Beer Line Length and Pressure Calculator

[TheYoshi]

i just want to say, brian1's formula is more accurate than the spreadsheet, at least for me.

i have a wheat beer on tap. 37F, 20psi for about 3.4 volumes. 3/16" line, 5" shank, 24" height difference.

your spreadsheet gives me 93 inches, about 7.75 feet. I have 10' on there right now, and I have to turn the reg down to 8psi to get a decent pour. pouring at 20psi on 10' gives me nothing but foam. 7.75 feet would be useless.

brian1's formula gives 16 feet, which, while I haven't tried that yet (waiting on beer line...) seems much more reasonable...

I agree, this thing seems to return a bit too short. Really irritating the spreadsheet is protected too. I'll probably get around to making a spreadsheet that biases longer (using the formula here) and post it in a day or two, I won't lock it either that should help if anyone needs to change the assumed resistances of specific line diameters as well.

By way of example, I have an IPA on tap with a picnic faucet right now, 38 degrees, 9 PSI for 2.3 volumes, this thing is calling for 41" of line. I've got 60" on there now, will foam too much still, not horrible but still way too much to be acceptable. About 1/2 the glass is foam.

 

[Bearcat Brewmeister]

I agree, this thing seems to return a bit too short. Really irritating the spreadsheet is protected too. I'll probably get around to making a spreadsheet that biases longer (using the formula here) and post it in a day or two, I won't lock it either that should help if anyone needs to change the assumed resistances of specific line diameters as well.

By way of example, I have an IPA on tap with a picnic faucet right now, 38 degrees, 9 PSI for 2.3 volumes, this thing is calling for 41" of line. I've got 60" on there now, will foam too much still, not horrible but still way too much to be acceptable. About 1/2 the glass is foam.

The spreadsheet was created quite a long time ago and I do not recall the password. If I manage to come up with it, I will go ahead and unlock it. Like I said earlier, no intent on hiding anything here - they are standard engineering formulas - I just have always had a habit of protecting sheets for error proofing purposes. I think the formulas in use are similar to other posts, but with some differences in constants and where they are combined.

Therefore, if I get the sheet unprotected, the recommendation for modifying the spreadsheet would be to change the coefficients assigned to the diameters of beer line (the coefficients relate to material smoothness). These were standards that were pulled off of a fluid mechanics table listing several materials, but even minor differences in the coefficients, which could exist among the different manufacturers of beer line, would cause big differences when you are at the fringes (i.e. very low but more so, very high pressures). I assume that is why this sheet works for most people but a few site some issues with it.

The formula should result in beer that pours at about 2 ounces per second, so that is a good double check for line length. There is no guarantee that this flow rate will result in no foam however, since there are other factors that can contribute to foam such as line temperature, dips in the line (not feeding up for the entire length), force carbonating at higher than serving pressure, etc.

 

[jgourd]

Excel and OpenOffice both allow protecting of sheets without passwords (just leave it blank). That's what I do to prevent accidental erasing of a formula. But unprotection is simply done in case one wants to change something. There's also an option to hide formulas. One would only do that if they wanted to keep others from seeing what was done. Cheap IMHO.

 

[CPooley4]

Kind of sad that people get on a poster for protecting or even hiding formulas. If you don't like what the poster has done for the forum for free on their own time then get off your lazy ass and make your own. Anything else makes you look like a freeloading dink IMO.

 

[jgourd]

Kind of sad that people get on a poster for protecting or even hiding formulas. If you don't like what the poster has done for the forum for free on their own time then get off your lazy ass and make your own. Anything else makes you look like a freeloading dink IMO.

Indeed many of us have and have shared it many times over. And others have come to critique and make corrections. And we all learn something. Isn't it great when we openly share things without silly protections how things get much better much more quickly. Open source all the way!

 

[CPooley4]

So say it that way without the unnecessary bs. He'd either agree and unprotect, offer the explanation above that he doesn't have the password anymore, or do nothing. Either way it's his work that he spent his time on and offered here for free for all to use. Those that don't like it or disagree with him can just make their own on their own time and offer it here for free for all to use. All the information is readily accessible to anyone that wants to take the time to do so.

 

[jgourd]

I agree, this thing seems to return a bit too short. Really irritating the spreadsheet is protected too. I'll probably get around to making a spreadsheet that biases longer (using the formula here) and post it in a day or two, I won't lock it either that should help if anyone needs to change the assumed resistances of specific line diameters as well.

By way of example, I have an IPA on tap with a picnic faucet right now, 38 degrees, 9 PSI for 2.3 volumes, this thing is calling for 41" of line. I've got 60" on there now, will foam too much still, not horrible but still way too much to be acceptable. About 1/2 the glass is foam.

To unprotect spreadsheets and unhide formulas just get OpenOffice (it's free). Open the Excel document, save as OpenOffice document, close, open the OpenOffice version of the document, resave as Excel document. It will complain about the protection. Just check to remove all protections and you're done. You can then close and reopen the newly saved Excel document. The sheets will be unprotected and formulas unhidden.

 

[Caboth]

Bmpvevpxgpvsswp

 

[motobrewer]

There is no guarantee that this flow rate will result in no foam however, since there are other factors that can contribute to foam such as line temperature, dips in the line (not feeding up for the entire length), force carbonating at higher than serving pressure, etc.

have you had success pouring wheat beers carbed and served at 20psi using 7 feet of line?

my setup is pretty standard, my lines are coiled on top of the keg. yes it's probably warmer on top, but maybe a degree or two. i have perlicks and a 5" shank.

 

[Josh1]

Request a little patience for a newby: what is the volume of CO2? Is this the volume of my CO2 tank? If so, aren't compressed gasses typically measured in weight, not volume? Bottom line, it looks like a great tool, I'm just not sure how to use it because I can't figure out what my input should be for CO2 volume. Sorry for the novice questions...

 

[IrregularPulse]

Request a little patience for a newby: what is the volume of CO2? Is this the volume of my CO2 tank? If so, aren't compressed gasses typically measured in weight, not volume? Bottom line, it looks like a great tool, I'm just not sure how to use it because I can't figure out what my input should be for CO2 volume. Sorry for the novice questions...

Volume of CO2 is the amount of co2 dissolved in solution (beer). AKA, an English Mild will have less volumes than an American light Lager. AKA less carbonation.

 

[Josh1]

Volume of CO2 is the amount of co2 dissolved in solution (beer). AKA, an English Mild will have less volumes than an American light Lager. AKA less carbonation.

Now that makes a whole more sense. Thanks for the help.

 

[Anguslow]

Now, for any of you that want the CORRECT length of hose based upon the principles of physics, mechanical engineering, and fluid mechanics...

l = 1800*d/Q²*(p-0.44h),

where:
l = hose length (ft)
d = hose ID (in)
Q = flow rate (gpm)
p = gage pressure of barrel (psi)
h = height difference between middle of keg and faucet (ft)

So if you've got a keg that you'd like at 12psi, the faucet is 2ft above the middle of the keg, you're using 3/16" tubing, and you'd like a flow rate of 0.7gpm:

l = 1800*0.1875/0.7²*(12-0.44*2) = 9.5ft.

(If the faucet is above the keg, h is positive; if the keg is above the faucet, h is negative.)

Perhaps I am having a complete brainfart, but I am not seeing the same results with this equation to the excel sheet. Plus, no matter how I order the equation, I do not get 9.5 ft. Using the equations available on other sites and entering the numbers provided above, it works out to be 3.7 ft to 4 ft (depending on the equation), which does match the excel sheet. What am I not seeing here? Can someone order the equation so that I can see what is in the numerator and denominator? Finally, there is a box after the 'd', is this a power (2, or 3 perhaps)?

Thanks.

 

[CPooley4]

I don't have the excel sheet in front of me and haven't looked at it in quite some time. However, my guess is the difference in flow rate. Most commercial setups plan for a flow rate of 1 gallon per minute which is a bit strong for most homebrew setups. Don't know if the excel sheet is set up with 1 gallon as the default or not, but more than likely that is the culprit.

I just ran a scenario based upon your number. When I use a flow rate of .7 I get 9.7 feet of line recommended. When I use a flow rate of 1 I get 4.75 feet of line recommended. That's assuming a diameter of .1875" line.

If you'd like you can shoot me your email via pm. I have a kegging calculator/how to built into my Brew Chart. It's not in my published version as I'm still upgrading, but I'd be willing to send it to you ahead of time so you can see what I'm talking about. My kegging calculator allows the user to control the flow rate and diameter of line so that they can dial into their system better.

cp

 

[mattd2]

Finally, there is a box after the 'd', is this a power (2, or 3 perhaps)?

Thanks.

Shame that it has taken this long for someone to reply to your question about the "square" Angus. Since the formula is dealing with flows through a circular tube I would hazard a guess that the "square" is actually meant to be the symbol for squared (i.e. ^2 as you would enter it in excel). I think the formating of the forum probably didn't like using superscript and just blanked it out.
Hope it works out for you.

 

[motobrewer]

uh, CP responded to him within an hour

 

[mattd2]

uh, CP responded to him within an hour

Sorry, should of been more specific about the lack of reply for what the "square" in the formula was... hang on, my reply was specific about that...

Shame that it has taken this long for someone to reply to your question about the "square" Angus.

 

[Rcole]

So say it that way without the unnecessary bs. He'd either agree and unprotect, offer the explanation above that he doesn't have the password anymore, or do nothing. Either way it's his work that he spent his time on and offered here for free for all to use. Those that don't like it or disagree with him can just make their own on their own time and offer it here for free for all to use. All the information is readily accessible to anyone that wants to take the time to do so.

"No good deed goes unpunished."

 

[Bruin]

As another poster said, wow, gonna need a lot of line for my Heff! Regarding different lengths of lines for different styles: Changing line at the tower every time I change styles will be a PITA, so I'm planning on changing the length of the line by splicing on or removing a section of line to meet the line length requirement. I'm going to use some sort of nipple to make the connection. I assume I add the length of the nipple to the shank length? Being that it is a constriction at this point and offers resistance it should be taken into account, no?

 

[dubuddaman]

Ok for every one on here doing this calculator, it isnt much but if you are doing a home brew/ kegerator a foot of restriction is alot. That equals 3 pounds of restriction in the system. So every 4" of 3/16" restrication line is equal to 1 pound of restriction in the line.
Also I do understand why you want to measure from the middle of the keg?? Where is the beer being sucked from?? Not the middle. It is being sucked from the bottom. Micro Matic is the only maker of these stems and valves, and you want to measure from the bottom of the keg to the faucet.

 

[mattd2]

...Also I do understand why you want to measure from the middle of the keg?? Where is the beer being sucked from?? Not the middle. It is being sucked from the bottom. Micro Matic is the only maker of these stems and valves, and you want to measure from the bottom of the keg to the faucet.

They take from the middle of the keg because the liquid will add some hydrostatic pressure to the keg since it is drawn from the bottom. The reason to take the middle is because for half of the keg the assumption will be a bit low and the for the other half a bit high, but all in all it will work out not to bad.

 

[Bitty]

Sorry to dig up an old thread, but this is exactly the kind of tool I've been looking for.

The following password can be used to unprotect the sheet. It's not the original, but it works:

AAAABAABBAAO

Maybe someone more knowledgeable than I could take a look and update it using the latest commonly accepted formulas...?

 

[cmmcp2]

thanks for taking the time (and some abuse) to post this

 

[Snood]

This is great but it does not provide an option for the line diameter I'm using. I'm working on updating this spreadsheet for my needs. I am willing to make other changes which people might be interested in. I am first working on the metric version but if there's the demand I can make the changes to the imperial version too.

 

[HopSong]

I click on the link and it says server not found???

 

[Snood]

He reposted the link on page 2 here.

I'm struggling a little with the line resistance figures used in the calculations. for example, for 3/16 line (4.8mm) it's 0.1518 .. does anyone know what this means? what's the units?

 

[jtkratzer]

Trying to use this calculator...I have 3 faucets and 50' of Bev-Seal 3/16" ID, 4.25" shanks with 3/16" ID. I don't want to change line length for each style of beer. I guess I could get some extra connectors for grossly different pressures, like low carbed ales vs hefe's. Right now, I'd like to keep it simple. Most of my beers are going to be in a similar carb range - blondes, IPAs, alts, etc.

I suppose having different line lengths appropriate for the different styles would be cheaper than using regulator manifolds.

 

[jtkratzer]

I think the 3 way manifold where I can control the pressure on each keg is going to be easier than changing lines all the time. The calculator doesn't go high enough to give an output for hefes and there's roughly a 2.5-3'+ difference between 2.2 and 2.8 volumes across the temperature ranges.

I found a Taprite 3 way for $120 shipped that allows me to go from 0-50 psi for each body.

 

[Redbeard5289]

repin for myself.

Love the spreadsheet. Looking forward to using it a lot soon.
Redbeard5289

 

[day_trippr]

I think the 3 way manifold where I can control the pressure on each keg is going to be easier than changing lines all the time.[...]

If you actually want to carb different brews to style and have them on tap simultaneously and maintain those carb levels, then a multi-pressure regulator setup is pretty much mandatory.

But that isn't going to solve a foam problem. If you want to keep your wheaties at 3.5+ volumes, you're going to need beer line that can handle it - and it's going to be longer than what you'd need for a typical 2.5 volume ale.

So you can worst-case it and put like 15 footers on all taps. Seems like overkill when there's an alternative: go with ten footers all around - which will work great for ~2.5 volumes and below - and then stick an epoxy mixer or two down the keg out tube on your more effervescent wheat beers...

Cheers!