing myself, but I want to develop 4 -5 of my own recipes first and be able to replicate them regularly before I even think about taking a huge step like a brew pub.

Hi LaurieGator, you are right I have never brewed beer. I'm totally new to this. At the moment I'm planing on building a small and simple HERMS system to start brewing and begin getting the experience and start trying different receipts. Even if I don't make it to get this into a business I would like to brew beer at least to bring it to my family's get-together. I guess is never late to learn something new.

I know the business thing would be a really long process but I'm trying to get the most information I can before taking any further steps so I can do everything the correct way from the beginning. At least I have some experience designing stuff and some money saved so that may help a little. I think this forum is great, there is a lot of valuable information and many people willing to help. Thanks everyone for the inputs, I'll be hanging around to let you guys know the results of my first batches.

 

[BeerAddict]

I've been researching on this and the requirements and permits doesn't look impossible to achieve but still need to do a little more research specially at the state level.

As for the business idea, the plan right now is to build a relatively small brewery system (small in investment), that's why I decided it should be something really simple , nothing fancy but with enough capacity. The business plan at the moment is to produce a ~45 gal batch everyday, 5 days a week (that would be the maximum operational capacity, the number of batches will really depend on the demand). That will be enough to produce around 9,500 12oz servings in one month having a total of 20+ fermenters. The beer will be served from kegs on different local pubs, my plan is to look for costumers at regions where tourist hang out like "Viejo San Juan" and "Isla Verde" here in PR.

So here is my first draft of the system:

- Stainless steel 55 gal drum.
- Plastic 55 gal well insulated drum (MLT)
- Plastic 55 gal drum (transfer)
- Plastic 55 gal drum for fermenting
- Pump with flexible hoses for changing configuration
- Wood platform


1. Fill the boiler with water and bring to mash temperature.
2. Start mixing the grains with the warm water at the MLT (using the pump).
3. After the end of the mash, transfer the wort by gravity into the transfer container while doing the sparging (batch or fly sparging) by pumping hot water from the boiler.
4. When the wort volume is achieved at the transfer container, reconfigure pump to move the wort into the boiler.
5. Remove grains from the MLT while the wort boils.
6. After boiling the wort, it will be cooled using a counterflow tube heat exchanger. The cold fluid will be tap water preferably, the desired wort temperature will be controlled with the heat exchanger length.
7. While cooling the wort, use the cold water exiting the heat exchanger to clean all containers.


Now some questions:
* Can I use a electric heat source to maintain the mashing
temperature in case it goes to low? Any recommendations?
* I plan on using plastic containers on everything except
the boiler, what type of plastic should I use or avoid?

Thanks

 

[dfc]

Honestly I think you're getting ahead of yourself. LaurieGator has posted some great advice. I would at least think about following it.

You can have the best business plan in the world, but if your product is not good or consistent no one will purchase your product regardless of your business plan.

 

[Centexbear]

As a new brewer myself, I can appreciate your excitement but I think you need to follow your own advice and start with a small brewery (small investment). And by that I mean get a good 20 gallon SS boiling pot, buy a good starter brewing kit from Austin Homebrew Supply or Midwestern, make your own MLT (I did it and it works really good) based on the DIY forum thread about converting a 10 Gallon Rubbermaid water cooler into a MLT. Being an engineer, you'll probably get a kick out of converting it and DIY.

There is so much to learn just starting off. I first started with extract and did 3 batches before I wanted to take the training wheels off and go big boy all grain. First batch went ok, it's fermenting now, but my efficiency wasn't too good. Second AG brew I was 4 points off target OG so that was a huge improvement.

Spent $500 or less and start practicing. As someone above said, get 4-5 brews down pat that you can produce consistently and then start thinking about your business plan and really expanding at that time. Once you get several brews under your belt, I promise you'll start to think about kegging and that's a whole new thing to research and learn. Just when I think I am beginning to understand the mashing process, I learn about other advanced mashing techniques such as decocation & stepping & protein resting and and and. The learning never stops for a new brewer lol. I've spent hours on this forum reading all kinds of cool stuff.

If you have any in PR, you might try to enter some competitions and win some awards if you can. That would be huge for your product and in securing a loan from a financial institution to launch your business.

Good luck!

 

[Elshauno]

Search locally for home brewing clubs Join one and you can get help to pinpoint and correct flaws in your process once you do start to brew You'll definitely have a few. In the mean time read every book you can find about brewing beer. Check out probrewer.com there you will find more people familiar with the professional side of the business. Read while brewing brew a ton of beer for your friends until you have a firm grasp. Remember 5 gallon batches are cheap in comparison to 45 gallon batches. Good luck!

 

[mattd2]

+1 or 2 or 3(what ever it is up to?) to starting off with a homebrew scale setup - 5 gallons per batch (gives you more brewdays) and nailing down you process and developing a few recipes and getting consistant. Then step up to the challange of a microbrewer (or nanobrewer) statues.
I don't know the ins and outs of PR (is it even got anything to do with US laws?) but the best start is to search for your countries alchohole legislation to see what is required to produce and sell alcohol, The US seems crazy ass confusing to get through all the red tape (with county, state and federal all having their say - and hand out for the appropriote fees). Here in NZ the quick bit of research I have done for getting a liquor licence has lead me to beleive the process involves applying (with all the related forms and fees), then the police and public can object to you proposal, then a dicision is made to grant a licence or not. It also seems you can sell to a distributer, who has a licence, even if you don't have one (don't quote me there!).
I haven't looked at anything dealing with health codes or resource consents though
But thats NZ, every country will be different so check your legilation and don't rely on whats been said that you have to do in the USA.

 

[JVD_X]

Wait... You chose beer over women?

 

[dfc]

Wait... You chose beer over women?

It makes the women look better.

 

[northernlad]

In the year or more you should devote to learning and practicing the art of brewing you can educate yourself on the legalities of opening and producing beer for resale.

 

[BeerAddict]

Thanks everyone for the replies, I do plan on start brewing 5 gal batches to learn, practice and make some recipes. I have order a 5 gallon all grain ingredient kit already and some of the basic stuff I need. I know this is going to be a long process but I want to start doing a good business study with an estimate on everything before I take a step ahead. That is why I'm trying to get an idea on volume production vs. operational cost + initial investment before spending a cent on something bigger than 5 gal so I can see if it will be feasible. In the meanwhile, I'l start doing small batches like everyone is advising me to learn and enjoy the beer.

There is only one micro brewery in PR and they only serve the beer at their restaurant. As for the laws there is a lot of information at this website http://www.ttb.gov/index.shtml. I know the federal laws apply to PR but not the taxes. The taxes are controlled here in the island and more local laws apply but unfortunately they don't have any info at their webpage so I'll have to visit their office to get more info. At least one of the federal laws is that the brewery can not be on an house where someone is living so this adds a new property to the investment. At the moment I don't have any debts, living alone, and with some money saved on my bank account so I think this is the moment to take the risk and try to do something with my live, and stop spending my money on cars and stuff.

 

[Priemus]

Make some more brews. Submit them into competitions, get feedback from Beer judges, tweak, make something awesome THEN consider going micro brewery.

Point of note, very important.

You can't to my knowledge run a microbrewery that sells to the public from and residential space anywhere. So forget about brewing in your back porch or garage.

 

[BeerAddict]

You can't to my knowledge run a microbrewery that sells to the public from and residential space anywhere. So forget about brewing in your back porch or garage.

This is what the federal law says:

§ 25.21 Restrictions on location.

"A brewery may not be established or operated in any dwelling house or on board any vessel or boat, or in any building or on any premises where the revenue will be jeopardized or the effective administration of this part will be hindered."

For dwelling house I understand it is a house where people live, or am I wrong? This means you can buy a small house and do the brewery there as long as no one lives the house and it comply with the local requirements ect? IF this is the case then it will not be too hard to achieve for me specially since the local government is going to give some good incentives to people buying properties in the near future.